Delay repay with two tickets, separate train companies

[polkadots]

I travelled today from London Euston to Oxenholme lake district. Due to complications, I had to book two separate tickets. One from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (avanti) and one from Manchester Piccadilly to Oxenholme (transpenine express). I left 16 minutes to change.

However, the train from Euston to Manchester was delayed by 14 minutes, meaning I only had 2 minutes to change. Although I ran through the station I missed the train!

I was advised to wait for the next transpenine express train which wasn't due to arrive at oxenholme until 2 hours 3 mins after my booked train.

Am i entitled to any delay repay compensation here? Thank you

 

[tspaul26]

What tickets did you hold?

From, To, Route, Type

 

[AlterEgo]

I travelled today from London Euston to Oxenholme lake district. Due to complications, I had to book two separate tickets. One from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (avanti) and one from Manchester Piccadilly to Oxenholme (transpenine express). I left 16 minutes to change.

However, the train from Euston to Manchester was delayed by 14 minutes, meaning I only had 2 minutes to change. Although I ran through the station I missed the train!

I was advised to wait for the next transpenine express train which wasn't due to arrive at oxenholme until 2 hours 3 mins after my booked train.

Am i entitled to any delay repay compensation here? Thank you

You are entitled to delay repay compensation for the full delay from Avanti West Coast. You should claim from them.

 

[All Line Rover]

Expecting you to wait over two hours for the following service if a taxi or alternative route was available is (i) unacceptable from a customer service standpoint and (ii) likely unlawful. Unfortunately, it is all too common.

 

[polkadots]

London euston - manchester piccadilly, advance single, avanti west coast

Manchester Piccadilly - oxenholme lake district, advance single, transpenine express

You are entitled to delay repay compensation for the full delay from Avanti West Coast. You should claim from them.

Thank you. I was just hesitant because on their website it says customers can only claim compensation if the journey is booked under one ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

London euston - manchester piccadilly, advance single, avanti west coast

Manchester Piccadilly - oxenholme lake district, advance single, transpenine express


Thank you. I was just hesitant because on their website it says customers can only claim compensation if the journey is booked under one ticket

It doesn't say that - indeed, their claim system has a "I used more than one ticket" option to make it really easy!

 

[tspaul26]

London euston - manchester piccadilly, advance single, avanti west coast

Manchester Piccadilly - oxenholme lake district, advance single, transpenine express

You are entitled to delay repay compensation for the full delay from Avanti West Coast. You should claim from them.

Agreed. A claim to Avanti for a delay of over two hours.

You can upload both tickets to the website.

 

[polkadots]

Thanks everyone!

 

[800Travel]

Expecting you to wait over two hours for the following service if a taxi or alternative route was available is (i) unacceptable from a customer service standpoint and (ii) likely unlawful. Unfortunately, it is all too common.

Sounds like Avanti should've provided alternative routing or a taxi as the other poster said.

That said, I couldn't see anything in the NRCoT re taxis. @AllLineRover - is there any legislation to back up a customer requesting a TOC to provide a taxi and does it state any particular length of time until the next service that would be deemed unreasonable for a passenger please?

 

[cool110]

is there any legislation to back up a customer requesting a TOC to provide a taxi and does it state any particular length of time until the next service that would be deemed unreasonable for a passenger please?

It's part of the pre-Brexit EU Regulation No 1371/2007

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:
...
(b) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity
...

Whether a taxi will be "earliest opportunity" or not is down to the individual situation at the time.

 

[800Travel]

It's part of the pre-Brexit EU Regulation No 1371/2007

Whether a taxi will be "earliest opportunity" or not is down to the individual situation at the time.

Thanks for this - has this been re-enshrined in UK law or is it now invalid post Brexit please?

Also, is the TOC supposed to offer this to customers - or is the customer meant to request it?

And if the TOC is supposed to offer it but didn’t, is there any compensation above and beyond the 60 minute delay repay please?

Thank you

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for this - has this been re-enshrined in UK law or is it now invalid post Brexit please?

I'm pretty sure it's the other way round - in other words all "pre-Brexit" legislation remains in place unless explicitly repealed. It'd have been madness if it had been otherwise, in terms of legislation. If you recall, there was a big fuss a few months ago because some right-wing Tories wanted to torch a lot of the legislation, but common sense prevailed and it didn't happen as they wanted.
For example, https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eu-legislation-and-uk-law says

EU legislation which applied directly or indirectly to the UK before 11.00 p.m. on 31 December 2020 was retained in UK law as a novel form of domestic legislation known as ‘retained EU legislation’. This is set out in sections 2 and 3 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (c. 16). Section 4 of the 2018 Act ensures that any remaining EU rights and obligations, including directly effective rights within EU treaties, continue to be recognised and available in domestic law after exit. After the end of 2023, ‘retained EU law’ became known as ‘assimilated law’, by section 5 of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 (c. 28).

 

[Haywain]

Whether a taxi will be "earliest opportunity" or not is down to the individual situation at the time.

I would say that it is debatable whether a taxi meets the description of "comparable transport conditions". The assertion that a taxi should be provided is based on opinion, and nothing more. As it happens, it is what train companies tend to do when they run out of other options, but the entitlement (to a taxi, specifically) is far from clear - the obligation is to get the passenger to their destination and if they choose to do that by providing a minibus to move several people there are no clear grounds to object.

 

[800Travel]

I would say that it is debatable whether a taxi meets the description of "comparable transport conditions". The assertion that a taxi should be provided is based on opinion, and nothing more. As it happens, it is what train companies tend to do when they run out of other options, but the entitlement (to a taxi, specifically) is far from clear - the obligation is to get the passenger to their destination and if they choose to do that by providing a minibus to move several people there are no clear grounds to object.

So if a TOC cancels a service, doesn’t arrange ticket acceptance with other operators, doesn’t provide taxi or bus etc., and states instead to catch their next operated service which is expected to arrive at the destination more than 60 minutes later, this is in violation of that legislation?

And instead they should put in place acceptance, or allow fee free refunds, or provide taxis etc.?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for this - has this been re-enshrined in UK law or is it now invalid post Brexit please?

Also, is the TOC supposed to offer this to customers - or is the customer meant to request it?

And if the TOC is supposed to offer it but didn’t, is there any compensation above and beyond the 60 minute delay repay please?

Thank you

As with all EU law and judgments in force on 31 December 2020, it was automatically retained post-Brexit by virtue of the EU Exit Act. It hasn't been amended or repealed in any way since then and thus remains in place.

Customers are entitled to request re-routing - technically speaking, unlike the right to refreshments and overnight accommodation (where applicable) there is no obligation on TOCs to proactively offer it.

There is no automatic compensation for breach of the right to re-routing (although of course if you accept whatever inferior option the TOC offers, that may increase their delay compensation liability). This is why the best way of handling such situations is usually to get the refusal to re-route in writing (e.g. through social media) and then keep the receipts for any reasonable costs you incur in re-routing yourself. You can then claim back those costs.

I would say that it is debatable whether a taxi meets the description of "comparable transport conditions". The assertion that a taxi should be provided is based on opinion, and nothing more. As it happens, it is what train companies tend to do when they run out of other options, but the entitlement (to a taxi, specifically) is far from clear - the obligation is to get the passenger to their destination and if they choose to do that by providing a minibus to move several people there are no clear grounds to object.

I agree that there could be questions about it falling under "comparable transport conditions". However it is much clearer that alternative transport (which may of course take the form of a taxi) must be provided if there appears to be no prospect of completing the journey by rail - Article 18(3) of the PRO refers.

So if a TOC cancels a service, doesn’t arrange ticket acceptance with other operators, doesn’t provide taxi or bus etc., and states instead to catch their next operated service which is expected to arrive at the destination more than 60 minutes later, this is in violation of that legislation?

And instead they should put in place acceptance, or allow fee free refunds, or provide taxis etc.?

It's undoubtedly a breach of the PRO obligations to fail to arrange ticket acceptance (or the equivalent, such as buying passengers new Any Permitted tickets) with other rail operators, but as mentioned above your recourse is effectively limited to the relevant delay compensation and being reimbursed any reasonable expenses you incur in re-routing yourself.

With other modes of transport it is perhaps a little more contentious; I would have said that other land-based modes of public transport can certainly qualify as "comparable transport conditions" indeed the new version of the PRO (that now applies in the EU) says as much - explicitly entitling passengers to claim back reasonable expenses for rebooking themselves on alternative rail, bus or coach operators.

But if there are no land-based public transport options within a reasonable period of time, then alternatives such as taxis or (in limited cases) air travel could be recoverable.

 

[800Travel]

As with all EU law and judgments in force on 31 December 2020, it was automatically retained post-Brexit by virtue of the EU Exit Act. It hasn't been amended or repealed in any way since then and thus remains in place.

Customers are entitled to request re-routing - technically speaking, unlike the right to refreshments and overnight accommodation (where applicable) there is no obligation on TOCs to proactively offer it.

There is no automatic compensation for breach of the right to re-routing (although of course if you accept whatever inferior option the TOC offers, that may increase their delay compensation liability). This is why the best way of handling such situations is usually to get the refusal to re-route in writing (e.g. through social media) and then keep the receipts for any reasonable costs you incur in re-routing yourself. You can then claim back those costs.


I agree that there could be questions about it falling under "comparable transport conditions". However it is much clearer that alternative transport (which may of course take the form of a taxi) must be provided if there appears to be no prospect of completing the journey by rail - Article 18(3) of the PRO refers.


It's undoubtedly a breach of the PRO obligations to fail to arrange ticket acceptance (or the equivalent, such as buying passengers new Any Permitted tickets) with other rail operators, but as mentioned above your recourse is effectively limited to the relevant delay compensation and being reimbursed any reasonable expenses you incur in re-routing yourself.

With other modes of transport it is perhaps a little more contentious; I would have said that other land-based modes of public transport can certainly qualify as "comparable transport conditions" indeed the new version of the PRO (that now applies in the EU) says as much - explicitly entitling passengers to claim back reasonable expenses for rebooking themselves on alternative rail, bus or coach operators.

But if there are no land-based public transport options within a reasonable period of time, then alternatives such as taxis or (in limited cases) air travel could be recoverable.

Thank you @Watershed

Re refreshments, would a TOC be obliged to offer them if the delay was going to be more than 60 minutes and you were still at the station please? And how do they go about offering them, if for example there is only one cancelled train for which no acceptance has been arranged as opposed to a station full of people who cannot travel due to widespread disruption? Is this something the customer would just purchase and then make a claim for reimbursement for as opposed to being contacted by the TOC offering refreshments? I've had a look at 18(3) and it suggests the TOC should arrange this, but all they said on JourneyCheck was:

'16:07 Edinburgh to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:43 has been cancelled. This is due to a shortage of train drivers.
Further Information
Please board the next available CrossCountry service to your required station. You may also board the CrossCountry service before this amended service. Unfortunately, any seat reservations will not be carried over, but Coach B, F, H and L are our unreserved coaches (where available) so please head to them. You can view the formation of our trains via www.realtimetrains.co.uk'

Nothing about acceptance, or refreshments etc.

 

[Watershed]

Re refreshments, would a TOC be obliged to offer them if the delay was going to be more than 60 minutes and you were still at the station please?

Yes.

And how do they go about offering them, if for example there is only one cancelled train for which no acceptance has been arranged as opposed to a station full of people who cannot travel due to widespread disruption? Is this something the customer would just purchase and then make a claim for reimbursement for as opposed to being contacted by the TOC offering refreshments? I've had a look at 18(3) and it suggests the TOC should arrange this, but all they said on JourneyCheck was:

'16:07 Edinburgh to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:43 has been cancelled. This is due to a shortage of train drivers.
Further Information
Please board the next available CrossCountry service to your required station. You may also board the CrossCountry service before this amended service. Unfortunately, any seat reservations will not be carried over, but Coach B, F, H and L are our unreserved coaches (where available) so please head to them. You can view the formation of our trains via www.realtimetrains.co.uk'

Nothing about acceptance, or refreshments etc.

Unfortunately TOCs don't tell customers about their rights and routinely ignore even those customers who do know their rights. So the easiest and most practical thing is to pay and claim back the cost afterwards. Therefore it's important to keep your receipt.

 

[Haywain]

unlike the right to refreshments

I'm interested - what is this based on?

 

[800Travel]

Yes.


Unfortunately TOCs don't tell customers about their rights and routinely ignore even those customers who do know their rights. So the easiest and most practical thing is to pay and claim back the cost afterwards. Therefore it's important to keep your receipt.

Thanks for confirming @Watershed - is there any kind of industry standard tiers/limits relative to the timeframe of delay please? I cannot find anything online etc.

I'm interested - what is this based on?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rail-passengers-right-and-obligations#fnref:1

Article 18, part 1

The link is to the PRO obligations

"In the case of delays over 60 minutes, the passenger shall be offered free of charge:

1. meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to the waiting time if these are available on the train or station or can be reasonably[footnote 1] supplied"

 

[Watershed]

I'm interested - what is this based on?

Article 18.2 of the PRO, as referenced.

 

[Haywain]

Article 18.2 of the PRO, as referenced.

That would explain why it never happens!

 

[Watershed]

That would explain why it never happens!

Ha, quite! It is also referenced in the NRCoT but of course in the usual "

Thanks for confirming @Watershed - is there any kind of industry standard tiers/limits relative to the timeframe of delay please? I cannot find anything online etc.

The legislation says "in reasonable relation to the waiting time". So don't go overboard, but basically just buy whatever you would eat/drink if not for the delay. Alcoholic refreshments are usually not considered reimbursable with the equivalent EU261 provision for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, but I'd steer clear just in case.

 

[800Travel]

Thanks @Watershed - I'd imagine a hot drink and a snack would likely be fine by the sounds of things. I've drafted a message below to roll out in the future if there is disruption. Does this seem reasonable and correct please, or is there anything I should add/remove? Thank you

"Hi [TOC],

My service from [Origin] to [Destination] at [Time] today has been [Delayed/Cancelled]. The next service my ticket is valid on is the [Time, Operator, Destination].

As this is an expected delay of more than 60 minutes, under the PRO article 15 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2007-on-rail-passengers-right-and-obligations) I am requesting re-routing to continue my journey at the earliest opportunity please. This must be in the form of ticket acceptance with another operator on the next service such as the [Time, Operator, Destination] or [Time, Operator, Destination], or another method of transport such as a taxi. If you’re unable to re-route me, I will arrange this myself and then reclaim the costs as permitted under the PRO.

Alternatively, if no re-routing seems possible and I’ve not been able to sort this myself, under the PRO article 18 I should be offered free of charge meals and refreshments in relation to the waiting time. Please may you arrange a voucher for me to use to purchase these, or agree a 'reasonable' spending limit up to which you will reimburse me for? At my location, there is a [Shop Brand] and a [Cafe Brand].

Thank you"

Not part of the message, but to abide by the forum rules - the link provided is to the passenger rights obligations on the gov.uk site. The relevant section of article 15 is 'continuation or re-routing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity' and of article 18 is 'meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to the waiting time if these are available on the train or station or can be reasonably supplied'

I've included the bit about what there is in case they want to give a gift card or something to use at the shop - not sure how it works really, especially when that TOC has no presence at the station and it is run by a different TOC.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks @Watershed - I'd imagine a hot drink and a snack would likely be fine by the sounds of things. I've drafted a message below to roll out in the future if there is disruption. Does this seem reasonable and correct please, or is there anything I should add/remove? Thank you

"Hi [TOC],

My service from [Origin] to [Destination] at [Time] today has been [Delayed/Cancelled]. The next service my ticket is valid on is the [Time, Operator, Destination].

As this is an expected delay of more than 60 minutes, under the PRO article 15 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2007-on-rail-passengers-right-and-obligations) I am requesting re-routing to continue my journey at the earliest opportunity please. This must be in the form of ticket acceptance with another operator on the next service such as the [Time, Operator, Destination] or [Time, Operator, Destination], or another method of transport such as a taxi. If you’re unable to re-route me, I will arrange this myself and then reclaim the costs as permitted under the PRO.

Alternatively, if no re-routing seems possible and I’ve not been able to sort this myself, under the PRO article 18 I should be offered free of charge meals and refreshments in relation to the waiting time. Please may you arrange a voucher for me to use to purchase these, or agree a 'reasonable' spending limit up to which you will reimburse me for? At my location, there is a [Shop Brand] and a [Cafe Brand].

Thank you"

Not part of the message, but to abide by the forum rules - the link provided is to the passenger rights obligations on the gov.uk site. The relevant section of article 15 is 'continuation or re-routing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity' and of article 18 is 'meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to the waiting time if these are available on the train or station or can be reasonably supplied'

I've included the bit about what there is in case they want to give a gift card or something to use at the shop - not sure how it works really, especially when that TOC has no presence at the station and it is run by a different TOC.

How do you plan on sending that message?

It is extremely unlikely you will receive any sort of substantial response from a train company, especially in the moment of disruption.

Save yourself the hassle; buy the refreshments, get your taxi/another ticket and keep the receipts. The Regulations are the Regulations. Life's too short for this sort of thing and you're wasting your time.

 

[800Travel]

How do you plan on sending that message?

It is extremely unlikely you will receive any sort of substantial response from a train company, especially in the moment of disruption.

Save yourself the hassle; buy the refreshments, get your taxi/another ticket and keep the receipts. The Regulations are the Regulations. Life's too short for this sort of thing and you're wasting your time.

Probably over social media. I thought the general advice was to request re-routing prior to arranging it myself - hence the message.

I agree just sorting myself out and keeping receipts and submitting claims is quicker in the moment, but if they can arrange it and save me the hassle of trying to reclaim that’s probably easier for me.

Especially given that ‘reasonable’ seems to be in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Watershed]

Whilst in principle there is nothing wrong with that message (other than that the right to re-routing comes under Article 16 rather than 15 - the gov.uk guidance has a slightly misleading index) I just wouldn't bother sending something that long.

I've previously just explained the situation in brief over TwXitter and asked to be re-routed to allow me to travel on X operator's train. Then when the answer inevitably comes back as "no", I buy whatever additional ticket is needed and claim it back.

There is absolutely nil chance of them providing you with any way of getting refreshments on the train, and the PRO requires them to be proactively offered. So I would just pay and claim back for these.

 

[800Travel]

Whilst in principle there is nothing wrong with that message (other than that the right to re-routing comes under Article 16 rather than 15 - the gov.uk guidance has a slightly misleading index) I just wouldn't bother sending something that long.

I've previously just explained the situation in brief over TwXitter and asked to be re-routed to allow me to travel on X operator's train. Then when the answer inevitably comes back as "no", I buy whatever additional ticket is needed and claim it back.

There is absolutely nil chance of them providing you with any way of getting refreshments on the train, and the PRO requires them to be proactively offered. So I would just pay and claim back for these.

Thanks for this - just had a look back at the GOV.UK one and they've entirely missed out article 16. Where can this be found to link to please? Thank you

EDIT - never mind, they link to it