Declassified 1st class on Greater Anglia Class 170 unit (20:07 ex Cromer 2/7/14)

[cjp]

This has a first class section. I asked the guard who said it was not declassified it is not automatically declassified although the train is timetable standard only.

I asked how much the first class fare was to Norwich and she said she would sell me an upgrade 7.50 which she said was how they normally do it.

I expressed surprise and she then said she would have no problems if I sat in it.

All quite friendly but Comments?

 

[lightbulb]

The normal practise for any train conveying 1st class accommodation which is unadvertised is for that accommodation to be declassified. On the basis that anyone intending to travel on a train advertised as standard class only can not be expected to have purchased a 1st class ticket, it could be considered reasonable for an upgrade (or a Std -1st excess) to be issued on board if a 1st class fare exists for the journey being made. However, this would be unusual. Of course, where no 1st class fare for the journey being made exists, then any 1st class accommodation provided would be considered declassified without exception.

 

[cjp]

You echo the information in the ticketing section.

I am on the London train now but had hoped to point her at some doc besides the Forum

 

[lightbulb]

BRfares between Cromer and Norwich shows a 1st class 7 day season, and an AGA 1st Supplement (£7), but no other 1st class fares:

http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=CMR&dest=NRW

 

[34D]

The normal practise for any train conveying 1st class accommodation which is unadvertised is for that accommodation to be declassified. On the basis that anyone intending to travel on a train advertised as standard class only can not be expected to have purchased a 1st class ticket, it could be considered reasonable for an upgrade (or a Std -1st excess) to be issued on board if a 1st class fare exists for the journey being made. However, this would be unusual. Of course, where no 1st class fare for the journey being made exists, then any 1st class accommodation provided would be considered declassified without exception.

Toc procedure are different

 

[TheEdge]

Toc procedure are different

At GA first class is always considered first regardless of its advertised status, because, as someone has pointed out, there is (normally) a £7 supplement available for first class. Thus where there is not a specific first class fare it would be Standard Fare + £7.

 

[cjp]

At GA first class is always considered first regardless of its advertised status, because, as someone has pointed out, there is (normally) a £7 supplement available for first class. Thus where there is not a specific first class fare it would be Standard Fare + £7.

OK
Thanks for the info

 

[34D]

OK
Thanks for the info

If I recall correctly passenger focus concluded that the NXEA policy on the same was ok, and hinted that the franchise change may see k change of heart

Sister franchise northern allows it though: currently on class 322 but previously on class 158.

 

[Qwerty133]

At GA first class is always considered first regardless of its advertised status, because, as someone has pointed out, there is (normally) a £7 supplement available for first class. Thus where there is not a specific first class fare it would be Standard Fare + £7.

I agree at weekends and bank holidays, but BR fares shows that as unavailable during the week.

 

[TheEdge]

I agree at weekends and bank holidays, but BR fares shows that as unavailable during the week.

Its the fare used to provide the weekend first but, like I've already said, it is also used to "create" a 1st class fare where none exists but may be needed.

 

[cjp]

Its the fare used to provide the weekend first but, like I've already said, it is also used to "create" a 1st class fare where none exists but may be needed.

Abellio Greater Anglia have written on Twitter that charging the supplementary fare is not appropriate and if paid they will refund the charge.

 

[Muzer]

I still don't think there's enough evidence that this is the case any more to want to do it myself without first confirming with the guard (or the information screens on the train). Others have different opinions, though. I'm certainly not a lawyer.

 

[TheEdge]

Hmmmmm, intriguing, considering there are now several trains a day booked 170 to Sheringham this becomes interesting. Especially as they display first as available where 170s are booked between Norwich and Lowestoft/Yarmouth despite there still not being "proper" FC fares available. (see relevant AGA timetables)

I feel like some official digging...

 

[yorkie]

I still don't think there's enough evidence that this is the case any more to want to do it myself without first confirming with the guard (or the information screens on the train). Others have different opinions, though. I'm certainly not a lawyer.

If the train is advertised as only conveying Std accommodation, I'd sit in declassified 1st. If the Guard wants to charge an excess, politely ask if they're sure, and if they insist, don't refuse to pay. Pay it, and claim a refund.

I would, of course, assist with any refund request, and I'd be confident that it would be given without fuss. In the unlikely event that it wasn't given (given GA have confirmed a refund would be given that's very unlikely), I'll have to use some contacts, but we'd get the refund eventually!

 

[47513 Severn]

The twitter response doesn't say it's declassified though, does it. In fact I would say the original question and later reference to "non existent first class" are deliberately worded to mislead in order to draw a response that suits the OP. They are answering the original question correctly in that no trains on the line are booked to have first class. If a class 170 turns up I would say the first class section is simply out of use unless the guard declassifies it at the time, for example if the train was packed but I suspect that would be unlikely at that time of the evening.

Once again I invite anyone to provide documentary evidence of this supposed rule that unadvertised first class is automatically declassified. I remain convinced it is a myth in the absence of proper evidence.

47513

 

[bb21]

It surely is just common sense.

A train is advertised as Standard Class only, so surely it must be Standard Class only. Otherwise who is lying? The TM or the company (timetable)?

 

[greatkingrat]

No-one is "lying". The TOC are free to provide extra services above what has been advertised if they so wish.

While in practice 1st class usually will be declassified in these circumstances, I don't think there is any absolute right to sit in 1st class.

 

[jon0844]

I guess you just need to ask the TOC concerned and try and find the official policy; namely the one you'd use to defend yourself against any prosecution, penalty fare or demand for extra payment.

FCC has said many times, in writing, that where there's no '1' marked on the timetable, first class is open to standard class ticket holders. And I have no idea how many times I've been checked and been okay (only a handful of times have I ever had any grief, and it was always resolved).

I suspect that it would be the same for the Hertford East trains to Liverpool Street on AGA.

 

[grid56126]

Southern's policy is here:

http://www.southernrailway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/

See 4.4

There are regular announcements at stations and on 377s mirroring this.

I appreciate this is nothing like the Anglia example, but some TOCs do publicise it, not least because in the peaks it helps put bums on seats.

 

[34D]

No-one is "lying". The TOC are free to provide extra services above what has been advertised if they so wish.

While in practice 1st class usually will be declassified in these circumstances, I don't think there is any absolute right to sit in 1st class.

Can someone post the link to the thread of ages ago where passenger focus confirmed that the Toc was entitled to excess passengers

I agree it is on a Toc by Toc basis

 

[TheEdge]

Right, I've enquired with the relevant parties above me on this.

While NXEA/GA policy used to be the charging of the supplement if a 170 presented where not expected it is no longer. Where First is not shown in the timetable first is available to all.

 

[bb21]

No-one is "lying". The TOC are free to provide extra services above what has been advertised if they so wish.

While in practice 1st class usually will be declassified in these circumstances, I don't think there is any absolute right to sit in 1st class.

Not in my opinion.

There are only two classes of accommodation in the UK, Standard and First. If First Class availability is not shown for a service in the timetable, it is not unreasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that the whole train is Standard Class accommodation, therefore should not be charged a supplement for travelling in them using the appropriate ticket.

If First may be provided on a service then the TOC should make it clear in its publicity.

 

[Be3G]

FCC has said many times, in writing, that where there's no '1' marked on the timetable, first class is open to standard class ticket holders. And I have no idea how many times I've been checked and been okay (only a handful of times have I ever had any grief, and it was always resolved).

I suspect that it would be the same for the Hertford East trains to Liverpool Street on AGA.

Notably, GA's site used to explicitly say that all services to Enfield Town, Cheshunt via Southbury, and Hertford East counted as standard-class only… but it's since been deleted, oddly. I wonder if the stations on the Hertford line still have posters saying all trains serving those stations are standard-class only?

 

[47513 Severn]

What if first class is advertised by way of a yellow stripe on the side of the carriage and lots of signs within the compartment saying First Class? Is it still reasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that it is standard class?

By the same logic, if a trolley service turns up on a train where it is not advertised can we all take the food for free? After all the train company didn't advertise the service so we didn't know to bring money to buy things. You have to have a major sense of entitlement (or be Barry Doe) to think that way.

First class advertised in the timetable means the train will have first class accommodation for those who wish to pay for it. For operational reasons trains with first class may be used on other services as well. It would appear that Greater Anglia have attempted to provide a means of allowing passengers to pay a little extra to avail themselves of it where FC fares don't exist. Where is the problem with this?

It really is time to let go of this urban myth people. The logic used to defend it is getting ludicrous, talk about marshalling the argument....

47513

 

[bb21]

What if first class is advertised by way of a yellow stripe on the side of the carriage and lots of signs within the compartment saying First Class? Is it still reasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that it is standard class?

Conflicting information you mean?

By the same logic, if a trolley service turns up on a train where it is not advertised can we all take the food for free? After all the train company didn't advertise the service so we didn't know to bring money to buy things. You have to have a major sense of entitlement (or be Barry Doe) to think that way.

What? What sort of analogy is that? :roll:

 

[GatwickDepress]

What if first class is advertised by way of a yellow stripe on the side of the carriage and lots of signs within the compartment saying First Class? Is it still reasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that it is standard class?

If the timetable states that the service conveys only standard class accommodation, then yes, it is reasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that any first class accommodation within the train may be considered standard class.

 

[greatkingrat]

If the timetable states that the service conveys only standard class accommodation, then yes, it is reasonable for a passenger to draw the conclusion that any first class accommodation within the train may be considered standard class.

I'm not aware of any timetables that specifically state that a train is standard class only. The normal procedure is that some trains have a symbol advertising first class is available, while other trains do not have the symbol.

There is a difference between stating that First Class does not exist, and not stating anything about First Class one way or the other.

 

[jon0844]

I can see how opinions vary based on what a local TOC says, or for historical reasons, but on Wagn and then FCC, it's always been dead clear.

FCC toyed with temporary stickers for a while to say first class was open to standard class ticket holders, but for operational reasons this didn't last! But they are now permanent on the 377s on the TL side (one compartment being permanently declassified on each set).

I would hope GoVia doesn't change this on the former FCC routes, although with new route diagrams it's perfectly feasible that all trains might end up offering first class and it is no longer an issue.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'm not aware of any timetables that specifically state that a train is standard class only. The normal procedure is that some trains have a symbol advertising first class is available, while other trains do not have the symbol.

There is a difference between stating that First Class does not exist, and not stating anything about First Class one way or the other.

From the "references and symbols" page of the GB Rail Timetable Summer Edition 2013:

"Accommodation:
All services shown in this Timetable convey Standard Accommodation only unless otherwise shown."

 

[VauxhallandI]

There is no 1st Class on the ABA Southbury Loop line (bar a few services) and RPI's adhere to this.

https://twitter.com/greateranglia/status/484954223088779264