Declining quality of 'Inter City' standard class passenger accommodation

[Harpo]

Despite the 745/0 being considered an IC unit, I’ve always felt the FLIRT is a high end regional express product, not an IC one.

Totally agree.

When you can be sat just feet away from an open door in winter, that is suburban/regional and not of sufficient quality to be called ‘Inter-City’.

 

[RailWonderer]

When you can be sat just feet away from an open door in winter, that is suburban/regional and not of sufficient quality to be called ‘Inter-City’.

That's what the coach doors are for between the seats and the vestibules. They aren't always closed, the guard can key them to keep them open but mostly they are closed.

 

[QSK19]

The FLIRT is a regional design but has been adapted to an IC product which does everything an IC service needs with regards to comfort, first class, buffet etc. I'm sure anyone here would rather spend 5 hours to Cornwall on a 745 (if it had engines) than an IET.

I must clarify that I do think they’re a super train - would be really pleased to have them grace EMR’s network, IC or not (especially when the 810 introduction keeps going from bad to worse). But when you put them against a SMILE, for me it’s a no brainier which one you’d go for when it comes to procuring Stadler trains for IC services (cost aside of course).

 

[AM9]

The FLIRT is a regional design but has been adapted to an IC product which does everything an IC service needs with regards to comfort, first class, buffet etc. I'm sure anyone here would rather spend 5 hours to Cornwall on a 745 (if it had engines) than an IET.

That would be a 5-car 755.

I dislike the Mk3 ride. It has an irritating characteristic sway due to inadequate lateral damping.

I'd agree with that, but ironically the least 'IC' MK3 stock was that in the class 442 where it was quite good* which I believe that was down to the shorter and maybe stiffer swing linkage in the bogies to ease clearance on SR routes.

I mean that in absolute terms not as a lover of the 442's predecessors the jumble of bogies on the 432/438 era SWML expresses.

 

[Mikey C]

Despite the 745/0 being considered an IC unit, I’ve always felt the FLIRT is a high end regional express product, not an IC one.

London to Norwich is hardly a long distance anyway, it's much the same time as say London to Margate on the historic lines, and way quicker than Waterloo to Exeter.

 

[bramling]

Ironically, in my view at least, the local version of the AT300 (the Javelin units) is nicer than the long distance version!

I’ve always thought that too, though the interior colour scheme on the Southeastern units has always been a bit depressing - nothing that some different colour seat covers and warmer lighting tones couldn’t fix though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve always thought that too, though the interior colour scheme on the Southeastern units has always been a bit depressing - nothing that some different colour seat covers and warmer lighting tones couldn’t fix though.

I find they just feel like posh 350s to be honest.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I'd rather spend 5 hours on an EMR Regional 158 than an IET!

 

[AM9]

London to Norwich is hardly a long distance anyway, it's much the same time as say London to Margate on the historic lines, and way quicker than Waterloo to Exeter.

The distance is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread, as is the speed, - it's the time that the average passenger spends on the train that should determine the interior layout etc..

 

[QSK19]

The distance is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread, as is the speed, - it's the time that the average passenger spends on the train that should determine the interior layout etc..

And I’d also argue price paid for the ticket is a factor: if you’re paying IC fares, you deserve an IC-level of comfort, even if the whole route is only 25 minutes end-to-end.

As many know, the disparity between the fare and standard of accommodation is a common bug bear of the EMR Connect operation. Many have argued that London to Corby isn’t worthy of an IC product due to the short length of time; but if you’re paying full whack fares, anything less than an IC-level interior is unacceptable. Hopefully the upcoming 360 refurbishment addresses this.

 

[Harpo]

London to Norwich is hardly a long distance anyway

Sub-2 hours so comparable to London to Bristol, Cheltenham, Cardiff, Birmingham, Nottingham and possibly York.

Maybe the next step is just over 2 hours so London to Exeter, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds etc.?

I’m sure DfT’s bean counters would happily reduce them and more to suburban/regional stock too in this sad race to the bottom.

 

[QSK19]

I’m sure DfT’s bean counters would happily reduce them and more to suburban/regional stock too in this sad race to the bottom.

Stagecoach’s bid would have been music to the DfT’s ears if it weren’t for the fact they they had to be disqualified from the EMR franchise competition - I seem to remember reading on RF that Stagecoach’s bid was for First Class to be 2+2! Dread to think how bargain basement their train spec would have been!

 

[Mikey C]

The distance is irrelevant to the discussion on this thread, as is the speed, - it's the time that the average passenger spends on the train that should determine the interior layout etc..

I said time. The 745s aren't commuter trains, they're perfectly fine for a journey like London to Norwich, which in a different universe could have been a NSE route like Waterloo to Weymouth or Exeter.

 

[Ant1966]

I said time. The 745s aren't commuter trains, they're perfectly fine for a journey like London to Norwich, which in a different universe could have been a NSE route like Waterloo to Weymouth or Exeter.

The 745s and 755s are lovely trains. 755s are the best regional train out there. 745s are perfectly fine for London to Norwich, and (imo) would be fine for longer distance as well. Obviously comfort is subjective and everyone's spine and posture is different (e.g. I have scoliosis) but the IET seats are an abomination (again, imo).
Was on a TPE 802 recently and that also seemed to have metal bar syndrome (anyone else noticed that?) GWR standard class seats are almost unusable for me now, to the point where I have previously sat in 1st class for a short while for some relief from the discomfort, and was almost willing a ticket check so that I could explain why I was sitting in 1st and perhaps challenge GWR in court over their provision of seating that actively harms customers
(Spoiler, no ticket check, and I'd probably have backed down, but I was so frustrated thats what it made me feel like. I'm also well aware that any case would be flimsy at best, but sometimes as the 'little man' you just feel you need to do something.)

 

[AM9]

I said time. The 745s aren't commuter trains, they're perfectly fine for a journey like London to Norwich, which in a different universe could have been a NSE route like Waterloo to Weymouth or Exeter.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to read as disagreeing your post. I've always felt that a train that once was an 'IC' service is not the same as we have now where the service covers similar towns and cities. The biggest difference is the time the train takes to make the journey. So a Norwich to London service takes around 100 minutes for a 115 mile journey. That's about the same time it takes to get a fast train from Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo, - just 74 miles. Also similar for London to Cardiff, just under 2 hours for 144 miles*.
In each of those journeys, the passenger sits in a seat travelling along at whatever speed the route allows, - the fact that some journeys cover more distance in the same time is irrelevant to a person sitting down. Equally irrelevant is the fact that before WW2, the journey might have taken nearly twice as long justifying different seats, - the deal was to get passengers there.

* The 125mph routes require faster trains, which may need different suspension etc.., but that doesn't affect the seat design, lighting colour or decor, (some here argue that the seats on the 80Xs aren't any better than those on trains deployes for much shorter journeys)!

 

[duffield]

I've retold the story before, but when I was on a business trip on company money, I ended up going out of my way to book a route via Salisbury specifically to avoid destroying my spinal cord on the IET torture racks. The company certainly didn't mind either, as it was far cheaper to book via Salisbury than the GWML. I still find that absurd at face value; it is cheaper to use a diesel service than it is to be using the train that runs under the wires.

On my own money, unless I can find a really cheap itinerary, I will almost always drive.

It's not that absurd, you're at least partly paying for the extra speed - it's more than an hour quicker on the GWML from Exeter to London. I guess the current balance of fares between the routes was set to recognise that the faster service is more attractive to many people (particularly business travellers) so a higher fare can be charged.

Sub-2 hours so comparable to London to Bristol, Cheltenham, Cardiff, Birmingham, Nottingham and possibly York.

Maybe the next step is just over 2 hours so London to Exeter, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds etc.?

I’m sure DfT’s bean counters would happily reduce them and more to suburban/regional stock too in this sad race to the bottom.

They didn't take that opportunity when the class 810s were ordered for the MML; but maybe that was because one of the four major destinations (Sheffield) just goes over the two hour mark (for most services).

 

[QSK19]

They didn't take that opportunity when the class 810s were ordered for the MML; but maybe that was because one of the four major destinations (Sheffield) just goes over the two hour mark (for most services).

Could have also been as a forced sweetener to the MML when Graying cancelled electrification, especially when so many constituencies along the route are marginals.

It would have a double blow to cancel electrification and then downgrade IC services; so the price to pay for Grayling was to specify brand new IC stock.

 

[dk1]

That's what the coach doors are for between the seats and the vestibules. They aren't always closed, the guard can key them to keep them open but mostly they are closed.

The driver controls the saloon doors on the 745/0 & power pack doors on the 755s.

 

[RailWonderer]

The driver controls the saloon doors on the 745/0 & power pack doors on the 755s.

Thanks for clearing this up. I always thought the guard did those.

 

[dk1]

Thanks for clearing this up. I always thought the guard did those.

on the old Mk3s they did but we control them on the TMS screens now.

 

[route101]

Totally agree.

When you can be sat just feet away from an open door in winter, that is suburban/regional and not of sufficient quality to be called ‘Inter-City’.

Any unit with mid carriage doors makes it non intercity for me like the Class 170s.

 

[FrontSideBus]

At least on Avanti's IET's they have used the same or very similar seats as on refurb Pendo's.

 

[slowroad]

Any unit with mid carriage doors makes it non intercity for me like the Class 170s.

All Mark 1s and early Mark 2s, then

 

[dk1]

At least on Avanti's IET's they have used the same or very similar seats as on refurb Pendo's.

I think they are identical.

 

[tfw756rider]

All Mark 1s and early Mark 2s, then

Those aren't units, and I think @route101 was talking about "open" vehicles, not ones with compartments.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I think they are identical.

I did note that the airline ones have reading lights in the seat backs as there are none in the overhead. Next time I am on, I'll have to see if the table seats have any, I can't remember if they did or not.
One of the things that I like about the Pendos is that every seat has one. IMO being on a Pendo is almost like being in an aeroplane cabin and not a carriage, which I like tbh.

 

[dk1]

I did note that the airline ones have reading lights in the seat backs as there are none in the overhead. Next time I am on, I'll have to see if the table seats have any.

Was on the 10:47 New St-Euston yesterday but didn’t pay much attention.

 

[AJDesiro]

I did note that the airline ones have reading lights in the seat backs as there are none in the overhead. Next time I am on, I'll have to see if the table seats have any, I can't remember if they did or not.
One of the things that I like about the Pendos is that every seat has one. IMO being on a Pendo is almost like being in an aeroplane cabin and not a carriage, which I like tbh.

There are no reading lights on Avanti’s IETs at table seats in standard, and there are none in first class. The standard class seats are identical, with the only difference being the reading lights on the seat backs and different sockets (other than the single seats in coach A which use the 390-style sockets).

 

[QSK19]

Any unit with mid carriage doors makes it non intercity for me like the Class 170s.

Which is how I see it to a great extent: the differences between the 444s and 450s reflect that.

You can obviously make a mid-carriage door train super comfortable (hopefully EMR’s non-IC stock will be exactly that once the refurbishment project is over), but it just isn’t proper IC for me.

 

[Harpo]

Any unit with mid carriage doors makes it non intercity for me like the Class 170s.

An interesting ally on that point is Peter Hendy and those he consulted for his Union Connectivity report, which concluded that Cardiff to Birmingham (XC 170s) needed better quality rolling stock.