Definition Merseytravel City Line

[U-Bahnfreund]

Hello there.
I wondered what the official definition of what constitutes the City Line out of Liverpool Lime Street station is. Is it generally all lines and services out of the station, that serve other stations within the Merseytravel area or are there specific City Line services distinct from other trains? The information on the Merseytravel website is somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, according to https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/get...in-timetables/Pages/Merseyrail-City-Line.aspx "Merseyrail City Line trains are operated by Northern" (so, all Northern services originating from Lime Street?), but on the other hand, the official network map and the timetables list the line via Runcorn to Crewe as being part of the City Line, while there are no Northern services there, trains are operated by London Northwestern Railway or Virgin Trains instead. The Wikipedia article is also a bit vague.

Does anyone on the forum know more?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't really have a proper definition beyond "Northern services operating out of Lime St while they are within the PTE boundary". It has in the past included and not included LNR services towards Crewe but presently appears not to; they seem to change their mind on this about every month or two.

It's more an artificial construct to determine what goes in the third timetable book. Though I think there is also a degree of subsidy for certain routes.

For a German comparison, it's a bit like the RegionalBahn and RegionalExpress services out of Hamburg Hbf which are "HVV until <boundary>".

 

[jamesst]

It was basically the lines out of Liverpool Lime Street up to the Merseyside boundary. As far as I'm aware the thinking behind it was to group those lines with the Northern and Wirral lines to create the image of a unified railway system across Merseyside.

 

[route101]

This used to confuse me before i knew much about the Merseyrail network , i thought it was part of that !

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I assume that there was some degree of Merseytravel subsidy involved at some point, because suburban stations all carried the Merseytravel logo and colour scheme. There was also a handful of 150/2s in Merseyrail livery for a while, along with the now notorious Merseytravel refurbished 142s. In practice, the 142s could find themselves operating as far away as Wakefield and Sheffield once the "shadow franchise" of RRNW was set up before privatisation. Never saw a Merseyside 150 over here though.

 

[Calderfornian]

The City Line covered stations to the border (Garswood, Newton, Hunts Cross, Halewood) with various levels of subsidy / services at different times. As I kid I remember services turning back at Garswood, the last City Line station on the Wigan line. Up until the early nineties the three Merseyrail lines each had coloured station signs denoting which were which - red City, green Wirral, Blue northern.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This used to confuse me before i knew much about the Merseyrail network , i thought it was part of that !

Indeed the fact that Mersytravel, the public sector co-ordinating body, and Merseyrail, the private sector TOC, use almost the same colours for their corporate images has always been a recipe for some confusion.

 

[driver_m]

You've got to bear in mind that it was created back when BR ran a local Lime St - Crewe AC unit service that stopped at Mossley Hill etc. Whether Ditton was a saveaway station back then I've no idea (Hough green and Hooton were both in Cheshire and could use saveaways). If not Allerton in its pre South Parkway days was the boundary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The City Line covered stations to the border (Garswood, Newton, Hunts Cross, Halewood) with various levels of subsidy / services at different times. As I kid I remember services turning back at Garswood, the last City Line station on the Wigan line.

Sure that wasn’t engineering works? To my knowledge they have never done that as a matter of course.

 

[Springs Branch]

Sure that wasn’t engineering works? To my knowledge they have never done that as a matter of course.

@Calderfornian was correct. Back in the day the City Line services included one DMU per hour Lime St to Wigan NW and another half an hour behind terminating at St Helens (Shaw St, as it was then).

At one stage (early 1980s maybe??) the St Helens terminators were extended to Garswood. This didn't last very long - a year or two, until the next round of funding cuts I'd guess - but it was a regular thing, not an arrangement for engineering work etc.

 

[The_Engineer]

Try this map!

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I'd have to say that anywhere within the Merseytravel zones on routes out of Lime Street could be classed City Line, at least to a certain extent. If you were to purchase an All Zone top-up on a Walrus Card (before then you would have to buy a Saveaway ticket), you could travel from Liverpool Lime Street to Liverpool South Parkway and Hunt's Cross, and you would be well within your valid zone of travel. You would even be able to get all the way to Huyton station far out of the city centre area.

Having said that, I don't think there ever was a clearly defined boundary of the City Line. The Northern Line is relatively simple really in that it runs from Hunt's Cross to Southport with a branch to Kirkby and Ormskirk, and the Wirral Line being four lines from Ellesmere Port and Chester, and West Kirby and New Brighton converging at Hamilton Square and doing a loop around Liverpool. I don't think though the City Line really has established boundaries. The_Engineer above gives a very good map to draw a decent idea though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Calderfornian was correct. Back in the day the City Line services included one DMU per hour Lime St to Wigan NW and another half an hour behind terminating at St Helens (Shaw St, as it was then).

At one stage (early 1980s maybe??) the St Helens terminators were extended to Garswood. This didn't last very long - a year or two, until the next round of funding cuts I'd guess - but it was a regular thing, not an arrangement for engineering work etc.

Ah, a bit before my time then. I suppose that was the day when PTE buses still turned round in the middle of a field just short of anywhere useful!

 

[B&I]

It's the set of services out of Lime Street which would be much more reliable if they were run by Merseyrail rather than Northern

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To further complicate matters, the City Line routes within the Merseytravel area now include TPE services at Lea Green and Newton le Willows.
Next year there will be TPE services at St Helens Central too (to Glasgow).
So the "operated by Northern" hardly applies now.
Liverpool South Parkway has EMT and LNWR (and Virgin on Lime St closure days).
There's also the "Liverpool City Region" area to consider which includes Halton (and the upcoming W&B Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester service).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I guess we are now down to the definition being similar to Verkehrsverbund RB/RE services in Germany, i.e. "any train that has two passenger calls within the Merseytravel area and is not operated by Merseyrail Electrics (2002) Ltd".

 

[urbophile]

Try this map!View attachment 51174

Why is Wallasey Grove Road in a different font?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Having grown up in Ashton-in-Makerfield it was always bizarre having to go to Bryn to go Wigan and Garswood to St. Helens because of the PTE boundary between the two mean that the fare difference between the two was several pounds (very important teenage age pounds as well). It also manifested itself in the bus to college that went through Garswood after Ashton but before Orrell so my fare was 50p but those just inside Merseyside and 2 and a bit miles closer to college was £2.50!

I always thought it would have been logical to put Bryn station in merseyside...

 

[driver_m]

Having grown up in Ashton-in-Makerfield it was always bizarre having to go to Bryn to go Wigan and Garswood to St. Helens because of the PTE boundary between the two mean that the fare difference between the two was several pounds (very important teenage age pounds as well). It also manifested itself in the bus to college that went through Garswood after Ashton but before Orrell so my fare was 50p but those just inside Merseyside and 2 and a bit miles closer to college was £2.50!

I always thought it would have been logical to put Bryn station in merseyside...

It'd be more logical still to have an effective Lancs/Cheshire ticket comprised of the old boundaries, rather than the current setup which seem to be primarily run for the benefit of Manchester and Liverpool alone. The current system is a nuisance in places along the split like Wigan, Warrington , St Helens etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd be more logical still to have an effective Lancs/Cheshire ticket comprised of the old boundaries, rather than the current setup which seem to be primarily run for the benefit of Manchester and Liverpool alone. The current system is a nuisance in places along the split like Wigan, Warrington , St Helens etc.

It would be nice to see a load of Transport for the North zonal tickets (including bus travel) as well as the "PTE" tickets, to be honest. The Swiss do this kind of thing quite well.

 

[Camden]

It'd be more logical still to have an effective Lancs/Cheshire ticket comprised of the old boundaries, rather than the current setup which seem to be primarily run for the benefit of Manchester and Liverpool alone. The current system is a nuisance in places along the split like Wigan, Warrington , St Helens etc.

The PTE system is what is used in major cities around the world, using the economies of scale of cities to provide enhanced transport at cost effective prices.

If you're in St Helens, then you have the benefit of being in a zonal system that can take you by frequent train anywhere in the city region for around £5. Not bad in my view.

As for Warrington, they could easily choose to come to some kind of accommodation vis a vis Ellesmere Port, Chester and Ormskirk, none of which are in the Liverpool PTE boundaries. Notably they turned their noses up at joining the Liverpool combined authority, so I assume they're not bothered. In terms of Wigan or anywhere else in Greater Manchester, if people feel they get a raw deal then they need to take that up with their respective democratic bodies. GM does very well when it comes to getting money for transport, so it appears to be a matter of what it's spent on.

Regarding the original topic, the reason for the confusion is that the Merseyrail City Line reflects a project which has been in limbo for 40 years. Whatever else the lines shared rails with, the intent always was and is to integrate the services fully into the Merseyrail offer. In fact, Liverpool's passive, no-influence, support for Rail North - subsequently morphed into Transport for the North - was conned out of them on a premise of examining the handover. That is why at the time mock-ups of 319 units in Merseyrail livery started to be produced...

If the Merseyrail project is ever restarted, what is or isn't a City Line station/service should become a lot clearer.

 

[Ianigsy]

The issue with the Wigan-St Helens-Widnes-Warrington area is that these towns have much more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester - they're industrial rugby league towns, not commercial cities. The 1974 reorganisation split them up from each other between three counties in a way which wouldn't have occurred organically. Somebody in St Helens may be able to go to West Kirby for £5 or thereabouts, but it isn't a journey which would be on most people's radar to make.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with the Wigan-St Helens-Widnes-Warrington area is that these towns have much more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester - they're industrial rugby league towns, not commercial cities. The 1974 reorganisation split them up from each other between three counties in a way which wouldn't have occurred organically. Somebody in St Helens may be able to go to West Kirby for £5 or thereabouts, but it isn't a journey which would be on most people's radar to make.

This is why a "Verkehrsverbund Nord", to chuck a bit of German in as it's a German model, would be a very good thing. The North as a whole (particuarly the North West conurbation that exists in the Liverpool-Manchester-Preston triangle and the places just outside of it) act like the Ruhrgebiet in Germany - a big intermeshed industrialised conurbation - and splitting the public transport systems arbitrarily between the three just doesn't make sense. Of course, the Germans know that, which is why we have the Rhein-Main-Verkehrsverbund for the whole lot, and not a separate Koelner Verkehrsverbund or whatever.

Zonal multi-modal ticketing across the whole North would be a very good start.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Thanks all for your answers. As it seems to me, the definiton is not very clear to you either, thank you anyways.

Try this map!View attachment 51174

I had already seen this map, but thanks anyways. As a matter of fact, I started this thread because I designed a map of Liverpool rail services myself, so during my research I did of course found this map as well. By the way, even though it is on Wikipedia, you cannot really just take a picture from there as most of the time, one needs to mention the author. Like this: DavidArthur, Merseyrail Map, CC BY-SA 4.0

This is why a "Verkehrsverbund Nord", to chuck a bit of German in as it's a German model, would be a very good thing. The North as a whole (particuarly the North West conurbation that exists in the Liverpool-Manchester-Preston triangle and the places just outside of it) act like the Ruhrgebiet in Germany - a big intermeshed industrialised conurbation - and splitting the public transport systems arbitrarily between the three just doesn't make sense. Of course, the Germans know that, which is why we have the Rhein-Main-Verkehrsverbund for the whole lot, and not a separate Koelner Verkehrsverbund or whatever.

Zonal multi-modal ticketing across the whole North would be a very good start.

A real Verkehrsverbund sort of thing in the North of England would really be a good idea, in my opinion anyways. When I was in Manchester last year, all the different bus, tram, rail and combo fares were really confusing and I was lucky to have a Britrail pass for the railways. If there was this thing, one would have to execute it in a good way though: you are mentioning that there is no “Kölner Verkehrsverbund”. As a matter of fact, the “Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Sieg” (VRS), in which Cologne is located, has a very arbitrary boundary with the “Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr” (VRR) which covers the Ruhrgebiet and the Lower Rhine area near the Dutch border, which makes travelling between, say, Düsseldorf, Wuppertal or Solingen to Cologne or Leverkusen unnecessarily difficult, complicated and expensive.

 

[B&I]

The issue with the Wigan-St Helens-Widnes-Warrington area is that these towns have much more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester - they're industrial rugby league towns, not commercial cities. The 1974 reorganisation split them up from each other between three counties in a way which wouldn't have occurred organically. Somebody in St Helens may be able to go to West Kirby for £5 or thereabouts, but it isn't a journey which would be on most people's radar to make.

I think removal of rail services between those towns drom 1951 onwards did more to kibbosh their transport links than the 1974 local government boundaries. Though a buffer state called 'Leagueland' could have benefits

 

[B&I]

Thanks all for your answers. As it seems to me, the definiton is not very clear to you either, thank you anyways.

I had already seen this map, but thanks anyways. As a matter of fact, I started this thread because I designed a map of Liverpool rail services myself, so during my research I did of course found this map as well. By the way, even though it is on Wikipedia, you cannot really just take a picture from there as most of the time, one needs to mention the author. Like this: DavidArthur, Merseyrail Map, CC BY-SA 4.0


A real Verkehrsverbund sort of thing in the North of England would really be a good idea, in my opinion anyways. When I was in Manchester last year, all the different bus, tram, rail and combo fares were really confusing and I was lucky to have a Britrail pass for the railways. If there was this thing, one would have to execute it in a good way though: you are mentioning that there is no “Kölner Verkehrsverbund”. As a matter of fact, the “Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Sieg” (VRS), in which Cologne is located, has a very arbitrary boundary with the “Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr” (VRR) which covers the Ruhrgebiet and the Lower Rhine area near the Dutch border, which makes travelling between, say, Düsseldorf, Wuppertal or Solingen to Cologne or Leverkusen unnecessarily difficult, complicated and expensive.

I think the German model would be a useful one to follow, so long as we followed it completely. As I understand it, cities within the region operate their own public transport, albeit something like the Cologne stadtbahn would be beyond the wildest fantasies of any non-London British city. We need a system which promotes effective links between cities, but also highly developed local transport

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes as mentioned above the 'City Line' was never actually a physical rail line, just a marketing strategy of Merseytravel to promote mainline rail services in their area. They also used to give extra subsidy to have Pacers in their yellow livery but the practise was stopped when the money stopped.

The real name of the Lines are Crewe-Liverpool Line, Liverpool–Manchester Line (Northern and Southern routes) and the Liverpool-Wigan line.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's the set of services out of Lime Street which would be much more reliable if they were run by Merseyrail rather than Northern

Ho ho ho! Because of course Merseyrail has so much experience of running diesel trains and HV AC electric trains, not to mention multiple interfaces with other TOCs. Oh wait...

It would be nice to see a load of Transport for the North zonal tickets (including bus travel) as well as the "PTE" tickets, to be honest. The Swiss do this kind of thing quite well.

Pretty sure TfN have already expressed an aspiration to introduce just such a system but it would require backward-looking parochialism to be overcome first. If this forum is anything to go by they'll have an uphill struggle with that.

The issue with the Wigan-St Helens-Widnes-Warrington area is that these towns have much more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester - they're industrial rugby league towns, not commercial cities. The 1974 reorganisation split them up from each other between three counties in a way which wouldn't have occurred organically. Somebody in St Helens may be able to go to West Kirby for £5 or thereabouts, but it isn't a journey which would be on most people's radar to make.

While I'll happily grant you the Rugby League connection I'm not sure that the residents of those towns are particularly interested in each other. Certainly as far as Wigan goes there is no connection with Widnes, Warrington, while quite close, is too "Southern" and St Helens is visited primarily by those with family connections, though there are plenty in this category. And similar patterns, in various combinations, exist in the other towns. The big cities of Liverpool and Manchester are much more significant draws these days, especially for employment, with plenty of traffic from each of the "RL4" to both of them. People can moan about the dominance of the cities all they like but in practice people have already voted with their feet.

 

[158756]

While I'll happily grant you the Rugby League connection I'm not sure that the residents of those towns are particularly interested in each other. Certainly as far as Wigan goes there is no connection with Widnes, Warrington, while quite close, is too "Southern" and St Helens is visited primarily by those with family connections, though there are plenty in this category. And similar patterns, in various combinations, exist in the other towns. The big cities of Liverpool and Manchester are much more significant draws these days, especially for employment, with plenty of traffic from each of the "RL4" to both of them. People can moan about the dominance of the cities all they like but in practice people have already voted with their feet.

The biggest travel to work flows in the 2011 census from St Helens and Halton boroughs were to Warrington, from Warrington it was to Halton, from Wigan to Bolton with Warrington second. The prevalence of long distance commuting often seems to be overestimated, especially by those tasked with improving transport in the north.

 

[M28361M]

It's perhaps notable that Merseytravel recently redid their rail network map, and instead of saying "Merseyrail" at the top, it is now titled "Local Rail Network Map". In the map key, the Northern and Wirral Lines are identified as "Merseyrail" but not the City Line.

One other source of confusion is that old-Northern replaced the signage at their stations a few years ago, with new co-branded signs that had both the Merseyrail M and the Northern logo, but at the franchise changeover the Northern logo was blanked out and not replaced, so the only brand now visible is that of Merseyrail. It's a bit of a mess.

Northern still has "Merseyrail City Lines" as a service group in their performance statistics but doesn't actually define what those services are.