Denton line possibilities

[Philip]

Do people think more could be done to upgrade the line between Stockport and Ashton Moss/Guide Bridge to mainline standard? The main advantage would be less congestion through Castlefield - because trains from the south could run through to Victoria.

What other potential is there from making this line an alternative mainline route and what scope is there for upgrade? Could linespeed be increased to 90mph for example? There are too many freight-only lines in this country, more should return to passenger service.

 

[D6130]

Do people think more could be done to upgrade the line between Stockport and Ashton Moss/Guide Bridge to mainline standard? The main advantage would be less congestion through Castlefield - because trains from the south could run through to Victoria.

What other potential is there from making this line an alternative mainline route and what scope is there for upgrade? Could linespeed be increased to 90mph for example? There are too many freight-only lines in this country, more should return to passenger service.

Perhaps the EMR Norwich-Liverpool service could be diverted via Victoria to reduce congestion on the Castlefield corridor?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the EMR Norwich-Liverpool service could be diverted via Victoria to reduce congestion on the Castlefield corridor?

This wouldn't be a terrible idea if the CLC was to become a more Merseyrail like operation (or Metrolink) but terminating it at Picc may be better.

I'd favour a half hourly Stockport-Vic stopping service once HS2 2B makes paths for it available.

 

[jfollows]

This topic comes up regularly here, but that's not a complaint, I think it's an excellent idea but there are a lot of people who either don't want to consider it or who have good reasons why it wouldn't work well.
However I disagree with the second point, I don't think there are enough freight-only lines, and the lack of such lines around Stockport compared with the ones which existed in the 1970s is telling - now the Chester-Altrincham line is constrained by having to cram freight trains along it, for example.

 

[The Planner]

Do people think more could be done to upgrade the line between Stockport and Ashton Moss/Guide Bridge to mainline standard? The main advantage would be less congestion through Castlefield - because trains from the south could run through to Victoria.

What other potential is there from making this line an alternative mainline route and what scope is there for upgrade? Could linespeed be increased to 90mph for example? There are too many freight-only lines in this country, more should return to passenger service.

Is there capacity at Victoria to deal with all these terminating trains or are they going somewhere else adding to crossing moves at Deal St and Ordsall Lane? What trains would it remove from Casltefield?Why does it need to be 90mph? Its 6 miles long with slow speed junctions at either end and in the middle. Apart from capacity issues, there is nothing to stop you using it now.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Has anyone considered that one thing that could make a bit of a difference would be to make sure the timetable between Edgeley Jn and Piccadilly is robust, and therefore overlaying a Greenbank to Stalybridge service? That way you aren't adding another DMU into the mix north of Slade Lane and taking up Piccadilly platform space, as well as hooking into Guide Bridge and Stalybridge and offering up connections?

At least then if I was travelling from a local station in south Manchester I could get to parts of east Manchester or the likes of Leeds and Huddersfield with some avoidance of Manchester and the Ordsall Chord, as well as giving some extra capacity to the Mid Cheshire?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

This topic comes up regularly here, but that's not a complaint . . . . .

I can't help thinking that before any serious thinking about re-opening this route to passenger trains, there needs to be serious thinking about what markets in Denton etc. would be served. How densely populated is the area through which this line runs and what public transport towards Stockport and central Manchester is currently provided?

 

[D6130]

I can't help thinking that before any serious thinking about re-opening this route to passenger trains, there needs to be serious thinking about what markets in Denton etc. would be served. How densely populated is the area through which this line runs and what public transport towards Stockport and central Manchester is currently provided?

Unless I am very much mistaken, I think the OP was talking about using the line for longer distance through services, rather than increasing the service to local stations. Although the area is fairly densely-populated, I would imagine that the main passenger flows are to/from Manchester, rather than Stockport or Stalybridge.

 

[cle]

There are a few ways it could be used:

- New local services (Buxton to Victoria for example, as it's unwired) - but could be Hope Valley, Stoke, Crewe or just 2tph Stockport using the bay. Good use of Victoria bays too - but could also thread through to a diesel location on the other side.

- Regional rerouting (e.g. the Norwich/Notts-Liverpool as mentioned) - unlock more frequencies on other routes, post-H2 Stockport will have more paths potentially, although these might be Crewe and Stoke 6 car electric locals.

- New Manchester bypass for regional services - e.g. Birmingham - Stoke - Stockport - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Leeds. Loads of possibilities here - could it run down to Crewe instead, or Cardiff even. Or via Uttoxeter to Derby.


Not assuming electrification here, or tons of spare paths - just routings - and as mentioned, a line speed upgrade to 50-60mph or so would be adequate for non-stop journeys.

 

[The Planner]

There are a few ways it could be used:

- New local services (Buxton to Victoria for example, as it's unwired) - but could be Hope Valley, Stoke, Crewe or just 2tph Stockport using the bay. Good use of Victoria bays too - but could also thread through to a diesel location on the other side.

- Regional rerouting (e.g. the Norwich/Notts-Liverpool as mentioned) - unlock more frequencies on other routes, post-H2 Stockport will have more paths potentially, although these might be Crewe and Stoke 6 car electric locals.

- New Manchester bypass for regional services - e.g. Birmingham - Stoke - Stockport - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Leeds. Loads of possibilities here - could it run down to Crewe instead, or Cardiff even. Or via Uttoxeter to Derby.


Not assuming electrification here, or tons of spare paths - just routings - and as mentioned, a line speed upgrade to 50-60mph or so would be adequate for non-stop journeys.

Means the EMR has an extended journey time and has to go Chat Moss causing more conflicts as I noted above. I don't see what improvement to Castlefield it creates. Why would you bypass Manchester, its where the volume and cash is.

 

[Philip]

Electrification could be included in the 'what ifs' for upgrades - and combined with a faster line speed perhaps there would be potential for re-routing some London and Birmingham trains into Victoria and possibly beyond, especially after HS2 is completed.

 

[cle]

Means the EMR has an extended journey time and has to go Chat Moss causing more conflicts as I noted above. I don't see what improvement to Castlefield it creates. Why would you bypass Manchester, its where the volume and cash is.

Providing new journeys, I'm not suggesting anything be removed from Manchester. Birmingham has Leeds services, but none to Huddersfield. That they skirt Manchester shouldn't be an issue, it's like Watford-Croydon. Leeds doesn't have Stoke or Crewe or Wales for that matter. As I said, just options on routing - this isn't a business case.

 

[The Planner]

Providing new journeys, I'm not suggesting anything be removed from Manchester. Birmingham has Leeds services, but none to Huddersfield. That they skirt Manchester shouldn't be an issue, it's like Watford-Croydon. Leeds doesn't have Stoke or Crewe or Wales for that matter. As I said, just options on routing - this isn't a business case.

Feels like solutions for problems that don't exist, and you don't need to do anything to the Denton line if someone wanted to propose any of it.

 

[nr758123]

I can't help thinking that before any serious thinking about re-opening this route to passenger trains, there needs to be serious thinking about what markets in Denton etc. would be served. How densely populated is the area through which this line runs and what public transport towards Stockport and central Manchester is currently provided?

There are two stations within little more than a mile of Reddish South - Heaton Chapel and Reddish North - both with a frequent service into Manchester. Denton station is in an uninhabited wasteland of motorway sliproads, remote from both residential areas and the town centre. It's hard to see what transport need a regular service to either would fulfil.

Do people think more could be done to upgrade the line between Stockport and Ashton Moss/Guide Bridge to mainline standard? The main advantage would be less congestion through Castlefield - because trains from the south could run through to Victoria.

Victoria has four heavily used through platforms, plus two bay platforms which are too short to be of much use. Ideas like this are merely shifting services from one congested location to another, with the added outcome of significantly increasing journey times.

 

[daodao]

Why would you bypass Manchester, its where the volume and cash is.

Exactly, which is why the line is only really useful for freight traffic and passenger train diversions. It only remained open for passenger traffic to provide a connection from Stockport and points further south to the Standedge line via Stalybridge until services on this line were re-routed to Manchester Piccadilly. There is minimal inherent local traffic demand, and it doesn't serve the larger towns to the east of Manchester (Ashton-under-Lyne and Hyde).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, which is why the line is only really useful for freight traffic and passenger train diversions. It only remained open for passenger traffic to provide a connection from Stockport and points further south to the Standedge line until services on this line were re-routed to Manchester Piccadilly. There is minimal inherent local traffic demand, and it doesn't serve the larger towns to the East of Manchester (Ashton-under-Lyne and Hyde).

Those services of course are now back at Victoria...

 

[daodao]

Those services of course are now back at Victoria...

Only some of them; there are still 2 tph from Huddersfield to Piccadilly routed via Guide Bridge, plus 1 tph from Huddersfield to Piccadilly via the Ordsall curve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only some of them; there are still 2 tph from Huddersfield to Piccadilly routed via Guide Bridge, plus 1 tph from Huddersfield to Piccadilly via the Ordsall curve.

Though e.g. the main Liverpool service is now from Vic. So more reason to want to go there. Also usage is much higher than it was back then.

 

[daodao]

Though e.g. the main Liverpool service is now from Vic. So more reason to want to go there. Also usage is much higher than it was back then.

There is now only 1 tph from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool. The other fast 1 tph is the East Midlands service calling at Stockport/Piccadilly/Oxford Road, so there is no need for a train service from Stockport to Victoria via Denton. That route was only used by the former through carriages from London Euston to Colne via Bolton/Blackburn.

 

[Grimsby town]

Personally I think a frequent tram service would be a better idea but would obviously a lot more expensive than running a heavy rail service. If a heavy rail service to Victoria is favoured, it should include a station next to Ashton West Metrolink stop. The bus journey time between Ashton and Stockport is something like 50 mins. It's just as quick to go into Manchester City Centre and back out. Thameside has pretty awful rail connectivity particularly if you want to travel to the Midlands / South

 

[johnnychips]

Personally I think a frequent tram service would be a better idea but would obviously a lot more expensive than running a heavy rail service. If a heavy rail service to Victoria is favoured, it should include a station next to Ashton West Metrolink stop. The bus journey time between Ashton and Stockport is something like 50 mins. It's just as quick to go into Manchester City Centre and back out. Thameside has pretty awful rail connectivity particularly if you want to travel to the Midlands / South

It is Tameside.

 

[Grimsby town]

It is Tameside.

A typo. I realised once I'd posted I'd spelt it wrong but didn't think it was worth editing because everbody gets what I mean

 

[javelin]

This line is one of the successful Restoring Your Railway bids, so there may be some movement on it. We're probably looking at some kind of local service though if it goes ahead rather than mainline.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This line is one of the successful Restoring Your Railway bids, so there may be some movement on it. We're probably looking at some kind of local service though if it goes ahead rather than mainline.

The likely scenario being a sadly pretty rubbish Stockport bay platform - Stalybridge bay platform one, every hour, which they can then reduce to 1tp2h and then back to nothing due to “lack of demand”.

 

[StretfordEnd96]

The likely scenario being a sadly pretty rubbish Stockport bay platform - Stalybridge bay platform one, every hour, which they can then reduce to 1tp2h and then back to nothing due to “lack of demand”.

That's why it's absolutely vitally important to do the market research before hand. It sounds, to me, like the best idea would be to figure out if there is 'demand' before they ever put a passenger service back on the line - rather than wait until this has happened and the huge kicking up a stink that would incur if it was then withdrawn once again due to the lack of demand!

My take - it'd be best suited as a Metrolink line IMO probably connecting to the Ashton Line around Ashton Moss but even then I question the real demand for it. And this would be the most expensive option of course. For such a small line it just won't be viable IMO.

Do people think more could be done to upgrade the line between Stockport and Ashton Moss/Guide Bridge to mainline standard? The main advantage would be less congestion through Castlefield - because trains from the south could run through to Victoria.

What other potential is there from making this line an alternative mainline route and what scope is there for upgrade? Could linespeed be increased to 90mph for example? There are too many freight-only lines in this country, more should return to passenger service.

As for the first point I just think a train coming up in from Stockport/Southwards and then using the Denton line to swing around Ashton Moss and back into Victoria, it's just all too long winded. Solves capacity issues for sure but IMO it's just too long.

As for the second point. While I agree there are a large amount of freight only lines around the country, IMO a lot of them including this one, in this day and age the purpose I feel is justified.

It's in a fine location to allow freight movement from Stockport southwards to get to Yorkshire and vice versa without the need of messing about in Manchester. But from a passenger perspective in this day and age it just doesn't sit any useful purpose in that respect away from possible local demand at Reddish and Denton. Of course historically in years gone by it has had a very important history of passenger services but those days are gone, unfortunately.

 

[zwk500]

There are too many freight-only lines in this country, more should return to passenger service.

I disagree with this premise. Freight-only lines are very useful helping the network to run efficiently and reliably. Having lines of very little traffic that only need to be maintained for 50 or 60mph gives room to get services away from densely populated cities and their congested commuter lines or off the high-speed express lines at a cost-effective rate.

Fundamentally, for the Denton line, until you sort out the junction and capacity issues at the Stockport end there's little point in doing anything to the line itself. If one was determined to run a service of some sort, then letting metrolink run trams over it while keeping the line available to NR freight would probably be the most reasonable outcome.

 

[MarkyT]

Fundamentally, for the Denton line, until you sort out the junction and capacity issues at the Stockport end there's little point in doing anything to the line itself. If one was determined to run a service of some sort, then letting metrolink run trams over it while keeping the line available to NR freight would probably be the most reasonable outcome.

Agree completely. This would be a good candidate for tram-trains. From Denton, they could dive off onto the streets of Stockport before reaching the Junction, and street running capabilty would also give some alternatives at the Aston end to serve the main tram/bus/rail station complex and possibly cross the town to head north to Oldham and Rochdale.

 

[MisterSheeps]

I was living in Buxton, commuting to Salford Crescent around 1999, and, due to Slade Lane Jc being remodelled, the Buxton - Piccadilly service was sent this way (express) to Victoria. It took maybe 15 minutes longer (Stockport - Manchester), was completely packed, many pax getting of at Stockport. I feel there is a demand for NE to SE Greater Manchester journeys this line could provide. Obvious point is to try it as an experimental service (a la 'Speller'), add some Stalybridge - Greenbank, see how well used they are. If it reduces congestion at Piccadilly it can only be a good thing, because the transfer to P13 & 14 is a complete pain, as is transfer by metrolink

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I disagree with this premise. Freight-only lines are very useful helping the network to run efficiently and reliably. Having lines of very little traffic that only need to be maintained for 50 or 60mph gives room to get services away from densely populated cities and their congested commuter lines or off the high-speed express lines at a cost-effective rate.

Fundamentally, for the Denton line, until you sort out the junction and capacity issues at the Stockport end there's little point in doing anything to the line itself. If one was determined to run a service of some sort, then letting metrolink run trams over it while keeping the line available to NR freight would probably be the most reasonable outcome.

Good reply (as ever) - freight lines often act as handy regulating / temporary storing points for freight before accessing much busier routes - (thinking of Camden Road towards Primrose Hill)