December 2021 Timetable change

[BrianW]

The down side of short connections is that some people might actually prefer a longer connection on a long distance journey to have a break/coffee/sandwich/fresh air.

I recall and still enjoy the thought that the journey might actually be relaxing and enjoyable- so no need for as break; a coffee and/or sandwich available on the train (and consumable seated in the buffet car); and fresh air at New Street? !

Another downside of short connections- when one train is delayed. I seem to recall an attempt to place connections at New Street at the heart of matters with the introduction of WCML electric services back in the day. OK if/when all ran to time. What to hold if not, losing connections further up or down the line.

So which journey pairs are you prioritisng there? As I said above the northbound south coast services arrive at xx.50, a NE/SW goes at xx.12. That is a connection. The northbound SW service doesn't connect into a Reading/Bournemouth because it doesn't need to. Cheltenham to Banbury and Oxford is a tiny flow and better served via Didcot and International and Coventry you would change for an Avanti or WMT that does connect? The same applies to the southbound SW services, what journey pairing are you trying to do that doesn't connect into a WMT, TfW or Avanti service?
What you are asking for is for New St to be hamstrung by forcing cross platform connections which can only be done on a limited amount of platforms anyway?

Maybe with 2tph each way A/B and C/D and thus trains at e.g. xx00, 15, 30 and 45 with min 12 min connections it would be possible to arrange something reasonably acceptable and regular for XC journeys like Manchester/ Newcastle > < Bournemouth/ Plymouth?

 

[Ianno87]

I recall and still enjoy the thought that the journey might actually be relaxing and enjoyable- so no need for as break; a coffee and/or sandwich available on the train (and consumable seated in the buffet car); and fresh air at New Street? !

Don't forget that it is often claimed on this forum that New Street is in-navigable and confusing. So a 12 minute connection is probably not enough for folks unfamiliar with the station.

 

[Starmill]

Which ones don't have connections now? You need 12 minutes for a connection at New St. The northbound Reading/Bournemouth arrives at xx.50 with the SW/NE going at xx.03. The southbound Manchester arrives xx.58 with the NE/SW going at xx.12?

Exeter, Taunton or Bristol to Macclesfield, Stockport or Manchester. In 2019 a range of direct trains all day. Now, zero through trains and a xx56 arrival for xx57 departure, so typically 61 minutes.

The one exception being the service from Plymouth which is the 1527 arrival at Birmingham New Street, connecting with the 1557 to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Bikeman78]

Don't forget that it is often claimed on this forum that New Street is in-navigable and confusing. So a 12 minute connection is probably not enough for folks unfamiliar with the station.

Hence my suggestion that the connections should be cross platform. The Dutch manage this at several locations every 15/30 minutes with three minute dwell times. Admittedly they have spent the last three decades upgrading the track and stations to achieve this.

 

[Austriantrain]

Hence my suggestion that the connections should be cross platform. The Dutch manage this at several locations every 15/30 minutes with three minute dwell times. Admittedly they have spent the last three decades upgrading the track and stations to achieve this.

So have the Swiss. And the Germans will have to invest billions for their Takt (a good investment IMHO, but I doubt that anyone in the UK would be prepared to pay for it).

 

[JRT]

In a previous timetable, can't remember how many years ago, trains were a basic hourly service on each leg, but had a 15-min layover at New Street, so arrive 48 dep 03 and I think arrive 45 dep 00.

 

[Ianno87]

Hence my suggestion that the connections should be cross platform. The Dutch manage this at several locations every 15/30 minutes with three minute dwell times. Admittedly they have spent the last three decades upgrading the track and stations to achieve this.

So how do you manage that between a Manchester-Bournemouth service (that naturally wants to be in Platform 1/2/3) and a Edinburgh-Plymouth service (that wants to be in Platform 10/11/12) without extensive rebuilding the approaches to New Street or killing capacity?

Is that even the most important connection? Might there actually be more people who want to (say) make local connections within the West Midlands?

 

[irish_rail]

Is that even the most important connection? Might there actually be more people who want to (say) make local connections within the West Midlands?

Most people travelling from the south west on XC are going further than a suburb of Birmingham. Its amazing when I travel to the north west (say) and the amount of people who i recognise on the next train heading up the WCML who where also on the XC arrival from Plymouth.
The Midlands aren't in reality much of a destination, more of a necessary evil to be crossed on route to the north west and Yorkshire.

 

[GoneSouth]

The down side of short connections is that some people might actually prefer a longer connection on a long distance journey to have a break/coffee/sandwich/fresh air.

This is Birmingham we’re talking about, nothing very fresh about the air beneath a shopping centre with Diesel engines chugging away all day

Don't forget that it is often claimed on this forum that New Street is in-navigable and confusing. So a 12 minute connection is probably not enough for folks unfamiliar with the station.

To be fair it is confusing if you don’t know it well. If you happen to go up the stairs at the wrong end of the platform you might need more than 12 minutes of connection time to navigate back to where you need to be.

As we do have almost an hour wait at the moment, anybody have a recommendation for a good pub close by?

 

[30907]

Plymouth/Bristol/Cheltenham towards Manchester is currently a poor connection. Likewise coming from Newcastle heading towards Banbury and Reading. Who knows, maybe there is little demand for such journeys.

But in the opposite direction the connection is excellent. That seems to me a tolerable solution - short of rewriting the whole timetable - in that it shares the pain equally. There are other services north and east of Birmingham which partly make up for the deficiency, though not directly to Manchester/beyond Derby.

 

[DaveHarries]

Thanks for the comments on my previous post, it is good to hear of the half hourly service to Severn Beach as that's been desirable for ages. There's certainly plenty of trains running it would appear, but it would be nice to have a reliable service again. The lack of faith in TfW and WMR actually running when I want to go out certainly doesn't help!

Hourly to Severn Beach: I don't think a 30-minute frequency up to there would work. As a user of that line myself on Mondays to Fridays the extra services will be very useful even if I will have to get up slightly earlier to get the train that gets me into work for 0830. I usually find myself on 2K07 - 0747 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads (as it is at present; soon to be 0733 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads) - and it is normally well loaded on arrival at its destination.

I am also glad to see the increase by GWR in the number of services between Devon & Cornwall and Bristol Temple Meads. I like doing jaunts to Plymouth when work chooses to send me there but the potentially 2 hour wait for a direct train to Bristol Temple Meads is a nuisance.

Dave

 

[sonic2009]

In a previous timetable, can't remember how many years ago, trains were a basic hourly service on each leg, but had a 15-min layover at New Street, so arrive 48 dep 03 and I think arrive 45 dep 00.

Are you talking about the XC services from the South West - North East? I've always known them to come in about xx56 and go at xx03, as they have to slot in behind the local cross city services once they get to Kings Norton.

 

[gazzaa2]

And now they're getting packed trains on a weekend due to stock and crew shortages & cancellations! The industry evidently needs a complete weekend revamp but as I think I said upthread, I doubt this is happening in Dec '21 and even May '22 might be a stretch for some TOCs. For me Saturday's have been broadly OK but Sunday is worse than ever.

A lot of engineering works are thrown in at weekends as well.

 

[Bishopstone]

Not seen mention of Southern in this thread, but it appears that:

- Gatwick Express is back, as a 2tph Victoria-Brighton fast service calling only at the airport, off-peak. Because of the airport station improvement works, there wouldn’t have been the old 4tph service in any event.
- In consequence, Haywards Heath and East Croydon lose 2tph to Brighton/Victoria, versus the situation today. The ‘red trains’ are presently calling at both under the Southern banner, in similar paths to GatEx.
- Uckfield is back to hourly, off peak: currently two-hourly.
- Brighton to Hove shuttles are back, 2tph, for the 313 bashers.

What isn’t returning in December:

- Brighton-Lewes shuttles (was 2tph)
- Brighton-West Worthing stoppers (was 2tph)
- Brighton-Ore (was 1tph, though there is an hourly Brighton-Hastings semi-fast at the opposite half-hour, as now)
- East Grinstead half-hourly (still only 1tph between peaks)
- The odd gaps in the otherwise 2tph service on Victoria-East Coastway, and also the Seaford branch
- The x2 Eastbourne-London Bridge services in both directions with the peak flow. Also the Seaford portion of a Victoria peak working in both directions, so no joining/splitting at Lewes for the forseeable

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not seen mention of Southern in this thread, but it appears that:

- Gatwick Express is back, as a 2tph Victoria-Brighton fast service calling only at the airport, off-peak. Because of the airport station improvement works, there wouldn’t have been the old 4tph service in any event.
- In consequence, Haywards Heath and East Croydon lose 2tph to Brighton/Victoria, versus the situation today. The ‘red trains’ are presently calling at both under the Southern banner, in similar paths to GatEx.
- Uckfield is back to hourly, off peak: currently two-hourly.
- Brighton to Hove shuttles are back, 2tph, for the 313 bashers.

What isn’t returning in December:

- Brighton-Lewes shuttles (was 2tph)
- Brighton-West Worthing stoppers (was 2tph)
- Brighton-Ore (was 1tph, though there is an hourly Brighton-Hastings semi-fast at the opposite half-hour, as now)
- East Grinstead half-hourly (still only 1tph between peaks)
- The odd gaps in the otherwise 2tph service on Victoria-East Coastway, and also the Seaford branch
- The x2 Eastbourne-London Bridge services in both directions with the peak flow. Also the Seaford portion of a Victoria peak working in both directions, so no joining/splitting at Lewes for the forseeable

Remember, a lot of the stuff that is returning should be in the current WTT anyway, but was removed in September due to GTR's crew shortages. The exception are the Gatwick Express services, not sure why they have been bought back to be honest.

And that's why some stuff like East Grinstead half hourly, Brighton - Ore and so forth haven't returned yet as GTR do not have enough drivers for the service. S

Some of that stuff like London Bridge - Eastbourne though, I don't think will ever come back, at least not for years.

 

[Ianno87]

. The exception are the Gatwick Express services, not sure why they have been bought back to be honest.

Just hopped on a (Friday evening) Stansted Express - most seats were still occupied at Bishop's Stortford Airport-bound. Some semblance of air travel demand is starting to return.

 

[jfisher21]

London Bridge - London Victoria is still missing too.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Just hopped on a (Friday evening) Stansted Express - most seats were still occupied at Bishop's Stortford Airport-bound. Some semblance of air travel demand is starting to return.

I get that, but I don't get why they didn't just leave the service as it was a Southern service from London Victoria - Brighton calling at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath. Now they've upped the prices, removed the East Croydon and Haywards Heath stops and pretty much guaranteed the trains will cart around a lot of fresh air.

London Bridge - London Victoria is still missing too.

Those will return eventually as they are still running on Saturday and GTR being short on train crew will be the main reason why they are still gone.

To be honest, if a service group is running on Saturday for GTR, I would expect it to eventually be reintroduced for SX.

If its not running on Saturday, its probably gone for good.

 

[Kite159]

Now they've upped the prices, removed the East Croydon and Haywards Heath stops and pretty much guaranteed the trains will cart around a lot of fresh air.

Agreed, back to being the tourist trap of thinking it's the fastest way between London & Gatwick which will have the effect of being ignored by those not wanting to be ripped off by paying the premium and cause the other Southern branded services to carry the airport traffic.

 

[Ianno87]

Agreed, back to being the tourist trap of thinking it's the fastest way between London & Gatwick which will have the effect of being ignored by those not wanting to be ripped off by paying the premium and cause the other Southern branded services to carry the airport traffic.

Right now, the railway needs to maximise revenue per passenger, so if people are turning up and paying Gat Ex fares, then Gat Ex should be running.

 

[Bishopstone]

I get that, but I don't get why they didn't just leave the service as it was a Southern service from London Victoria - Brighton calling at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath. Now they've upped the prices, removed the East Croydon and Haywards Heath stops and pretty much guaranteed the trains will cart around a lot of fresh air.

GatEx resuming allows this forum to pick-up with the long threads about what is a TOC versus what is a brand, and the instruction of m’learned friends to recover the £2 difference in fare. This is the price you pay for wishing ‘everything was normal again’.

Anyway, I hope the GWR and Great Northern mobs have treated our red trains well, and I hope they enjoy their last few weeks with them.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Right now, the railway needs to maximise revenue per passenger, so if people are turning up and paying Gat Ex fares, then Gat Ex should be running.

I get that, but what evidence is there that people will actually pay to use the Gatwick Express and won't just use Southern and Thameslink services instead which are equally as fast. Obviously some people will, but I don't know whether its financially worth it. Particularly re adding the Sunday Victoria - Gatwick Airport only services which are going to be really empty.

 

[dk1]

Just hopped on a (Friday evening) Stansted Express - most seats were still occupied at Bishop's Stortford Airport-bound. Some semblance of air travel demand is starting to return.

So good to hear that.

 

[philjo]

Are there any plans to restore 12 coaches to the peak GN Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn services ?
A few months ago you could have a bay of 4 seats to yourself plus also the empty bay opposite.
The 16:39 from Kings Cross this evening had all seats taken plus people sitting on the floor and in luggage racks. This is a Kings Lynn service which is used by commuters as well as those going home after a day out in London so has Always been busy. 8 coaches is no longer sufficient on this service and also the 17:12 Ely service.

 

[Llandudno]

Are there any plans to restore 12 coaches to the peak GN Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn services ?
A few months ago you could have a bay of 4 seats to yourself plus also the empty bay opposite.
The 16:39 from Kings Cross this evening had all seats taken plus people sitting on the floor and in luggage racks. This is a Kings Lynn service which is used by commuters as well as those going home after a day out in London so has Always been busy. 8 coaches is no longer sufficient on this service and also the 17:12 Ely service.

Blimey, 8 coaches luxury!

Try squeezing on the two car services on EMR’s Nottingham - Liverpool or TfW’s Chester - Holyhead routes!

 

[Ianno87]

Are there any plans to restore 12 coaches to the peak GN Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn services ?
A few months ago you could have a bay of 4 seats to yourself plus also the empty bay opposite.
The 16:39 from Kings Cross this evening had all seats taken plus people sitting on the floor and in luggage racks. This is a Kings Lynn service which is used by commuters as well as those going home after a day out in London so has Always been busy. 8 coaches is no longer sufficient on this service and also the 17:12 Ely service.

1639 has never been 12-car IIRC (but always very busy)

 

[philjo]

1639 has never been 12-car IIRC (but always very busy)

It has been 12 coaches for a few years before last year. There was a time the old 8 coach 16:44 departure had all seats taken over 10 minutes before departure and some days you struggled to board it at all. It was extended to 12 coaches in 2016 or 2017. Even then it was common for all seats to be taken running as 12 coaches.

 

[Ianno87]

It has been 12 coaches for a few years before last year. There was a time the old 8 coach 16:44 departure had all seats taken over 10 minutes before departure and some days you struggled to board it at all. It was extended to 12 coaches in 2016 or 2017. Even then it was common for all seats to be taken running as 12 coaches.

No, the 1614 was made 12-car about that time, but don't think the 1644 was.

 

[bramling]

1639 has never been 12-car IIRC (but always very busy)

Not quite; if it’s the service I’m thinking of it was meant to go from 8 to 12 in the original May 2020 timetable, but a little event got in the way…

If I remember I’ll have a look tomorrow.

 

[OFFDN]

One of the issues over the past 18months with the 1txx has been platforming at Cambridge. Some of the 1t must use platform 1 but due to signal sighting in platform 1 for 12 carriage 387’s, an extra driver is needed to dispatch the train competently. Obviously the extra cost of an extra driver per train is not ideal, so has not been approved and hence not all trains run as 12 carriages when they could. Not really GTRs call to make..