Declining quality of 'Inter City' standard class passenger accommodation

[QSK19]

It says it all about declining quality when EMR Regional 158's have better seats than modern "Intercity" trains. I'd rather spend several hours on one of those than for example TPE's 397 which have rock hard seats and bone shaking ride quality!

Well, when you consider the phrase Cheap As F…

 

[FrontSideBus]

It will be a sad day when the IC225's are supplanted by the 897's.... God they will be terrible!

 

[QSK19]

It will be a sad day when the IC225's are supplanted by the 897's.... God they will be terrible!

I’ve only ever had one ride on the IC225 and I really liked it.

Like you, I don’t have much confidence in the 897s, but I’ll keep an open mind as much as I can!

 

[800001]

It will be a sad day when the IC225's are supplanted by the 897's.... God they will be terrible!

Yet no one has seen what the 897 will actually be like?

 

[FrontSideBus]

Pretty much like every other Civity based unit? They all seem to ride rough as hell with bogies that you can hear and feel knocking away under you!
They all also seem to have this annoying fan which kicks on and off all the time which is annoying.

I suppose at least some rakes of Mk4's will live on with TFW being hauled by diesels. The refurbed (ex Grand Union?) black painted ones are really nice!

 

[physics34]

Bottom line is that sprung seats were basically secondary suspension when rolling stock has poor ride quality. After years of sprung seats on mk2s, 3s and 4s which had good ride quality we are back to rolling stock with poor ride quality.. but now with NO sprung seats.

Something needs to be done.

 

[satisnek]

But then how long do you spend sat in a pub?

(I would have answered that question with longer than I spend on a train, but...)

Yup I should add that most train journeys (specifically individual 'legs' of a journey) I undertake are less than three quarters of an hour.

I'm surprised you say the 172 diesel units are the "most basic" seats, for I believe these are the same trains that ran initially on the Goblin line in London, where they were (quite correctly) regarded as the most comfortable of anything running within London, they were really pleasant. Their overlong-awaited and hugely hyped electric successors came as something of a shock for how the seating standard was far worse.

That's why I said the Midlands (actually the most basic basic is Class 139, but that is extremely niche!). I have limited experience of the latest generation trains operating elsewhere in the country although I do know that some seats are very hard, but 172 seats are fairly hard, quite low-backed and narrow (designed as 3+2 but laid out as 2+2 with a gap between each pair).

But I don't necessarily equate 'hard' with 'uncomfortable'. Personally I don't find the seats in GWR Class 80x (which serve Worcester) any worse than those in the HSTs they replaced. If anything, I think they're slightly better shaped but can appreciate that no two human bodies are the same!

 

[renegademaster]

The 700 seats are hard but they are quite a bit more bareable. Think it's more to do with the seat angle than anything

 

[Mikey C]

The 700 seats are hard but they are quite a bit more bareable. Think it's more to do with the seat angle than anything

The 700 seats are unpleasant for anything other than a short journey, but are at least very hard wearing. They look much the same as when they entered service, which cannot be said for the 80* seats where the seat cushions are worn through ridiculously quickly.

 

[AM9]

The 700 seats are unpleasant for anything other than a short journey, but are at least very hard wearing. They look much the same as when they entered service, which cannot be said for the 80* seats where the seat cushions are worn through ridiculously quickly.

I find the class 700 seats firm, (which many don't like) but well profiled for a healthy posture. On the occasions where I've travelled from St Albans to Gatwick (1hr 5mins - 1hr 21mins), or St Albans to Brighton (1hr 47mins), they are resonably comfortable for journeys of that length. On reason for that I believe, is that the Desiro Citys are among the best riders of average track, (even past the Mill Hill bumps at 100mph, which gave passengers in Electrostars quite a rough ride)!
I might add that the standard and first class seat are both similarly comfortable.

 

[QSK19]

The 700 seats are unpleasant for anything other than a short journey, but are at least very hard wearing. They look much the same as when they entered service, which cannot be said for the 80* seats where the seat cushions are worn through ridiculously quickly.

I agree. I’ve done the journey from St Pancras to Brighton and back and the seats were extremely uncomfortable.

But, as many have said, seat comfort is subjective.

 

[physics34]

Everything from legroom, width, to hardness and shape the 700 seats are awful

 

[Crithylum]

Quite curious how you have managed to describe the exact same seat as both "a pleasant surprise" and "I opted to stand, the seats were that bad"?

The seat on the first train was certainly better padded than on the second train. I did not notice the metal bar on the first train (maybe the crap armrests distracted me), but it was the first thing I noticed on the second train. Then I noticed it in every seat. Maybe it is due to the age of the trains or some difference between the 800 and 802.

 

[BRX]

The seat on the first train was certainly better padded than on the second train. I did not notice the metal bar on the first train (maybe the crap armrests distracted me), but it was the first thing I noticed on the second train. Then I noticed it in every seat. Maybe it is due to the age of the trains or some difference between the 800 and 802.

Yes, the IET seats weren't always so bad - it's more recently that the metal bar thing has become a big issue, so I imagine it is quite directly related to how much service any given train has seen.

 

[driverd]

Like you, I don’t have much confidence in the 897s, but I’ll keep an open mind as much as I can!

Not that I'm saying I have anything against the mk4's - they're superb coaching stock and by far the most comfortable long distance trains in service presently, however, I'm actually a big fan of the 397s, very much looking forward to the LNER version.

I'd go as far as to say I find them the best new build (ie: compared against the (s)Hitachi units and potentially 197s) intercity stock. The seats are what they are, but CAF have pulled off some really nice little design features with them. For example, you get a lower window height in the saloon to provide better views. The interior spec is nice and they don't ride too badly for me. Yes, it's got CAF sports suspension, but it's not as though the IETs are butter smooth either.

Quite agree the overall quality is in decline, as rolling stock ever pushes towards lighter vehicles, cheaper maintenance and lower running costs at the expense of comfort.

 

[AM9]

Everything from legroom, width, to hardness and shape the 700 seats are awful

For some. Others accept them as fit for purpose.
It's so easy to just complain, so for those here who are complaining that the seats are not suitable for 'their' comfort, what savings would they suggest to pay for what they regard as suitable?

 

[43096]

The interior spec is nice and they don't ride too badly for me. Yes, it's got CAF sports suspension, but it's not as though the IETs are butter smooth either.

It’s amazing how we lower our expectations as standards decline!

It’s frankly embarrassing for the railway that the finest riding vehicles we have ever had were developed over 50 years ago (Mark 3s) and around 40 years ago (Class 158/159). Bet my car has a better ride quality than the equivalent from the 70s or 80s!

 

[driverd]

For some. Others accept them as fit for purpose.
It's so easy to just complain, so for those here who are complaining that the seats are not suitable for 'their' comfort, what savings would they suggest to pay for what they regard as suitable?

Whilst it's debatable how "intercity" a 700 is, I don't think anyone is suggesting any outrageous modifications to improve them.

Personally I find them the worst example of new build stock on the network, managing to bring together all of the most disappointing aspects of modern stock into one unit.

Seats wise, they use the basic version of a fairly unspectacular seat (in the sense it lacks much in the way of contouring/headrests etc and doesnt offer much padding), by omitting arm rests and seat back tables.

The trains weren't fitted with any full size tables from the outset.

Lighting is one of the worst examples of ultra-bright, white tinted LED, which lends the interior ambiance one of being sat in a dentists chair (just without the cushion or recline).

Luggage racks are poorly provisioned, in so far as the lack of lower shelf and curvature of the screens (combined with a lack of carpet) means larger cases have a tendency to roll out and across the train. If laid on their side, they stick out into the aisle.

The toilets are standard, but as with most Siemens units, manage to be just a bit more smelly and just a little bit more disgusting - perhaps the medical grade lighting helps the eye to catch all those things you don't want to see.

The ultra-wide gangways and sterile white plastic, lino-floored interior, give an internal ambinace that is much less comfortable travel and far more hospital waiting room - as though your sat awkwardly (in an uncomfortable seat), looking down a long corridor, waiting to see something unpleasant in the distance or receive some unwanted news.

Personally, the best part of the class 700 experience is the sigh of relief you take as you step off.

Now, how to fix a 700 at minimum cost:
1. Install yellow/warm tint on the LEDs.
2. Spec seats initially with arm rests and seat back tables at order stage (one of these has already had to be retrofitted after the outcry from long distance commuters who'd got used to the comparable luxury of a 377 - this mod probably costing more than just ordering a more deluxe version of the seat in the first instance).
3. Spec a warmer colour pallette for internal decor and (maybe) carpets for a midlife refurb. Something as simple as deep grey side panelling, rather than white, would make all the difference.

Obviously it's all down to personal taste, I'm sure there's a small cohort who see a 700 as a beacon of modernities finest offerings, but for me, they're utterly rancid places to be. I appreciate they're unpleasant but suitable for short hops across the capital, but to my mind, thoroughly inappropriate for journeys such as London to Gatwick, Brighton or Cambridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

700s are practical (the way they swallow huge crowds quickly is impressive), but I think we can look at the 345 to see what they could have been in terms of ambiance. Indirect lighting and softer tones make all the difference.

On the other hand while they do connect several cities they aren't InterCity in that sense, they are a commuter unit. And they do handle crowds much better than a 350 due to the wide aisle and stand backs. Having said that, the 730/0 is basically exactly the same thing in principle yet somehow manages to be a lot nicer.

 

[Ethano92]

It has already been said but a hard seat doesn’t necessarily mean discomfort, and comfort is subjective anyway. I do find the seats on refurbished Avanti trains comfortable, though firm, with good legroom. The headrest fins are a nice addition too. I’d suggest many passengers care more for increased legroom and plug sockets at every seat than the hue of lights on the train, even though it’s fair to say pendolinos provide a nicer ambience than the 800s. I wouldn’t be against lights being dimmed or half lights on late evening services as you get on buses sometimes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has already been said but a hard seat doesn’t necessarily mean discomfort, and comfort is subjective anyway. I do find the seats on refurbished Avanti trains comfortable, though firm, with good legroom. The headrest fins are a nice addition too. I’d suggest many passengers care more for increased legroom and plug sockets at every seat than the hue of lights on the train, even though it’s fair to say pendolinos provide a nicer ambience than the 800s. I wouldn’t be against lights being dimmed or half lights on late evening services as you get on buses sometimes.

Generally the best approach for lighting is for it to be indirect and well-diffused. Thameslink 700s do the total opposite - the glare of about 10 rows of LEDs right in your face. I don't mind the lighting in 80x to be honest - it's quite bright and a white-ish colour but indirect, it shines up at the ceiling which diffuses it very effectively.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Talking about lighting colour temperature, I've noticed on XC Voyagers and TFW/LNER Mk4's that they must be struggling to get hold of fluorescent tubes as they are starting to use a mixture of white and warm white lamps which does look quite odd! I'm not sure what lamps the Voyagers use but the Mk4's were 35w T5 HE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking about lighting colour temperature, I've noticed on XC Voyagers and TFW/LNER Mk4's that they must be struggling to get hold of fluorescent tubes as they are starting to use a mixture of white and warm white lamps which does look quite odd! I'm not sure what lamps the Voyagers use but the Mk4's were 35w T5 HE.

That to me looks as sloppy and unprofessional as putting on random seat covers (as some bus companies seem to like to do).

 

[FrontSideBus]

Indeed!

 

[AM9]

Whilst it's debatable how "intercity" a 700 is, I don't think anyone is suggesting any outrageous modifications to improve them.

Personally I find them the worst example of new build stock on the network, managing to bring together all of the most disappointing aspects of modern stock into one unit.

Seats wise, they use the basic version of a fairly unspectacular seat (in the sense it lacks much in the way of contouring/headrests etc and doesnt offer much padding), by omitting arm rests and seat back tables.

The trains weren't fitted with any full size tables from the outset.

Lighting is one of the worst examples of ultra-bright, white tinted LED, which lends the interior ambiance one of being sat in a dentists chair (just without the cushion or recline).

Luggage racks are poorly provisioned, in so far as the lack of lower shelf and curvature of the screens (combined with a lack of carpet) means larger cases have a tendency to roll out and across the train. If laid on their side, they stick out into the aisle.

The toilets are standard, but as with most Siemens units, manage to be just a bit more smelly and just a little bit more disgusting - perhaps the medical grade lighting helps the eye to catch all those things you don't want to see.

The ultra-wide gangways and sterile white plastic, lino-floored interior, give an internal ambinace that is much less comfortable travel and far more hospital waiting room - as though your sat awkwardly (in an uncomfortable seat), looking down a long corridor, waiting to see something unpleasant in the distance or receive some unwanted news.

Personally, the best part of the class 700 experience is the sigh of relief you take as you step off.

Now, how to fix a 700 at minimum cost:
1. Install yellow/warm tint on the LEDs.
2. Spec seats initially with arm rests and seat back tables at order stage (one of these has already had to be retrofitted after the outcry from long distance commuters who'd got used to the comparable luxury of a 377 - this mod probably costing more than just ordering a more deluxe version of the seat in the first instance).
3. Spec a warmer colour pallette for internal decor and (maybe) carpets for a midlife refurb. Something as simple as deep grey side panelling, rather than white, would make all the difference.

Obviously it's all down to personal taste, I'm sure there's a small cohort who see a 700 as a beacon of modernities finest offerings, but for me, they're utterly rancid places to be. I appreciate they're unpleasant but suitable for short hops across the capital, but to my mind, thoroughly inappropriate for journeys such as London to Gatwick, Brighton or Cambridge.

Despite all the criticism, nobody has even suggested what savings, (i.e. sacrifices) could be made to have what they personally think their trains should be equipped with in lighting, seating etc.. Anybody can just criticise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite all the criticism, nobody has even suggested what savings, (i.e. sacrifices) could be made to have what they personally think their trains should be equipped with in lighting, seating etc.. Anybody can just criticise.

While obviously retrofitting these things will cost, if done in the first place they don't necessarily. For instance a different colour temperature of LED doesn't cost more, nor does a nicer colour of moquette.

 

[AM9]

While obviously retrofitting these things will cost, if done in the first place they don't necessarily. For instance a different colour temperature of LED doesn't cost more, nor does a nicer colour of moquette.

The suggestions are being made now so that's the starting position - there's no winding the clock back, unless they are prepared to wait (and moan) all the way to the mid-life update. Changing seats (or even just the colour of the material) cost a lot in service disruption, material and fitting costs, and probably not giving any measurable increase in fares revenue. So the question stands, what are the complainers prepared to sacrifice for an environment of their preference? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Note: those wanting more legroom/seat-window alignment/luggage space/cycle space are effectively calling for lower density layouts, therefore reducing the capacity of the trains.

 

[BRX]

The purpose of moaning is to increase the chance that things are given some consideration when refurbs come around, or other new stock is ordered.

Talking about lighting colour temperature, I've noticed on XC Voyagers and TFW/LNER Mk4's that they must be struggling to get hold of fluorescent tubes as they are starting to use a mixture of white and warm white lamps which does look quite odd! I'm not sure what lamps the Voyagers use but the Mk4's were 35w T5 HE.

This mixture of colour temperatures is visible on Southeastern Networkers too.

 

[tfw756rider]

Talking about lighting colour temperature, I've noticed on XC Voyagers and TFW/LNER Mk4's that they must be struggling to get hold of fluorescent tubes as they are starting to use a mixture of white and warm white lamps which does look quite odd! I'm not sure what lamps the Voyagers use but the Mk4's were 35w T5 HE.

Wasn't the sale of new fluorescent tubes in the UK banned in late 2023?

I don't really know about on-train lighting (although when I read up about High Efficiency tubes, mains-like voltages are mentioned, so it must be upconverted from the alternator/battery voltage?)

In land-based mains applications though, retrofit LED tubes are available for "fluorescent tube" fittings (in different colour temperatures and different versions for different ballast types magnetic/electronic etc). I watched a video where each (magnetic ballast) fitting had to have its starter replaced with an "LED starter"/shorting thing.

On a train, I don't know how possible it would be to mix fluorescent and LED tubes, as I don't know how independently from each other the tubes are driven in terms of control gear (I'd like to know if anyone knows).

 

[bramling]

For some. Others accept them as fit for purpose.
It's so easy to just complain, so for those here who are complaining that the seats are not suitable for 'their' comfort, what savings would they suggest to pay for what they regard as suitable?

On GTR, could get rid of the Travel Safe Officers for starters. Total waste of space.

Despite all the criticism, nobody has even suggested what savings, (i.e. sacrifices) could be made to have what they personally think their trains should be equipped with in lighting, seating etc.. Anybody can just criticise.

For the lighting on the 700s, there’s already a dimmer lighting mode that can be selected, and indeed sometimes is. So that can be changed for pretty minimal outlay.