Demand Responsive Transport

[edwin_m]

Where it might work is the journey home. For many people it's not too critical exactly when they arrive. So maybe a DRT could fill the gap of people returning home from late trains or if working late, in the absence of decent evening bus services?

This does of course leave the question of whether the vehicles could do anything to earn their keep for the rest of the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This does of course leave the question of whether the vehicles could do anything to earn their keep for the rest of the day.

I think what you'd want to do is have your local transport system made up of a collection of different sized vehicles, some of which would do timetabled work all day on the key busiest routes (in MK that's the 4, 5 and 6 and to a lesser extent the 2), and some would do peak-only timetabled work (e.g. arrivals in town 0800-0930 and departures from town 1630-1830) but would operate DRT style at other times.

One thing I do wonder is if the legal framework exists in the UK for operating "matatu"/"jitney"/"songthaew" style - which is basically what it is, but with a mobile app on top. I'm not totally sure it does - it's basically a hybrid bus/taxi arrangement, whereas the UK has totally separate legislation governing each, and you kind-of have to be one or the other. For instance it might actually make sense to have services inbound to your town operating a fixed route/timetable service, but instead having vehicles on hand at the "bus station" to take people home on a far more ad-hoc type basis, with the "end of service" constraint just being "we will ensure we 'sweep up' all passengers who are waiting at the stop by 2300", say. That would actually be a very effective way of operating a hospital service, where (ambulances and A&E aside) arrival times are very much strict and fixed, but when you get out is a total guessing game.

It all offers lots of quite good opportunities for tailoring public transport to its users, really. However what I am firmly of the view is that Via and MK Council have got it very, very wrong, to the point of it being basically useless for anything other than ad-hoc shopping trips.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

But the biggest question is probably this - given that DRT operates using smaller vehicles, typically no more than 16 passenger seats but often far fewer (the MK vehicles are I think 6 passengers) - is this, in an urban setting, actually going to save any money at all over a full-sized single decker doing a circuit around town once an hour?

In a rural setting, DRT certainly isn't going to save any money without a massive cut in the numbers of people served.

Home-to-school bus services, which are a statutory service that local authorities HAVE to provide where the distance is over 3 miles) dictate the size of vehicles that rural bus operators run, and cover their fixed costs. So if you stop using those vehicles for timetabled services in the middle of the day, you only save the marginal (ie extra) per-mile/per-hour running costs for the trips no longer made. And DRT then meets that middle-of-the-day demand by providing separate DRT vehicles, which will have a lower per-mile/per-hour costs but with those savings likely dwarfed by the extra set of fixed vehicle costs for the DRT fleet.

And unless you use the school bus drivers for the DRT vehicles, you are not going to save their wages for the full middle-of-the-day gap, unless the local labour market is so bad enough that you can find people to work for the same hourly rate but for fewer hours, and with four home-to-work journeys each day rather than two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a rural setting, DRT certainly isn't going to save any money without a massive cut in the numbers of people served.

In a rural setting, DRT does give you some advantages in terms of the area of coverage for the same cost. Let's say you've got one bus, and you want to give people in a wide but very rural area 2-3 hours over lunchtime in the local market town. This, if you're putting it between school runs, allows you about an hour to 90 minutes running time each way for your route.

You can basically do two things - one of them being to give a few places a service once a week, i.e. run different fixed routes each day - the classic very-rural type service.

The other one is to do it as DRT, so you offer a service daily to pre-booked passengers only anywhere within that fairly wide rural area (but stop taking more bookings when the bus would be full or adding another diversion would take you over your maximum journey time). This takes advantage of the fact that not everyone is going to want to go every day, so you can plan a different route each day depending on where the demand is, and if nobody books then you don't burn any diesel at all.

If anything, this is the sort of service where DRT really does win out, much more so than urban areas where a couple of slightly ciruitous hourly tendered "tertiary" routes may actually provide more value than having those two vehicles do a fairly sloppy point to point DRT.

 

[Man of Kent]

Tees Valley Flex DRT, £1m subsidy per year.
Annual no. of passengers 45,800
Subsidy per head - £21.83
Covid means the passenger figures are skewed, but even at double the number, it's still an expensive project.

(Figures from Tees Valley Combined Authority papers, and the Mayor's twitter feed.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone have figures as to how it compares with a more conventional service? That is, for what it delivers is it cheaper?

 

[py_megapixel]

ViaVan, who a couple of years ago I'd never heard of, seem to be acquiring themselves a nice little monopoly in this field, don't they!

 

[Bletchleyite]

ViaVan, who a couple of years ago I'd never heard of, seem to be acquiring themselves a nice little monopoly in this field, don't they!

I seem to recall that Mercedes have shares in them, so it may be a vehicle (!) for selling Vitos, which are the ideal size for it.

 

[Man of Kent]

Does anyone have figures as to how it compares with a more conventional service? That is, for what it delivers is it cheaper?

Many local authorities start getting twitchy at £5 per head. Above £10 is often a red flag. Borders quoted an average of £3.65 at the beginning of last year.

In 2019, Suffolk identified 23 services that were potentially for the chop. The range of the subsidy per head was published in some detail in the East Anglian Daily Times https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/suffolk...awal-of-sponsored-bus-service-subsidy-2593316

The full list of affected routes:

Service 90 - Ipswich-Hadleigh

Average single tickets per day - 19

Subsidy per single ticket - £6.62

Service 796 - Hadleigh-Manningtree Station

Average single tickets per day - 7

Subsidy per single ticket - £12.64

Service 202 - Ipswich-Shotley

Average single tickets per day - 39

Subsidy per single ticket - £5.06

Services M33 and M44 - Bury St Edmunds town circulars

Average single tickets per day - 8

Subsidy per single ticket - £7.43

Service 108 - Lowestoft-James Paget Hospital

Average single tickets per day - 18

Subsidy per single ticket - £5.93

Services 377 and 386 - Rattlesden-Bury St Edmunds (377) and Stowmarket-Bury St Edmunds (386)

Average single tickets per day - 54

Subsidy per single ticket - £5.20

Services 387 and 456 - Stowupland-Stowmarket (387) and Eye-Stowmarket (456)

Average single tickets per day - 24

Subsidy per single ticket - £8.79

Services 62 and 71 - Blaxhall-Wickham Market (62) and Sudbourne-Woodbridge (71)

Average single tickets per day - 18

Subsidy per single ticket - £14.82

Service 112 - Hadleigh-Sudbury

Average single tickets per day - 8

Subsidy per single ticket - £4.07

Service 532 - Laxfield-Beccles

Average single tickets per day - 39

Subsidy per single ticket - £5.19

Service 971 - Hadleigh-Colchester schools

Average single ticket per day - 50

Subsidy per single ticket - £1.27

Service 94A - Hadleigh-Ipswich

Average single tickets per day - 26

Subsidy per single ticket - £12.11

Service 87 - Stowmarket-Ipswich

Average single tickets per day - 66

Subsidy per single ticket - £2.06

Service 98 - Shotley Gate-Ipswich

Average single tickets per day - 22

Subsidy per single ticket - £6.99

Service 120 - Whatfield-Ipswich

Average single tickets per day - 20

Subsidy per single ticket - £2.69

Service 375 - Alpheton-Bury St Edmunds

Average single tickets per day - 50

Subsidy per single ticket - £7.74

Services 461 and 462 - Whatfield-Stowmarket

Average single tickets per day - 40

Subsidy per single ticket - £3.40

Service 482 - Diss-Framlingham

Average single tickets per journey - 33

Subsidy per single ticket - £5.45

 

[anthony263]

Been doing the G1 fflecsi service today and literally run off my feetvwith how busy it's been.

Only bit quiet was on lunch break and from 1600 tonight.

With restrictions ending I can see it getting busier again

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an update on the MK scheme it appears to be being run on a taxi (private hire) licence. Saw one today (which was a brand-new white Vauxhall Vivaro minibus, not a Merc, with an "MK Connect" magnetic sign) and it had taxi plates on. I didn't drive behind it for long enough to notice what company name was on the plate, unfortunately - it turned left, then stopped blocking a junction while the prospective passenger wandered all over the road (a problem MK had got rid of by installing bus stops on most of the hail and ride routes, many of which will now lie unused).

This raises a question for me - is it legal to charge separate fares on a private hire licence? I thought it wasn't, with that being the reason why Uber Pool does not operate in the UK?

 

[Llandudno]

Been doing the G1 fflecsi service today and literally run off my feetvwith how busy it's been.

Only bit quiet was on lunch break and from 1600 tonight.

With restrictions ending I can see it getting busier again

Promising, how many passengers do you carry in your, presumably 8 hour shift?

 

[Man of Kent]

As an update on the MK scheme it appears to be being run on a taxi (private hire) licence. Saw one today (which was a brand-new white Vauxhall Vivaro minibus, not a Merc, with an "MK Connect" magnetic sign) and it had taxi plates on. I didn't drive behind it for long enough to notice what company name was on the plate, unfortunately - it turned left, then stopped blocking a junction while the prospective passenger wandered all over the road (a problem MK had got rid of by installing bus stops on most of the hail and ride routes, many of which will now lie unused).

This raises a question for me - is it legal to charge separate fares on a private hire licence? I thought it wasn't, with that being the reason why Uber Pool does not operate in the UK?

There is a category of Operator Licence called a special restricted licence. Go Coach in Sevenoaks has obtained one to use Mercedes Vito vehicles on DRT in that area. From gov.uk:

Special restricted licence​

Special restricted licences are used to operate a licensed taxi on a local service. You can only apply for this licence if you’re a licensed taxi operator. A local service is one where:

• stops are no more than 24.15 kilometres (15 miles) apart
• at least one stop is within the area of the district council that issued your taxi or private hire vehicle (PHV) licence

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a category of Operator Licence called a special restricted licence. Go Coach in Sevenoaks has obtained one to use Mercedes Vito vehicles on DRT in that area. From gov.uk:

Special restricted licence​

Special restricted licences are used to operate a licensed taxi on a local service. You can only apply for this licence if you’re a licensed taxi operator. A local service is one where:

• stops are no more than 24.15 kilometres (15 miles) apart
• at least one stop is within the area of the district council that issued your taxi or private hire vehicle (PHV) licence

Cheers. Guess it must be that, then.

I assume no BSOG?

 

[PG]

Cheers. Guess it must be that, then.

I assume no BSOG?

I think any prospective operator of a DRT who were planning to run using a special restricted licence would be well advised to consult the DfT to ascertain eligibility for BSOG.

That said, my opinion is that they do qualify for BSOG after looking at the guidance.

• services using vehicles designed to carry eight people or less will qualify only if they satisfy all the conditions A to F and if the service is operated to a timetable

Unfortunately whoever was in charge of approving the guidance didn't do a brilliant job of proof reading it!

It appears that it has been reissued or amended at some point with the conditions numbered instead of lettered with there now being two number 1s and 8 conditions.​

Thus it is uncertain which conditions A to F in the quote above actually relate to.​

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the "and if the service is operated to a timetable" not fail it, as DRT isn't operated to a timetable by definition?

 

[PG]

Would the "and if the service is operated to a timetable" not fail it, as DRT isn't operated to a timetable by definition?

A timetable doesn't have to be the traditional list of places and times that most people are used to. It can be as vague as a list of boundary points within which the service will operate together with the times when it is available.

 

[anthony263]

Promising, how many passengers do you carry in your, presumably 8 hour shift?

40 over 9 hours

 

[Dai Corner]

40 over 9 hours

The single fare is £2 so even if every passenger paid that the takings wouldn't even cover your wages, I'd guess.

 

[PG]

The single fare is £2 so even if every passenger paid that the takings wouldn't even cover your wages, I'd guess.

TBF some subsidised local bus services would be lucky to see 40 passengers in 9 hours, hence the subsidy...

 

[Dai Corner]

TBF some subsidised local bus services would be lucky to see 40 passengers in 9 hours, hence the subsidy...

Fair comment.

It would be interesting to know what the ridership and takings where when it was a timetabled service.

 

[Llandudno]

TBF some subsidised local bus services would be lucky to see 40 passengers in 9 hours, hence the subsidy...

I guess 40 folk, in essence means 20 people travelling there and back..?

Probably be cheaper to give the 20 folk return taxi vouchers, especially if any of the 20 folk were travelling with a companion(s)...

Sorry not a fan of DRT, run a proper bus timetabled bus service, or give discounted taxi vouchers valid 24 hours a day for those in rural areas to book taxis via burgeoning gig economy

 

[edwin_m]

I guess 40 folk, in essence means 20 people travelling there and back..?

Probably be cheaper to give the 20 folk return taxi vouchers, especially if any of the 20 folk were travelling with a companion(s)...

Sorry not a fan of DRT, run a proper bus timetabled bus service, or give discounted taxi vouchers valid 24 hours a day for those in rural areas to book taxis via burgeoning gig economy

Problem with that is that all sorts of other people would take up the offer of cheap taxis and the scheme would rapidly use up its funding.

 

[Dai Corner]

I guess 40 folk, in essence means 20 people travelling there and back..?

Probably be cheaper to give the 20 folk return taxi vouchers, especially if any of the 20 folk were travelling with a companion(s)...

Sorry not a fan of DRT, run a proper bus timetabled bus service, or give discounted taxi vouchers valid 24 hours a day for those in rural areas to book taxis via burgeoning gig economy

The service in question is in an urban area (Cardiff).

 

[Llandudno]

The service in question is in an urban area (Cardiff).

Crikey, why on earth is a DRT running in an urban area?

Surely there must be some normal bus services available for these 20 people, even if it means changing buses en-route. Alternatively can’t these 20 people pay for their own taxi to the nearest bus stop, as unlikely to cost more than £3 if in an urban area.

 

[Dai Corner]

Crikey, why on earth is a DRT running in an urban area?

Surely there must be some normal bus services available for these 20 people, even if it means changing buses en-route. Alternatively can’t these 20 people pay for their own taxi to the nearest bus stop, as unlikely to cost more than £3 if in an urban area.

It's a Welsh Government idea. Fflecsi is being trialled in Cardiff, Newport, the Rhondda, Pembrokeshire, Conwy Valley, Prestatyn and Denbigh. In the south only Pembrokeshire is rural. Can't comment on the north.

Locations | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.fflecsi.wales

 

[anthony263]

It's carrying now more people as a fflecsi service than when it was a fixed timetable service. Most popular destinations are as follows.

Asda coryton
Llandaff railway station
Heath Hospital
Gabalfa estate

Word is getting around and it's been requested to expand the zone to Taffs well village abd railway station as there's residents there who have said its ideal because they got a bus link to the heath Hospital and Asda.

They like our C8 crosscity service because it gives them a service to thornhill including sainsbury's 1

 

[Man of Kent]

The single fare is £2 so even if every passenger paid that the takings wouldn't even cover your wages, I'd guess.

Absolutely. The cost of operations will more than likely be around the £300 per day mark, so this represents a subsidy of about £7.50 per passenger - 3.5 times what they are paying.

 

[Llandudno]

Absolutely. The cost of operations will more than likely be around the £300 per day mark, so this represents a subsidy of about £7.50 per passenger - 3.5 times what they are paying.

Would imagine they the average single fare is closer to £1 as most passengers will hold concessionary passes, so more likely £8.50 per passenger.

Unbelievable in an urban area

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know much about "fflecsi" - does it offer advance booking (so it's useful for timed stuff like work and appointments)? The absence of that is the main flaw in MK's new system.

Edit: it looks like it does - guaranteed arrival times (with the pickups being varied instead) and train connections are mentioned on the website. A much better model than what "Via" (ex-"ViaVan") is providing whichis more Uber like with no advance booking offered and the SLA applied to pickup time only, flaws which the Green Councillor responsible for the debacle repeatedly refuses to acknowledge.