December 2023 Timetable Change

[Peter0124]

Decided to start the thread since one doesn't exist yet, and LNER services have started to appear in RTT from 10th Dec onwards.

 

[hexagon789]

One does exist, but it was closed for lack of information at the time:

December 2023 Timetable Change

Do we have any massive timetable changes in December that we know of or just minor alterations? Thanks

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[SargeNpton]

Just LNER at the moment. Probably be end of August/beginning of September before the data for the other TOCs is published.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

 

[Benjwri]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

GWR are meant to be changing aroung the North Down

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

If I was a betting man I would be expecting massive cutbacks in TPE schedules, especially at what they think is "Off Peak".

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

GWR is going half hourly Reading to Gatwick by running both trains as semi-fast instead of one fast and one super slow.

 

[Minstral25]

GWR is going half hourly Reading to Gatwick by running both trains as semi-fast instead of one fast and one super slow.

It's a great idea - saw the draft timetable and I hope it gets approval. Only blight was big gap in late night service from Guildford to Redhill/Gatwick.

Also, Southern are retiming the Redhill to Tonbridge trains to reduce number of 3-car sets used daily from 3 to 2, this will mean a reduction in Peak services.

 

[DelW]

GWR is going half hourly Reading to Gatwick by running both trains as semi-fast instead of one fast and one super slow.

That will be interesting to see, the current timetable is certainly in need of an overhaul. Hopefully a recasting will allow some more rational timings and eliminate the pauses at Guildford on the current Redhills.

I imagine that coming up with a logical way of serving the small village stations at roughly even intervals will be tricky though. There's an inherent conflict between the line's function as a local service for them and its role as a not-London connection between Gatwick and the west / south west / south Wales.

A pedant (what, me?) might take issue with describing any train (ever) on the line as "fast", but it's all relative I suppose.

 

[dk1]

If I was a betting man I would be expecting massive cutbacks in TPE schedules, especially at what they think is "Off Peak".

Why do you say that?

 

[Peter0124]

Just LNER at the moment. Probably be end of August/beginning of September before the data for the other TOCs is published.

Any particular reason why LNER published them recently if nobody else will? Unless LNERs planning team do it earlier than the rest

 

[SargeNpton]

Any particular reason why LNER published them recently if nobody else will? Unless LNERs planning team do it earlier than the rest

LNER's target, pre-COVID, was to get their reservations and advance ticket sales in place 26 weeks ahead of the date of travel - whereas the rest of the industry aimed for 12 weeks ahead.

I guess that they are slowly working their way back to that aspiration.

 

[The Planner]

LNER's target, pre-COVID, was to get their reservations and advance ticket sales in place 26 weeks ahead of the date of travel - whereas the rest of the industry aimed for 12 weeks ahead.

I guess that they are slowly working their way back to that aspiration.

This is the base WTT plan that is being uploaded, the 12 week is STP. More than likely the LNER Dec 23 offer and responses were just dealt with without many issues and got uploaded.

 

[Peter0124]

Roughly how long will it take for the likes of Scotrail and Avanti West Coast services to appear for the TT change in Dec?

This is the base WTT plan that is being uploaded, the 12 week is STP. More than likely the LNER Dec 23 offer and responses were just dealt with without many issues and got uploaded.

 

[SargeNpton]

Roughly how long will it take for the likes of Scotrail and Avanti West Coast services to appear for the TT change in Dec?

See #3 above.

 

[The Planner]

Roughly how long till we see the likes of Scotrail and Avanti West Coast services appearing for the TT change in Dec?

No idea, they will get uploaded as and when they are done. Could be tonight, could be anytime. Avanti aren't going to do much different to what already exists after the Dec 22 re-write.

 

[SargeNpton]

This is the base WTT plan that is being uploaded, the 12 week is STP. More than likely the LNER Dec 23 offer and responses were just dealt with without many issues and got uploaded.

For retailing, 12 weeks ahead is both the LTP and STP target for reservations and for advance purchase tickets.; and has been for 20 years or more.

That LNER is being released this week is not just because they happen to be ahead of the game but was a deliberate action by the TOC.

 

[Peter0124]

No idea, they will get uploaded as and when they are done. Could be tonight, could be anytime. Avanti aren't going to do much different to what already exists after the Dec 22 re-write.

Do we know if the third Avanti tph to Birmingham will be reinstated? Or the 1tp2h 9Sxx/9Mxx Glasgow services (currently 1tp4h)

 

[The Planner]

For retailing, 12 weeks ahead is both the LTP and STP target for reservations and for advance purchase tickets.; and has been for 20 years or more.

That LNER is being released this week is not just because they happen to be ahead of the game but was a deliberate action by the TOC.

LNER don't upload the services. If NR weren't happy then they wouldn't appear. We still aren't back at 12 weeks, and most TOCs won't ever be.

 

[3RDGEN]

Why do you say that?

In a recent interview, "https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/f...express-needs-to-become-simpler/64532.article" then new MD said;

"Future service plan

Looking to the medium term, Jackson says that TPE’s plan for the December 2023 timetable recast is now in development, in partnership with Transport for the North.

‘We still have to make some bold decisions on the timetable and the fleet. We need to develop a timetable for December that is resilient, that delivers for our customers and allows us to do the training that we need but is also sympathetic to some of the challenges the business is facing’, he says."

Not sure it will be massive cuts but perhaps something like pre Dec 2022 with 3tph Leeds - Manchester.

 

[Scotrail88]

LNER don't upload the services. If NR weren't happy then they wouldn't appear. We still aren't back at 12 weeks, and most TOCs won't ever be.

Does also look like there isn’t much change (if any) so easy roll forward

 

[sjm77]

If I was a betting man I would be expecting massive cutbacks in TPE schedules, especially at what they think is "Off Peak".

I read an article in August's Modern Railways (page 12). Their interim MD Chris Jackson stated that the class 68+Mark Vs are not going anywhere in the interim as a lease continues into 2024. He is also focused on a full review of operations to take place from which to develop the December 2024 timetable change. So my reading is we continue with current timetable (with minor tweaks) until then.
From my armchair CEO perspective I actually worked our what TPEx needed to deliver the current timetable. They would need 16 class 802 diagrams to run all Liverpool - Newcastle, Liverpool - Hull and Man Picc - Newcastle but have 19 so enough for maintenance and spares. They also have enough C397 for WCML operation. They have enough class 185s to run everything else (many in 6 car formation including all South TPEx and all Man Airport - Saltburn) with 5 spare, so 46 diagrammed. In my simplistic view, use the rest day agreement to run through the training program. Ditch the Mk5s at the end of the lease. Then run the current timetable with one fleet less so lower costs. Before I get criticised I did say this was an armchair CEO perspective, but why would you keep the Mk5s given this situation? Thanks!

 

[dk1]

I read an article in August's Modern Railways (page 12). Their interim MD Chris Jackson stated that the class 68+Mark Vs are not going anywhere in the interim as a lease continues into 2024. He is also focused on a full review of operations to take place from which to develop the December 2024 timetable change. So my reading is we continue with current timetable (with minor tweaks) until then.
From my armchair CEO perspective I actually worked our what TPEx needed to deliver the current timetable. They would need 16 class 802 diagrams to run all Liverpool - Newcastle, Liverpool - Hull and Man Picc - Newcastle but have 19 so enough for maintenance and spares. They also have enough C397 for WCML operation. They have enough class 185s to run everything else (many in 6 car formation including all South TPEx and all Man Airport - Saltburn) with 5 spare, so 46 diagrammed. In my simplistic view, use the rest day agreement to run through the training program. Ditch the Mk5s at the end of the lease. Then run the current timetable with one fleet less so lower costs. Before I get criticised I did say this was an armchair CEO perspective, but why would you keep the Mk5s given this situation? Thanks!

I think you are spot on sir!

 

[scrapy]

I know Northern were proposing to run a peak only Liverpool to Stalybridge service calling all stations except Patricroft and Eccles using 4 car class 331s. The Wigan NW to Manchester Vic peak services would be retimed to call Patricroft and Eccles in both directions. I'm not sure if this is still planned for December.

 

[43055]

Hopefully the missing regional services for EMR will return. Then I may be able to go to and from work on the train again.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would also welcome the third London Birmingham Wolverhampton Service being put back in its right and proper place, it would relieve some capacity on the now usually quite busy London Birmingham Scotland services which despite their disadvantages do get used by longer distance passengers especially for those wanting Milton Keynes and Watford junction which should I would have said both be served in both directions on all services
Some lockerby calls on these trains wouldn't go a miss either, both because lockerby deserves a better service and because half the trains call there anyway when transepennine disintegrates, the timetable as it is can well with stand this and it could even if they do the decent thing and alter some of the Scotland Carlisle west coast journey times now that the work at Carstairs is complete, average savings on Edinburgh trains seem to be around 8 minutes and there must be a couple of minutes difference on the glasgows although appreciate this is nowhere near as spectacular


Now then southeastern, either perform or get off the pot on high speed services between and London, it is now time to either reintroduce the second faversham to London train or actually deliver the 12 car workings they said they would as the current one train per hour formed of 6 coaches is pretty full most of the time and over subscribed at other times so needs addressing especially at weekends and school holidays but weak days to at points


Other one to watch I guess is that although they are withdrawing them sooner I believe this will be the first timetable without any booked HST work on the network apart from the few that they manage to not break and send out in service north of the border

 

[The Planner]

I would also welcome the third London Birmingham Wolverhampton Service being put back in its right and proper place, it would relieve some capacity on the now usually quite busy London Birmingham Scotland services which despite their disadvantages do get used by longer distance passengers especially for those wanting Milton Keynes and Watford junction which should I would have said both be served in both directions on all services
Some lockerby calls on these trains wouldn't go a miss either, both because lockerby deserves a better service and because half the trains call there anyway when transepennine disintegrates, the timetable as it is can well with stand this and it could even if they do the decent thing and alter some of the Scotland Carlisle west coast journey times now that the work at Carstairs is complete, average savings on Edinburgh trains seem to be around 8 minutes and there must be a couple of minutes difference on the glasgows although appreciate this is nowhere near as spectacular


Now then southeastern, either perform or get off the pot on high speed services between and London, it is now time to either reintroduce the second faversham to London train or actually deliver the 12 car workings they said they would as the current one train per hour formed of 6 coaches is pretty full most of the time and over subscribed at other times so needs addressing especially at weekends and school holidays but weak days to at points


Other one to watch I guess is that although they are withdrawing them sooner I believe this will be the first timetable without any booked HST work on the network apart from the few that they manage to not break and send out in service north of the border

8 minutes on an Edinburgh? No chance. A Lockerbie call would cost 4 minutes on an Avanti, are you sure that fits?

 

[jonesy3001]

I know Northern were proposing to run a peak only Liverpool to Stalybridge service calling all stations except Patricroft and Eccles using 4 car class 331s. The Wigan NW to Manchester Vic peak services would be retimed to call Patricroft and Eccles in both directions. I'm not sure if this is still planned for December.

Well the wires in stalybridge should be switched on before the timetable change, could happen.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Other one to watch I guess is that although they are withdrawing them sooner I believe this will be the first timetable without any booked HST work on the network apart from the few that they manage to not break and send out in service north of the border

Plenty of booker HST work on the network in December 23:

GWR Castle sets in the West Country, these are lasting till at least Dec 24.

NMT trains over the network.

Scotrail HSTs.

 

[Bald Rick]

We still aren't back at 12 weeks

And there’s no plan to do so!