Delay - Repay claim partial rejection by Southern - opinion sought

[WesternLancer]

Hi - on Friday 26 August two of us were travelling Southampton Central to Berwick (sussex) leaving S'Ton Cntl at 10.28
That train from Southampton was delayed by 19 mis arriving in Brighton - so we missed the coastway east connection to Berwick (the 12.30 to Hastings due at Berwick at 12.59 IIRC)

We thus arrived at Berwick on the next train from Brighton (departing Brighton 13.30 I assume) 1 hour later than planned. It is an hourly service.

I have claimed delay repay but Southern have only paid saying we were "30 to 59 minutes late".

I am considering an appeal on this
But
can anyone check if the train I caught from Brighton ran a minute or two early or some such that day to see if that is an explanation of why I have not been paid for a 1 hour delay, but paid for the lower threshold?

any other advice on whether I should or should not appeal on this gratefully considered.

The ticket was a 1st class off peak return with a 2 together railcard discount applied.

Thanks in advance

 

[miklcct]

The system showed the train arrived at 13:57, i.e. 59 minutes late.

This can happen sometimes - I look at my watch carefully on late trains in order to input the correct claim for Delay Repay. For example, I once missed 2 connections and ended up on a train which was 30 minutes after than planned, but that train departed and arrived 1 minute early, making my actual delay only 29 minutes so I had to claim for 15-29.

 

[Hadders]

It is disgraceful for rail companies to treat delay replay claims in this way. Barry Doe has written about it extensively in Rail Magazine lately, to no avail. Apparently this is whatthe DfT want.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree this is bad. Back in my time at Virgin West Coast (which now seems like time immemorial), there was a cut off of something like 57 minutes for a 60 minute claim, which was intended to cover eventualities like this.

If I was running that department every claim with a 58-59 minute validated delay would come past me and if it was due to a later train arriving one minute early I’d simply pay out on 60 minutes and explain in the letter it was a gesture of goodwill.

 

[WesternLancer]

Many thanks all - @miklcct - appreciate that link with the backdated running log.

@Hadders - I'd read Barry Doe's column on this broader issue but for some reason had not appreciated I was in precisely the circs concerned!

@AlterEgo - a commendable and sensible approach.

Sounds like it's probably only worth appealing to get the satisfaction of time having been spent on dealing with the appeal. I probably need to point the finger of blame at the DfT and raise it with my MP - a shame she is not still on the Transport Select Committee or it may have been a good case example to present to a Minister or Official at some question session or other!

On the theme - some time after I posted the thread, my fellow traveller recalled that she had taken a screen grab of the Real Time Trains log on the day of travel and shared it with me. That showed an arrival at Berwick at 13.57 and 3/4 of a minute (13.57 and 45 seconds) - so I guess timetablehistory.com does not log 1/4 minutes.

So that would suggest the delay repay payment I claimed has been missed by 15 seconds....

 

[ServerHoster]

So that would suggest the delay repay payment I claimed has been missed by 15 seconds....

Yes, this exact scenario happened to me. Avanti due to arrive at xx:07 and my connection due to leave at xx:17. This connection was due to arrive at my local station at something like xx:24 Of course, Avanti was late and missed connection. Next train was at xx:48, due to arrive xx:55. Lo and behold, it is 75 seconds early so arrives at xx:53 and 3/4.

And of course, Avanti only pays out 15-29 mins worth of compensation.

 

[WesternLancer]

Making a D-R claim appeal with Southern is a bit of nightmare. I can only seem to find the on line contact form (which is generic and not related to D-R) and then have to fill in all the journey details all over again - plus deal with confusing sections that seem to presume I am a season ticket holder / Key Go holder etc.

It could not be designed to be less helpful if they tried...

Unless I am missing something.

Interestingly the other travelers claim is not yet settled but is listed on the online claim account as 'referred' suggesting that the 2nd, exact same claim, is being handled differently to the one already decided by Southern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did appeal successfully to LNR in this sort of situation, basically saying they were taking the mick, and they paid it.

 

[WesternLancer]

I did appeal successfully to LNR in this sort of situation, basically saying they were taking the mick, and they paid it.

Thanks @Bletchleyite - fingers crossed! It's the sheer difficulty of appealing this that is now annoying me even more...

 

[mafeu]

I’ve noticed that the indication to the signalling system that a train has arrived/departed can be quite a stretch down the line.

So how do we define the arrival time for Delay Repay? Is it when the signal is triggered or when the train is at platform and the doors are released? I’d say the later is more appropriate.

I know we’ve taken back control () but I see this EU flight compensation case as having relevance even if it is related to aviation.Link

 

[Chrisgr31]

Making a D-R claim appeal with Southern is a bit of nightmare. I can only seem to find the on line contact form (which is generic and not related to D-R) and then have to fill in all the journey details all over again - plus deal with confusing sections that seem to presume I am a season ticket holder / Key Go holder etc.

It could not be designed to be less helpful if they tried...

Unless I am missing something.

Interestingly the other travelers claim is not yet settled but is listed on the online claim account as 'referred' suggesting that the 2nd, exact same claim, is being handled differently to the one already decided by Southern.

In order to appeal with Southern you basically have to resubmit the delay repay application. So you go in to the Delay Repay account select the relevant date ticket, train etc and then select resubmitted claim. The only flaw of course being that if by the time you get the response to your claim the 28 days is up, you cant select the date so you cant resubmit.

My daughter had this recently. To be fair I tweeted Southern and explained why her claim was valid. They then said she needed to contact them. So I sent her a screenshot of my conversation with Southern which she sent them. Couple of days later she had a message from Southern confirming her claim was valid after all.

 

[Watershed]

I’ve noticed that the indication to the signalling system that a train has arrived/departed can be quite a stretch down the line.

So how do we define the arrival time for Delay Repay? Is it when the signal is triggered or when the train is at platform and the doors are released? I’d say the later is more appropriate.

I know we’ve taken back control () but I see this EU flight compensation case as having relevance even if it is related to aviation.Link

Train running information is indeed generally based on signalling system data. But the time that the train passes the last signal before the platform isn't the time used for arrival - there are offset values which are designed to account for the average time it takes the train to arrive. These vary from a few seconds to several minutes, depending on the location.

Of course these values won't always be 100% accurate and so if you have a highly borderline case, it may be worthwhile taking a photo/video of when you arrive at the station to prove the exact time (ideally including a station clock).

The time the doors are released is what matters - you cannot leave the train until that point and I have no reason to believe the Courts would interpret things differently in this respect for railways than in aviation.

 

[WesternLancer]

In order to appeal with Southern you basically have to resubmit the delay repay application. So you go in to the Delay Repay account select the relevant date ticket, train etc and then select resubmitted claim. The only flaw of course being that if by the time you get the response to your claim the 28 days is up, you cant select the date so you cant resubmit.

My daughter had this recently. To be fair I tweeted Southern and explained why her claim was valid. They then said she needed to contact them. So I sent her a screenshot of my conversation with Southern which she sent them. Couple of days later she had a message from Southern confirming her claim was valid after all.

Thanks for this - we used the message system on their web page to request an Appeal - not yet heard back so wonder when we will. The method you describe is not made clear on their site / D-R pages in any way - which is very poor, so thanks for outlining this.

Today is 26 days since original delay so maybe I need to try that.

One of the claims is still listed on the log in page for processing them as 'under review' - I wonder how long that will remain like that - probably until after 28 days.

They seem to have an unacceptably poor system to make challenging their decisions very hard and awkward. What a surprise....

In order to appeal with Southern you basically have to resubmit the delay repay application. So you go in to the Delay Repay account select the relevant date ticket, train etc and then select resubmitted claim. The only flaw of course being that if by the time you get the response to your claim the 28 days is up, you cant select the date so you cant resubmit.

UPDATE
Now tried this - it is incredibly frustrating - on 'resubmitting' there is no place to say your are appealing a claim or to write why you disagree with the payment made. For all I know the system will just generate the same result or simply say 'claim already settled' but we shall see.

It's all made worse in my case as there were 2 of us travelling on a 2-together railcard and I submitted both claims on 28 August. One D-R repayment has been made at the 30-59 mins delay level as described above, the other is shown in my 'claims history' page as 'referred' - no explanation of what this means but I assume it means it has been passed to a person to consider it - even tho the other one on the exact same trains has been paid presumably withotu human intervention. There is no way to resubmit the 'referred' one as you need a claims ref number to do that and you only get ones of these numbers when the claim is settled! And no way to ask why they are sitting on the 'referred' one or how long they will take to do this. Tho they say they aim to respond in 20 working days and I suppose we have not got to that time yet.

One of the worst D-R claims process i have engaged with and I have probably spent as long trying to do all this (v time consuming to add all the journey details in every time for each ticket as you have to do) as it takes to do the journey concerned in real time!

 

[Chrisgr31]

They do eventually come back to you on referred claims. I have had some rejected (cause of this thread) others accepted.

I do agree that the suggestion you resubmit and the lack of information on how to do it is appalling. Maybe I‘ll submit a complaint about it!

In the meantime my FOI request on the matter of delay repay the day after strikes has been rejected on the grounds that it is government policy!

 

[WesternLancer]

They do eventually come back to you on referred claims. I have had some rejected (cause of this thread) others accepted.

I do agree that the suggestion you resubmit and the lack of information on how to do it is appalling. Maybe I‘ll submit a complaint about it!

In the meantime my FOI request on the matter of delay repay the day after strikes has been rejected on the grounds that it is government policy!

Thanks. I had raised it with Customer Services before you posted your helpful note on how to do it - their reply came today and states:

I’m sorry to learn that you’re unhappy with the outcome of your claim. We are able to reassess your claim, however, as we unfortunately have no way of altering a decision once it has been made, please may we ask that you first resubmit via our website www.southernrailway.com/delayrepay.
In order to resubmit your claim please fill out the online Delay Repay form as normal, however, select 'Resubmitted Claim' under the heading ‘Why were you delayed?' and ensure you include your case reference XXXXXXX in the ‘Reference ID’ box. This will prevent our system from declining the claim as a duplicate, allowing me or one of my colleagues to review this for you.

Thanks again for getting in touch. I look forward to receiving your claim.

Remarkable that they deem it acceptable to not advise on their website how to appeal, but to leave you to find a way to ask them (which involves submitting all the journey details again as a customer service enquiry also requires that) and then they have to spend time replying to such questions, which must surely be an FAQ if ever there was one. Clearly IMHO all this is designed to make customers think there is no Appeal process they can use and accept the initial response and / or to make them give up trying and reduce D-R payments.

So this is the 3rd time I have had to submit journey details! Once for the original claim, once to ask customer services about it, once to resubmit the claim...

I note the time target for D-R claims is 20 working days (tho claims must be in 28 days as we know - why use different categories? Just adds to confusion), so the 'referred claim' can sit under that until 27 sept until that time is reached, so I guess I will wait to hear in due course.

 

[paul1609]

I dont have the historical timetables but are you sure that if you missed the connection at Brighton it wasnt possible to get the next train to Lewes possibly a Seaford service and then change there for the service from Victoria to Berwick. Berwick usually has 2 tph one from London one from Brighton and they are at roughly 30 min intervals.

 

[WesternLancer]

I dont have the historical timetables but are you sure that if you missed the connection at Brighton it wasnt possible to get the next train to Lewes possibly a Seaford service and then change there for the service from Victoria to Berwick. Berwick usually has 2 tph one from London one from Brighton and they are at roughly 30 min intervals.

Thanks Paul
Berwick no longer has 2 trains per hour AFAIK (well not 2 per hour that actually stop there ) since the southern timetable re-cast or post covid - only the Brighton - Eastbourne/Hastings hourly east coastway stoppers (plus a few extras to / from London morning and evening). I'm pretty sure of this.

In fact I think Berwick only had 2 trains per hour to the pattern you suggest with one of the ex Victoria to Eastbourne services stopping there through the day on Sundays - a pattern that ceased some years ago IIRC, tho I would stand corrected if I was wrong about this.

Happy for you to check as you don't need the historical timetables as it was a recent weekday service pattern when I was delayed which is the same timetable as is now
eg as per today's pattern shown here:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Berwick (Sussex) between 0600 and 2000 on 23/09/2022

Train information at Berwick (Sussex) between 0600 and 2000 on 23/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[bubieyehyeh]

My last delay repay claim with Southern, for a 40min delay, paid out a 15-29min delay. I sent a message on their web form, asking them to look again, they replied after 2 weeks asking for the details. I replied and two week later I get a reply saying I can't appeal, and to go to ombudsman for 2 journeys, so they had mixed up my claim with someone else. So I replied and two week later I get a reply saying they had looked at my claim again and the decision was correct. So I replied for a third time and asked for someone senior to check the claim. and 2 weeks later, 8 weeks after the reply to my initial delay repay claim, they accepted my delay was due 30-59min compensation I had claimed for.

It is just sheer incompetence and/or overworked staff not checking stuff properly.

 

[WesternLancer]

My last delay repay claim with Southern, for a 40min delay, paid out a 15-29min delay. I sent a message on their web form, asking them to look again, they replied after 2 weeks asking for the details. I replied and two week later I get a reply saying I can't appeal, and to go to ombudsman for 2 journeys, so they had mixed up my claim with someone else. So I replied and two week later I get a reply saying they had looked at my claim again and the decision was correct. So I replied for a third time and asked for someone senior to check the claim. and 2 weeks later, 8 weeks after the reply to my initial delay repay claim, they accepted my delay was due 30-59min compensation I had claimed for.

It is just sheer incompetence and/or overworked staff not checking stuff properly.

Thanks for posting - gives me an idea what to expect. Shocking example. Mind you my frustrations have been at least caused by the bad design of their on line claim process as much as their decision! Tho without the latter the former would not have been revealed to me.

Update 28 Sept: after resubmitting claim as advised by Southern Customer Services a further 2 D-R payments have been made but it is impossible to know what they are actually for. I think one may be for the further compensation for 1 person's ticket to bring the payment from 25% to 50% (or what I requested) and the other payment is for the 2nd person's claim that had been 'referred' but has only been paid at 25% (not the 50% requested) - but this is a total guess and if you are reading this thread and confused - well so am I.

Only option now seem to be to e-mail customer services again to find out why the 2nd person's missing 25% has not been paid. Can't use a simple re-submit now IIRC as more than 28 days gone past since date of travel whilst they have sat on the whole thing!

Update 18 October: It seems that on checking despite 3 e-mails from Southern indicating sums to be paid only 2 sums have been paid into bank account. In response to further appeal to customer services a further payment in rail vouchers has been dispatched which will when rec'd finally result in a compensation payment equal to the delay that I claimed for (1 hour)! Whilst this will be good to get it has certainly taken more of my time to claim than the time I was actually delayed by!
Southern's appeal system is inefficient both for them and for the passenger and the whole thing has been very frustrating.

Hopefully the vouchers for the balance owed will arrive soon and I can consider the matter closed.

Update 1 Nov: The rail travel vouchers finally arrived from Southern which meets the claim in full. circa 10 weeks after the delay...
But I'm pleased they accepted the claim.

I'd say their own internal procedures were very in efficient - which must drive up their costs of administering their own D-R scheme. Tho I suspect this has to be set against the number of claims that passengers just give up on and thus payments reduced.