December 2023 Timetable Change

[NorthKent1989]

Is there a link to the timetable change on the southeastern website

There are no substantial changes to SE we’re still stuck with Decembers 2022’s useless change

 

[dk1]

Surely the problem was that practical training couldn’t take place as it required two people to be together in a confined space for a purpose that wasn’t immediately necessary.

As has been said several times, Greater Anglia led the way on this. With cooperation from ASLEF driver courses and in cab training in ‘bubbles’ were started within a month or two and continued throughout the pandemic.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As has been said several times, Greater Anglia led the way on this. With cooperation from ASLEF driver courses and in cab training in ‘bubbles’ were started within a month or two and continued throughout the pandemic.

That sort of thing was extremely subjective tho, ie what clearly worked for GA wouldn't necessarily have worked for TPE. Just the geographical locations of traincrew depots, the training centre(s), simulators, staff locations etc would have a major impact. Route learning for TPE might rely heavily on riding Northern/LNER services which would then make them interdependent on another TOCs policies etc.

 

[dk1]

That sort of thing was extremely subjective tho, ie what clearly worked for GA wouldn't necessarily have worked for TPE. Just the geographical locations of traincrew depots, the training centre(s), simulators, staff locations etc would have a major impact. Route learning for TPE might rely heavily on riding Northern/LNER services which would then make them interdependent on another TOCs policies etc.

I think where there was a will there was a way of achieving training at that time. Some TOCs excelled were as others just failed miserably with the resulting chaos we have and continue to see.

 

[AndrewE]

The other thing not mentioned yet is that Avanti were sitting on a demographic time-bomb - and knew it. I believe that they (or Virgin before them ) poached lots of experienced drivers from other TOCs, but the other side of that coin was that there was an absolute avalanche of retirements likely to happen about now.
Proudly reducing costs during Covid might have pleased Avanti's shareholders (or the DfT), but ignoring an oncoming wave of retirements was gross negligence. As has been said above, there was a way of keeping training going, given the willpower.

 

[DanNCL]

Apologies if already mentioned. Looks line Teesside Airport is re-gaining its weekly parliamentary service in the December 2023 timetable. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W32450/2024-02-11/detailed

 

[Anvil1984]

Apologies if already mentioned. Looks line Teesside Airport is re-gaining its weekly parliamentary service in the December 2023 timetable. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W32450/2024-02-11/detailed

Same thing appeared in the timetable (even the public pdf one which I think is still on the website ) for May and didn’t happen. I don’t think it’s worth getting excited about until it happens

 

[josh-j]

Well clearly someone messed up at TPE. We're told that a lot of the issues are around staffing levels and training, so why weren't these resolved during the covid restrictions when fewer people were travelling. It seems to me that this would have been the perfect time to upskill crews on the new units and start to recruit and train new staff to replace those that were coming to the ends of their careers. But instead of having all the crews and units available (subject to the dispute being resolved), TP are cutting back services and mothballing perfectly good trains. The DfT need to get their fingers out that's for sure, but they are far from alone in the blame.

The DFT and government are ultimately to blame in my opinion even if there have been private sector failings. They granted the franchise in the first place. They are responsible for all the current arrangements, and now the OLR runs the thing anyway.

They are the ones who decide trains aren't worth spending money on. Who else is there to blame? It is public transport after all. If people in the old TPE franchise messed up so badly, then the government should have done something about it instead of continually cutting everything back and using the subsequent failure to justify even more cuts.

Sorry, rant (not directed at you Bantamzen!) over...

 

[Andyh82]

I am very sad to see the TPE massacre of their north route timetable. Taken from a little earlier in the thread, the pathetic 2024 off peak hourly service is apparently:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street
• Scarborough – York
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper

For historical comparison, I've attached extracts of the standard off peak patterns in the May 2007 and May 2016 timetables to illustrate just how far backwards they are taking things.

2 expresses per hour Leeds to Manchester even 6 car just won’t be able to cope, they’ll all be full and standing throughout. Imagine a Saturday when there is a match on at either Leeds or Huddersfield

That will then result in the Northern Calder valley service, which is often 3 car also being full and standing

And in regards to your extracts of old timetables, I think 4 fast trains per hour with some calls at either Dewsbury or Stalybridge had been the pattern since at least Northern Spirit days if not during Regional Railways

The various mayors etc need to keep the pressure on that this is only temporary and it doesn’t become permanent like a lot of COVID temporary timetables. I wonder what the baseline for what the improvements after TRU will be based on, as we could just end up with the same as a decade ago.

 

[CAF397]

And in regards to your extracts of old timetables, I think 4 fast trains per hour with some calls at either Dewsbury or Stalybridge had been the pattern since at least Northern Spirit days if not during Regional Railways

These are from the September 91 to May 92 timetable between Manchester and Huddersfield (and Wakefield/Leeds).

The usual pattern was 3 fast between Manchester Piccadilly/Leeds & vv with a Wakefield to Manchester Victoria 'stopper'.

The fast ones would've been a Liverpool-Scarborough and (eventually) 2 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough/Newcastles

 

[507020]

2 expresses per hour Leeds to Manchester even 6 car just won’t be able to cope, they’ll all be full and standing throughout.

While this is obviously a given and Calder Valley services will be equally unable to cope, I do hope that the through stoppers Piccadilly - Leeds and Piccadilly - Castleford - York when they run will be able to abstract some through passengers to at least make some dent in the level of overcrowding.

These are from the September 91 to May 92 timetable between Manchester and Huddersfield (and Wakefield/Leeds).

Did this coincide with the Manchester Victoria vandalism “remodelling” which could explain the overwhelming concentration of services on Piccadilly?

 

[Bantamzen]

While this is obviously a given and Calder Valley services will be equally unable to cope, I do hope that the through stoppers Piccadilly - Leeds and Piccadilly - Castleford - York when they run will be able to abstract some through passengers to at least make some dent in the level of overcrowding.

If it works out the way it did when the stoppers previously ran through Huddersfield, then they'll fall behind their timings and the fasts will start tripping over them. I don't think running them through is a good idea at all.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

These are from the September 91 to May 92 timetable between Manchester and Huddersfield (and Wakefield/Leeds).

The usual pattern was 3 fast between Manchester Piccadilly/Leeds & vv with a Wakefield to Manchester Victoria 'stopper'.

The fast ones would've been a Liverpool-Scarborough and (eventually) 2 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough/Newcastles

Not quite, it was the following each hour;

Scarborough/Newcastle-Liverpool (alternating)
Middlesbrough-Manchester Piccadilly (later Airport)
Hull-Manchester Piccadilly

On the hours the Newcastle leg ran, the Blackpool-York semi-fast service was extended to Scarborough. Later on some of the Newcastles were extended to/from Sunderland.

When Leeds remodelling was completed, a fourth train per hour was introduced as a short express working between Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly, although Northern Spirit / Arriva always seemed to have problems resourcing sets for it, so anything Sprinter-shaped would turn up. I used it twice and it was a 155 on one occasion and a 150/2 on the other.

 

[3RDGEN]

If it works out the way it did when the stoppers previously ran through Huddersfield, then they'll fall behind their timings and the fasts will start tripping over them. I don't think running them through is a good idea at all.

If it's as detailed above the stoppers aren't running through, the Hull - Manc Picc will stop all station to Huddersfield then fast to Picc with the Manc Picc - Huddersfield stopper running as now. The Hull service should only be about 15 minutes slower so all this "two expresses Leeds- Manc" is a bit misleading, it's two fast and one semi-fast in reality.

Given the service cuts the Saltburn and Hull services should be six car 185's and the Newcastle will be an 802 which is a six car 185 in seating terms. Wait and see.

 

[CAF397]

If it works out the way it did when the stoppers previously ran through Huddersfield, then they'll fall behind their timings and the fasts will start tripping over them. I don't think running them through is a good idea at all.

It was actually the reverse. The expresses were held up around Manchester or a Leeds, and ran late. This caused the stoppers to run late, which then knocked the express behind and so on.

Crew changes in Huddersfield didn't help those matters either.

 

[nr758123]

I do hope that the through stoppers Piccadilly - Leeds and Piccadilly - Castleford - York when they run will be able to abstract some through passengers to at least make some dent in the level of overcrowding.

The stoppers are full and standing at peak times. Unless they are all run as 6 carriages, abstraction of through passengers will simply move the overcrowding around.

If it works out the way it did when the stoppers previously ran through Huddersfield, then they'll fall behind their timings and the fasts will start tripping over them. I don't think running them through is a good idea at all.

I agree that running stoppers through Huddersfield has impacted on punctuality in the past (as has running them west of Manchester, from Southport, Blackpool North and Llandudno in the 30 plus years I have been using the route).
However, there will be fewer fasts, so that may be less of a problem than might otherwise have been the case. It appears that the stoppers from Manchester to Huddersfield will then run fast, first stop Leeds or Kirkgate.

 

[Andyh82]

If it's as detailed above the stoppers aren't running through, the Hull - Manc Picc will stop all station to Huddersfield then fast to Picc with the Manc Picc - Huddersfield stopper running as now. The Hull service should only be about 15 minutes slower so all this "two expresses Leeds- Manc" is a bit misleading, it's two fast and one semi-fast in reality.

You say that, but if a customer is waiting at Leeds and see a Manchester service calling at Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe, Mirfield, Deighton… they’ll see it as a stopper

I’m not sure the folks of Hull will be happy having their service to Manchester calling all shacks either

 

[CAF397]

Not quite, it was the following each hour;

Scarborough/Newcastle-Liverpool (alternating)
Middlesbrough-Manchester Piccadilly (later Airport)
Hull-Manchester Piccadilly

On the hours the Newcastle leg ran, the Blackpool-York semi-fast service was extended to Scarborough. Later on some of the Newcastles were extended to/from Sunderland.

Ah yes, thank you for this. My memory from back then isn't as clear, plus it was RRNE/Arriva work so not much to do with me.

 

[3RDGEN]

You say that, but if a customer is waiting at Leeds and see a Manchester service calling at Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe, Mirfield, Deighton… they’ll see it as a stopper

I’m not sure the folks of Hull will be happy having their service to Manchester calling all shacks either

Sell the cheap advance tickets for the semi fast service and the passengers will not care.

A 15 minute extension is better than an hour in Hull/Manchester when the service is cancelled, back in 2018 we had the Garforth, Batley, Slaithwaite and Mossley stops in the Hull service and they still claimed it was express then.

If this is all TPE can resource then so be it, we may at last get an honest timetable they can actually run whilst catching up on traincrew training and engineering diversion routes.

 

[barbette165]

I don't think that this has previously been mentioned, the second XC service per hour between Birmingham and Nottingham that was withdrawn in May because of platform capacity at New Street is shown as being reinstated.

 

[northernchris]

2 expresses per hour Leeds to Manchester even 6 car just won’t be able to cope, they’ll all be full and standing throughout. Imagine a Saturday when there is a match on at either Leeds or Huddersfield

That will then result in the Northern Calder valley service, which is often 3 car also being full and standing

Indeed, it leaves no spare capacity to deal with events or issues on the day, and Northern and other operators will be left to deal with the fallout at inconvenience to their own passengers. TPE will hopefully try to manage capacity through a reduction in advances/seat reservations so those travelling from stations such as Morley and Batley at least have a chance of being able to board.

 

[Bantamzen]

It was actually the reverse. The expresses were held up around Manchester or a Leeds, and ran late. This caused the stoppers to run late, which then knocked the express behind and so on.

Crew changes in Huddersfield didn't help those matters either.

Trust me it wasn't always. When TPE ran to Liverpool via Warrington I used these all the times, and more often than not they would run out of Leeds on time only to trip over the stoppers west of Huddersfield.

 

[CptCharlee]

Where is GWR? Are they the last to upload? I didnt think there was to be major changes anyways.

 

[FenMan]

Where is GWR? Are they the last to upload? I didnt think there was to be major changes anyways.

There's a major recast of the North Downs. Fingers crossed it does happen.

 

[CAF397]

Trust me it wasn't always. When TPE ran to Liverpool via Warrington I used these all the times, and more often than not they would run out of Leeds on time only to trip over the stoppers west of Huddersfield.

When TPE started operating the stoppers that was in May 2018, the same timetable change that saw TPE withdraw from the Warrington Central route. So if your Liverpool via Warrington Central train was delayed by a stopper, it wasn't a TPE through stopper from Leeds.

 

[Bantamzen]

When TPE started operating the stoppers that was in May 2018, the same timetable change that saw TPE withdraw from the Warrington Central route. So if your Liverpool via Warrington Central train was delayed by a stopper, it wasn't a TPE through stopper from Leeds.

I'm talking about when Northern ran stoppers from Leeds to Wigan NW via Huddersfield. And we used to catch those up all the time leading to arriving into the throat at Piccadilly very late and having to wait for a gap in Castlefield. It happened enough for it to stick deep in my memory.

 

[JonathanH]

There's a major recast of the North Downs.

However, that has to fit around SWR and GTR which both already have their times loaded.

 

[PGAT]

Are they the last to upload?

They’re one of 4 operators not to upload yet

 

[CAF397]

TPE now uploaded for December 2023.

 

[FenMan]

However, that has to fit around SWR and GTR which both already have their times loaded.

Quite. I know "the railway" loves to say "no", however I can also see paths at all the major junctions and interchanges en route that can work. The key is, can the start-to-finish timings be kept under 3 hours?