December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[mic505]

Hopefully. Current TPE franchise expires 2023. Northern's 2025. Liverpool-LSP-Manchester Airport DMU route is currently operated by Class 14X and 15X units until December 2019 when their new 195 CAF takes over as a Northern Connect route.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool-LSP-Manchester Airport DMU route is currently operated by Class 14X and 15X units until December 2019 when their new 195 CAF takes over as a Northern Connect route.

195s will be introduced from the winter and will be gradually introduced over around 12 months. Routes won't change for 14x and 15x on every service to 195s on every service overnight, it'll be a gradual introduction with 'Northern Connect' officially launched when enough 195s, 331s and refurbished 158s are in service to run all services on all Connect designated routes.

 

[Starmill]

Hopefully some details will become available about what changes are going ahead within the next couple of months.

It would be useful, to my mind, if this thread could be used to then focus on this.

I understand that significant changes are still expected in Scotland, and minor tinkering is expected elsewhere.

There has been some debate about the meaning of this 'moratorium' on timetable changes for Northern. One school of thought is that the current timetable will broadly be preserved with some tinkering. Another seems to be that it will be changed as much as possible to reflect the timetable as it should have been in May 2018, and as was uploaded earlier this year for us all to see, before being taken down again, insofar as rolling stock permits.

The majority of May 2018 improvements were actuall delayed 2017 ones. Another round was to be due in 2019. It will be very interesting indeed to see what actually does happen if it transpires that there is scope for nothing more than tinkering this December. Hopefully at least some things can go ahead this year.

 

[pt_mad]

Presumably there may be a good possibility that LNR will run class 230s on the Bedford to Bletchley line from December if it's true that two are already in LNR livery at Long Marston.

Also maybe a 172 on the Coventry to Nuneaton local services?

 

[nw1]

Manchester to Cardiff will be getting brand new trains to replace the 158s and 175s currently used.

There does seem to be a lot of this at the moment, spend money on new trains to replace not-that-old ones. How old are the 175s? About 1999/2000?
Why not save a bit of money by pairing up the 175s (i.e single-175 services become 2x175), retaining the 158s (they are still well under 35, which formerly was the typical lifespan of a unit, cf. the Southern Region slam doors - both the CIG/VEP generation and their COR predecessors - and still-existent, for a year or two at least, 455s) and bring in some really quite new 185s to top up the fleet?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Will Northwich be gaining its second weekday service per hour and its hourly Sunday service? (Already delayed by a year by the time Dec comes around!)

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Waiting for official news whether the new Chester/E Port to Leeds service will be included as it was dropped from the May timetable change, not raising my hopes though.

 

[northwichcat]

West Midlands Trains have submitted a track access application rescinding their previous request for December 2018 changes, saying they wish the rights to be changed to May 2019.

Will Northwich be gaining its second weekday service per hour and its hourly Sunday service? (Already delayed by a year by the time Dec comes around!)

Waiting for official news whether the new Chester/E Port to Leeds service will be included as it was dropped from the May timetable change, not raising my hopes though.

It seems the only things that are certain is Northern won't be planning for an electric service on the Bolton corridor as Network Rail are again unable to give a confirmed finish date and that they have to fit any additional/re-timed services around existing ones.

 

[scrapy]

Will Northwich be gaining its second weekday service per hour and its hourly Sunday service? (Already delayed by a year by the time Dec comes around!)

Waiting for official news whether the new Chester/E Port to Leeds service will be included as it was dropped from the May timetable change, not raising my hopes though.

Both unlikely to happen in December. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't happen until December 2019. I'm hearing any timetable changes will be minor to improve punctuality and take advantage of electrification rather than introduce new services. I have heard the Leeds services from Blackpool may be reinstated though.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern Director Liam Sumpter is scheduled to give an update at a TfN meeting being held in Sheffield next Thursday afternoon. The meeting is open to the press and public (except they will be thrown out for one 'confidential' item which is a separate item to the one Sumpter will be present for.) So if anyone wants to go the details are:
Venue: Room 6, Mercure Sheffield St Paul’s Hotel & Spa, 119 Norfolk Street, Sheffield S1 2JE
Time: 14.30-16.30
https://transportforthenorth.com/calendar/rail-north-committee-13-september-2018/

 

[Killingworth]

There may also be clues at Northern's Stakeholder Conference in Manchester tomorrow. There weren't!

 

[northwichcat]

Will Northwich be gaining its second weekday service per hour and its hourly Sunday service? (Already delayed by a year by the time Dec comes around!)

Both unlikely to happen in December. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't happen until December 2019. I'm hearing any timetable changes will be minor to improve punctuality and take advantage of electrification rather than introduce new services. I have heard the Leeds services from Blackpool may be reinstated though.

Yesterday Northern 'cancelled' a Chester to Manchester service due to a train fault and then ran 'an additional service' 60 minutes later and that was despite ATW diverting their services along Mid-Cheshire due to engineering works. There should be no issues getting units or paths to run the additional Sunday services (especially considering most Sunday services are booked as 2 x 2 car currently), any issues would relate to staffing and Northern should have had arrangements in place for that almost 12 months ago. Given the problems with Saturday overcrowding (when the trains are actually running) an enhanced service on Sunday would probably help with that if an enhanced Saturday service isn't possible.

 

[scrapy]

Yesterday Northern 'cancelled' a Chester to Manchester service due to a train fault and then ran 'an additional service' 60 minutes later and that was despite ATW diverting their services along Mid-Cheshire due to engineering works. There should be no issues getting units or paths to run the additional Sunday services (especially considering most Sunday services are booked as 2 x 2 car currently), any issues would relate to staffing and Northern should have had arrangements in place for that almost 12 months ago. Given the problems with Saturday overcrowding (when the trains are actually running) an enhanced service on Sunday would probably help with that if an enhanced Saturday service isn't possible.

I agree with you. I just can't see Northern rushing to add extra services when they are having 'planned cancellations' every week. The enhanced Sunday services along with those on the Stoke line should have started last year but were blamed on electrification delays but were really due to staff shortages. Those shortages still exist and it seems no one is able or willing to hold Northern to account despite it being a franchise requirement.

 

[geoffk]

Waiting for official news whether the new Chester/E Port to Leeds service will be included as it was dropped from the May timetable change, not raising my hopes though.

I think the expectation is no major changes for Northern but minor adjustments and locally based changes that have limited wider impact may be possible. For example, on my local line, the Calder Valley, there are some odd stopping patterns in the evenings. Even reinstating Leeds - Blackpool through services is not straightforward as it requires retiming on one side of Preston.

 

[timj]

Are the draft timetables for the new internal Scottish HST services available anywhere?

 

[Aictos]

I think the expectation is no major changes for Northern but minor adjustments and locally based changes that have limited wider impact may be possible. For example, on my local line, the Calder Valley, there are some odd stopping patterns in the evenings. Even reinstating Leeds - Blackpool through services is not straightforward as it requires retiming on one side of Preston.

Why do the Blackpool to Leeds services need reinstating? Why did they go in the first place? What's covering the route atm?

I've looked on RTT and there only seems to be a daily service first thing in morning and last thing at night

 

[northwichcat]

Why do the Blackpool to Leeds services need reinstating? Why did they go in the first place? What's covering the route atm?

I've looked on RTT and there only seems to be a daily service first thing in morning and last thing at night

It was changed so that a EMU shuttle could run Blackpool-Preston freeing up a DMU for other services, in the same way that Liverpool-Blackpool was temporarily broken up before Blackpool was electrified so that EMUs could run Liverpool-Preston, which freed up DMUs to replace the TPE 170s.

 

[Aictos]

It was changed so that a EMU shuttle could run Blackpool-Preston freeing up a DMU for other services, in the same way that Liverpool-Blackpool was temporarily broken up before Blackpool was electrified so that EMUs could run Liverpool-Preston, which freed up DMUs to replace the TPE 170s.

So the only way that direct services between BPN and YRK to be reinstated is either electrifying Preston to York via Blackburn or hope that a internal cascade of DMUs will allow this to happen?

In any case I hope this is only temporarily and the York to Blackpool services get reinstated in full.

 

[northwichcat]

So the only way that direct services between BPN and YRK to be reinstated is either electrifying Preston to York via Blackburn or hope that a internal cascade of DMUs will allow this to happen?

In any case I hope this is only temporarily and the York to Blackpool services get reinstated in full.

Electrifying Preston to York via Blackburn isn't going to happen. It's going to be reinstated as a through diesel service but the lack of usable electrics between Manchester and Preston combined with the non-delivery of 769s left Northern short of DMUs.

 

[Killingworth]

Northern Director Liam Sumpter is scheduled to give an update at a TfN meeting being held in Sheffield next Thursday afternoon. The meeting is open to the press and public (except they will be thrown out for one 'confidential' item which is a separate item to the one Sumpter will be present for.) So if anyone wants to go the details are:
Venue: Room 6, Mercure Sheffield St Paul’s Hotel & Spa, 119 Norfolk Street, Sheffield S1 2JE
Time: 14.30-16.30
https://transportforthenorth.com/calendar/rail-north-committee-13-september-2018/

Transport for the North's Board meeting is 12.00 - 14.00. I don't know about public access to that but it covers a much wider brief. The Rail North committee meeting is 14.30 to 16.30

 

[northwichcat]

Transport for the North's Board meeting is 12.00 - 14.00. I don't know about public access to that but it covers a much wider brief. The Rail North committee meeting is 14.30 to 16.30

"Transport for the North Board, Scrutiny and Audit and Governance committee meetings are open to the public, however, in order to fulfil our obligations on commercial confidentiality and data protection, the public will be excluded from being present for certain agenda items at meetings where confidential or ‘exempt’ information is discussed."

There's no exempt items mentioned in the agenda and Jo Johnson and the Northern MD have been invited (it's not confirmed they will attend): https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-0-TfN-Board-Agenda-13.09.2018.pdf

 

[Killingworth]

"Transport for the North Board, Scrutiny and Audit and Governance committee meetings are open to the public, however, in order to fulfil our obligations on commercial confidentiality and data protection, the public will be excluded from being present for certain agenda items at meetings where confidential or ‘exempt’ information is discussed."

There's no exempt items mentioned in the agenda and Jo Johnson and the Northern MD have been invited (it's not confirmed they will attend): https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-0-TfN-Board-Agenda-13.09.2018.pdf

Sods law, I have a meeting to attend in Glossop tomorrow morning and doubt I can get back in time for either session - might just catch Rail North.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree with you. I just can't see Northern rushing to add extra services when they are having 'planned cancellations' every week. The enhanced Sunday services along with those on the Stoke line should have started last year but were blamed on electrification delays but were really due to staff shortages. Those shortages still exist and it seems no one is able or willing to hold Northern to account despite it being a franchise requirement.

Just checked and the excuse they gave for not introducing the Sunday services at the December 17 timetable change was Mid-Cheshire and Hazel Grove services continued to Southport and it would be too complicated to revise the 'South Manchester' group services separately to the Southport services, so given they revised the Southport services at May 18 to no longer continue to Chester or Hazel Grove their excuse expired then.

 

[scrapy]

Just checked and the excuse they gave for not introducing the Sunday services at the December 17 timetable change was Mid-Cheshire and Hazel Grove services continued to Southport and it would be too complicated to revise the 'South Manchester' group services separately to the Southport services, so given they revised the Southport services at May 18 to no longer continue to Chester or Hazel Grove their excuse expired then.

I does seem that was purely an excuse and it expired in May so i dont know what their excuse was in May. It wouldn't have been complicated, as the services to Southport were hourly. Just have an hourly Chester to Southport. The extra Hazel Grove trains were 2 hourly and were not a franchise requirement. They were simply introduced because otherwise the unit sat at Stockport for an hour and TFGM persuaded Northern under Serco Abellio that the cost of sending it to Hazel Grove would be covered by extra revenue.

If Northern wanted to exceed the franchise agreement to Hazel Grove last December they could have put on an hourly electric shuttle. The real reason is clearly the same as now that they cannot be sure of staffing levels for Sunday's although the problem now seems to be shortages of drivers rather than guards.

This just seems another of Northern excuses that seems to be accepted without challenge by the DFT and TFN. The extra Stoke services that were supposed to start at the same time did not extend to Southport, what was their excuse there?

 

[thejuggler]

"Transport for the North Board, Scrutiny and Audit and Governance committee meetings are open to the public, however, in order to fulfil our obligations on commercial confidentiality and data protection, the public will be excluded from being present for certain agenda items at meetings where confidential or ‘exempt’ information is discussed."

There's no exempt items mentioned in the agenda and Jo Johnson and the Northern MD have been invited (it's not confirmed they will attend): https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-0-TfN-Board-Agenda-13.09.2018.pdf

The meeting didn't go well when TPE suggested short stopping at York:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...etable-rejected-by-northern-leaders-1-9348646

 

[Kite159]

The meeting didn't go well when TPE suggested short stopping at York:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...etable-rejected-by-northern-leaders-1-9348646

Can someone post the article to avoid the advert infested website

 

[geoffk]

Electrifying Preston to York via Blackburn isn't going to happen. It's going to be reinstated as a through diesel service but the lack of usable electrics between Manchester and Preston combined with the non-delivery of 769s left Northern short of DMUs.

The Preston - Blackpool shuttle does not connect into or out of the Leeds train at Preston so reinstatement of the through service will require retiming of one or the other.

 

[Aictos]

Can someone post the article to avoid the advert infested website

You own me one

Rail bosses were today condemned as “cack-handed” by a northern metro mayor after it emerged they were planning to to introduce a interim timetable that would cut short services in North Yorkshire.

Political leaders rejected plans by TransPennine Express for a timetable change from October 15 to see it through the autumn period to December, when longer-term changes are promised to improve its under-performing service.

The recommendations prompted a furious response from Ben Houchen, the Conservative metro mayor of Tees Valley, who brought them up at a Transport for the North board meeting in Sheffield today. Mr Houchen said the changes would see five off-peak trains a day from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport via Thirsk and Northallerton, terminate at York, while five trains in the other direction would start their journey in York.

On the route from Newcastle to Manchester Airport via Darlington, five direct services would be removed completely, with the following three trains starting at York. From Manchester Airport, eight services on this route would run to York only. Trans-Pennine rail £2.9bn upgrade will cause five years of route closures, longer journeys and less capacity He called on TransPennine managing director Leo Goodwin, who was taking questions at the meeting, to withdraw the proposal and said the operator has not learned the lessons from this summer’s timetable chaos. The seven-week timetable change was later rejected at a meeting of the Rail North board, which manages the TransPennine franchise. During the earlier meeting Mr Goodwin and representatives from Network Rail and fellow operator Northern were heavily criticised for their response to the botched introduction of a new timetable.

Greater Manchester metro mayor Andy Burnham said the performance of the two operators was still worse than this time last year, while fellow Labour politician Judith Blake, the leader of Leeds city council, criticised the continued short-forming of trains. Mr Goodwin said changes planned for December would bring bring about “stable services for passengers” but that the operator had been asked to further stabilise service ahead of this point. He said the proposal was a recommendation and would give customers extra flexibility. He added that arrangements like this had been put forward in previous autumns, where leaf fall often causes a problem for trains, and that this year’s was similar in scale to that 12 months ago. He said: “We have put this proposal forward to give passengers a more predictable and reliable service ahead of the structural changes planned for December.”

But Mr Houchen said the proposal was “not good enough”, adding that his office had only been informed about the plans the previous afternoon. “What you’re coming forward with is a cack-handed proposal which you is similar to last year but is actually very different. “You are asking us to make a decision on something without all of the facts, it puts us in a very difficult position.” A decision on whether the interim timetable would be introduced was due to be made this afternoon by the board of Rail North, which helps manage the Northern and TransPennine franchises. Though Rail North meetings are held in public, today’s at the Mercure hotel in Sheffield city centre was held almost entirely behind closed doors as the items being discussed were commercially sensitive.

Read more at: https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...etable-rejected-by-northern-leaders-1-9348646

 

[scrapy]

The Preston - Blackpool shuttle does not connect into or out of the Leeds train at Preston so reinstatement of the through service will require retiming of one or the other.

Northern have the paths to reinstate the Leeds service, (which would need 2 additional diesel units) with the shuttle (and its timings) would be discontinued. The provisional plan is for half or all Buckshaw terminators to be 319 operated, releasing 2 or 4 diesel units (the one off the Blackpool shuttles would definitely be spare). These are 150s and 142s which will probably be swapped onto other routes releasing 158s for Blackpool to Leeds.

The operational benefits are that there would in theory be reduced congestion through Preston as there would be an hourly through service in each direction rather than 2 services that terminate and return back in the opposite directions, blocking the platforms whilst they do this and it should also make the service more reliable as Blackpool crews would start from their home depot rather than having to rely on a separate pass ride to start from Preston.

 

[philjo]

There was a recent update from our local RUG. GTR are planning to have the May 2018 Thameslink timetable implemented by December. Also in the December timetable the evening Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn services will leave 3 minutes earlier at xx:09 and xx:39 which allows for the half hourly calls at Letchworth and Royston to be reinstated.