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Deployment of 331s: What services are likely?

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507021

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What diagrams will the 331's be used on and how many coaches will they have?

I'm not entirely certain, but I think they will be deployed as follows:

3 car:
Leeds-Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton.
Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-on-Trent.

4 car:
Manchester Piccadilly-Alderley Edge.
Manchester Piccadilly-Blackpool North.
Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.
Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Macclesfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport.
 

47802

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I'm not entirely certain, but I think they will be deployed as follows:

3 car:
Leeds-Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton.
Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-on-Trent.

4 car:
Manchester Piccadilly-Alderley Edge.
Manchester Piccadilly-Blackpool North.
Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.
Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Macclesfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport.

Remember there are more 3 car units than 4 car, the Blackpool axis trains are likely to be 3 car doubled up to 6 car at peak time, and I believe will be mainly Blackpool-Manchester Airport, and Blackpool-Macclesfield.
 
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D365

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They might need to extend the platforms at flowery field and godley on the glossop/Hadfield if the trains are going four car.

No idea of the passenger numbers at those stations but the Class 331s are presumably fitted with/capable of SDO (selective door opening).
 

Allwinter_Kit

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I'm not entirely certain, but I think they will be deployed as follows:

3 car:
Leeds-Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton.
Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-on-Trent.

4 car:
Manchester Piccadilly-Alderley Edge.
Manchester Piccadilly-Blackpool North.
Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.
Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Macclesfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport.

Regarding Skipton, I read somewhere (and it might well be erroneous) that it'll be 2 3 car 331s permanently together on the Skipton - Leeds diagrams.

This seems odd though, as presumably the other diagrams would remain 333s and you would lose the interoperability of sets, so that (for example) the train from Skipton that arrives at Leeds 07:24 could no longer form the following outbound service to Bradford FS (from where I think it then goes to Ilkley and thence back to Leeds to form a Skipton service...)

I'll try and remember where I read that so I can provide something more concrete than 'I seem to recall' but thought I'd throw it out here anyway. Could be bilge.
 

Bantamzen

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Regarding Skipton, I read somewhere (and it might well be erroneous) that it'll be 2 3 car 331s permanently together on the Skipton - Leeds diagrams.

This seems odd though, as presumably the other diagrams would remain 333s and you would lose the interoperability of sets, so that (for example) the train from Skipton that arrives at Leeds 07:24 could no longer form the following outbound service to Bradford FS (from where I think it then goes to Ilkley and thence back to Leeds to form a Skipton service...)

I'll try and remember where I read that so I can provide something more concrete than 'I seem to recall' but thought I'd throw it out here anyway. Could be bilge.

Some of the peak Leeds-Skiptons will see 2x3 331s operating at the very least, but as you say this then causes issues when they get back to Leeds to form Ilkley or Bradford services. I suppose there would always be the option of splitting and joining at Leeds as needed, but it may also be the case that the paths have to be recast to seperate 6 car workings from the rest of the triangle diagrams. Could be interesting, especially as at least 1 VTEC service every two hours also needs pathing to Bradford FS.

Of course there is still the issue of 6 car operating at most platforms, with most not being long enough yet, and not forgetting that 3 car 331s won't be suitable for all of the other services as a fair few can still easy fill a 333, so they will have to be worked in as required. I feel sorry for the planners on this one.
 

Halish Railway

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I'm not entirely certain, but I think they will be deployed as follows:

3 car:
Leeds-Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton.
Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-on-Trent.

4 car:
Manchester Piccadilly-Alderley Edge.
Manchester Piccadilly-Blackpool North.
Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.
Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Macclesfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport.
The Alderley Edge Shuttle Will go to Wigan and be formed of a 769. I don't think that there are enough 4 car units to do the rest of the rest of the above. Residents of Congleton will not be happy to see the reduction in the amount of seats.
 

Allwinter_Kit

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Some of the peak Leeds-Skiptons will see 2x3 331s operating at the very least, but as you say this then causes issues when they get back to Leeds to form Ilkley or Bradford services. I suppose there would always be the option of splitting and joining at Leeds as needed, but it may also be the case that the paths have to be recast to seperate 6 car workings from the rest of the triangle diagrams. Could be interesting, especially as at least 1 VTEC service every two hours also needs pathing to Bradford FS.

Of course there is still the issue of 6 car operating at most platforms, with most not being long enough yet, and not forgetting that 3 car 331s won't be suitable for all of the other services as a fair few can still easy fill a 333, so they will have to be worked in as required. I feel sorry for the planners on this one.

Yes, It's quite a knotty one. The triangle pathing was a very neat solution for a long time, but I fear demand has outstripped capacity, as Halish said:

Also even in off peak hours the Leeds to Skipton trains are rammed.

I know that Steeton and other short platforms are scheduled for lengthening on the Airedale line as part of the franchise agreement, but I assume that given the lack of any actual concrete plans (or indeed, concrete itself!) that the trains might now beat the stations into service...

Although given how I don't think Shipley can be sensibly (read cheaply) lengthened I assume SDO might just be the solution Instead?

Still doesn't solve the capacity issue on the Wharfedale line though, unless some of the 4-car sets were to be used too... unless the 333s freed up from the Skipton route were then used to increase capacity on Wharfedale, although from what I know of the situation (happy to be wrong) the Aire-Wharfe lines are pretty much at full capacity now anyway in terms of paths?

Regardless; don't envy Northern trying to sort it, even though it really does need doing!
 

Halish Railway

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Yes, It's quite a knotty one. The triangle pathing was a very neat solution for a long time, but I fear demand has outstripped capacity, as Halish said:



I know that Steeton and other short platforms are scheduled for lengthening on the Airedale line as part of the franchise agreement, but I assume that given the lack of any actual concrete plans (or indeed, concrete itself!) that the trains might now beat the stations into service...

Although given how I don't think Shipley can be sensibly (read cheaply) lengthened I assume SDO might just be the solution Instead?

Still doesn't solve the capacity issue of Airedale itself though, unless some of the 4-car sets were to be used too... unless the 333s freed up from the Skipton route were then used to increase capacity on Wharfedale, although from what I know of the situation (happy to be wrong) the Aire-Wharfe lines are pretty much at full capacity now anyway in terms of paths?

Regardless; don't envy Northern trying to sort it, even though it really does need doing!
The sensible solution would be to scrap the triangle pathing and retime the services so there is less end of line dwells

The Airedale line timetable is quite patchy in the evening where there is only an additional Dusty Bin service (17:41), a 150 (16:45) and a 158 (18:06)

There should be one at 17:10ish to take the strain off the infamous 17:26.

EDIT: The Trains mentioned above are adding to the crowded 16:26, 16:56, 17:26, 17:56 and 18:26.
 
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lejog

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Still doesn't solve the capacity issue on the Wharfedale line though, unless some of the 4-car sets were to be used too... unless the 333s freed up from the Skipton route were then used to increase capacity on Wharfedale, although from what I know of the situation (happy to be wrong) the Aire-Wharfe lines are pretty much at full capacity now anyway in terms of paths?

Remember the capacity of the Bradford and Ilkley lines is to be increased by 20% with no extra paths simply by removing some seats from the 333s, increasing overall capacity of each train from 467 to 558.
 

Allwinter_Kit

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Remember the capacity of the Bradford and Ilkley lines is to be increased by 20% with no extra paths simply by removing some seats from the 333s, increasing overall capacity of each train from 467 to 558.

True. And whilst it is an improvement in sheer numbers transported, removing seats to boost the number of people standing is hardly a great incentive to get people to travel by train rather than road say, nor is it likely to placate people who board the 'new service pattern' and find either that they are still standing or that they chose not to drive but instead have just been shoehorned in.

It's an immeidate fix, but It's not really a long term solution, if that makes sense?
 
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D365

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Remember the capacity of the Bradford and Ilkley lines is to be increased by 20% with no extra paths simply by removing some seats from the 333s, increasing overall capacity of each train from 467 to 558.

Shh, you'd better keep quiet about that...
 

notlob.divad

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I'm not entirely certain, but I think they will be deployed as follows:

3 car:
Leeds-Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton.
Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-on-Trent.

4 car:
Manchester Piccadilly-Alderley Edge.
Manchester Piccadilly-Blackpool North.
Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.
Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Macclesfield.
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport.

Some of those services won't exist by the time the trains come into operation, and some will be operated by 319s / 319 Flexs.

My understanding was that foir the 331s 3 car Units would be East of the Pennines and 4 car units West.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Yes, It's quite a knotty one. The triangle pathing was a very neat solution for a long time, but I fear demand has outstripped capacity, as Halish said:



I know that Steeton and other short platforms are scheduled for lengthening on the Airedale line as part of the franchise agreement, but I assume that given the lack of any actual concrete plans (or indeed, concrete itself!) that the trains might now beat the stations into service...

Although given how I don't think Shipley can be sensibly (read cheaply) lengthened I assume SDO might just be the solution Instead?

Still doesn't solve the capacity issue on the Wharfedale line though, unless some of the 4-car sets were to be used too... unless the 333s freed up from the Skipton route were then used to increase capacity on Wharfedale, although from what I know of the situation (happy to be wrong) the Aire-Wharfe lines are pretty much at full capacity now anyway in terms of paths?

Regardless; don't envy Northern trying to sort it, even though it really does need doing!
Shipley CAN be lengthened, but 2 of the 3 'inner' platforms (2 and 5) can only be made 6-car before you'd have to start doing some serious realignment. The 3rd inner platform is already long enough for a Mk4 set, so not a problem. Platform 2 is the problem, being on the busiest arm of the triangle from Leeds to Skipton. If that service goes 6-car all day, the diagrams will have to be rewritten but that's happened before (they were tweaked when the electrics started) and the sky didn't fall in. It'll be reyt, as we say round here!
 

47802

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Some of those services won't exist by the time the trains come into operation, and some will be operated by 319s / 319 Flexs.

My understanding was that foir the 331s 3 car Units would be East of the Pennines and 4 car units West.

I don't think, you do realise there are only 12 x 4 car 3 cars will be both sides.
 

lejog

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Some of those services won't exist by the time the trains come into operation, and some will be operated by 319s / 319 Flexs.

My understanding was that foir the 331s 3 car Units would be East of the Pennines and 4 car units West.

But there are 31 3 car and only 12 4 car 331s being delivered?
 

Halish Railway

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Shh, you'd better keep quiet about that...
At least you don't use the 07:48 Ilkley to Bradford and the 16:16 Bradford to Ilkley. It's going to be a disaster with 3 schools having pupils that go on these routes (me being in that category) the 07:48 in particular where they have been putting a Dusty Bin on which is rammed at Baildon.
 

Bantamzen

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The sensible solution would be to scrap the triangle pathing and retime the services so there is less end of line dwells

The Airedale line timetable is quite patchy in the evening where there is only an additional Dusty Bin service (17:41), a 150 (16:45) and a 158 (18:06)

There should be one at 17:10ish to take the strain off the infamous 17:26.

EDIT: The Trains mentioned above are adding to the crowded 16:26, 16:56, 17:26, 17:56 and 18:26.

At the very least these evening peaks will need running as 2x3, but frankly for much of the day every day 6 cars wouldn’t go amiss.

Remember the capacity of the Bradford and Ilkley lines is to be increased by 20% with no extra paths simply by removing some seats from the 333s, increasing overall capacity of each train from 467 to 558.

The problem with this is that there seems to be quite a difference in how morning and evening commutes go. In the mornings, especially on the Wharfe services many people ignore the centre seats in favour of standing. However in the evenings more people seem more determined to sit on their way home, so don’t be surprised to see future headlines talking about the reduction in capacity in the evenings!!

Personally I’m not keen, if the existing seats were replaced by (tin hat on) ironing boards more people might be inclined to sit rather than stand if a tad more leg room was available. Given people’s reluctance to stand down corridors rather than in vestibules, I’m expecting fun and games with the extra standing room. And that’s before the bikes, suitcases, shopping come into play.

Shipley CAN be lengthened, but 2 of the 3 'inner' platforms (2 and 5) can only be made 6-car before you'd have to start doing some serious realignment. The 3rd inner platform is already long enough for a Mk4 set, so not a problem. Platform 2 is the problem, being on the busiest arm of the triangle from Leeds to Skipton. If that service goes 6-car all day, the diagrams will have to be rewritten but that's happened before (they were tweaked when the electrics started) and the sky didn't fall in. It'll be reyt, as we say round here!

Not only is P2 a problem for lengthening, think of the guards who would have to spend even longer checking the length of a 6-car train before releasing the doors. It does need doing however, as do the others. I’m slightly surprised that there has been no talk of doing P4 though in time for the extra VTECs, it would be by far the easiest and would prevent any future conflicts working services both ways on P3.

At least you don't use the 07:48 Ilkley to Bradford and the 16:16 Bradford to Ilkley. It's going to be a disaster with 3 schools having pupils that go on these routes (me being in that category) the 07:48 in particular where they have been putting a Dusty Bin on which is rammed at Baildon.

To be fair, if the school kids who used these services didn’t spread themselves quite so far and wide, and stopped constant roaming up and down the train 3 cars would probably just about suffice. However as the other services, including the Bradford-Skiptons are far more populated it would mean separating out the Bradford-Ilkley from the rest of the services. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised to see the bulk of the 331 services sticking to the Leeds-Skipton / Ilkley services with the 333s being concentrated more on the remaining Bradford runs, possibly switching to 1x331s later in the evenings / Sundays etc?
 

xotGD

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A pity that VTEC aren't extending any extra services to Skipton. One in front of the 17:26 calling at Keighley and Skipton only would be a godsend.

The 18:06 (or its successor service) could do with being a 3-car as far as Skipton (Add a 153 that could then be detached?)
 

Tractor37

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The sensible solution would be to scrap the triangle pathing and retime the services so there is less end of line dwells

The Airedale line timetable is quite patchy in the evening where there is only an additional Dusty Bin service (17:41), a 150 (16:45) and a 158 (18:06)

There should be one at 17:10ish to take the strain off the infamous 17:26.

EDIT: The Trains mentioned above are adding to the crowded 16:26, 16:56, 17:26, 17:56 and 18:26.

Reduce end of line dwell times. Currently Skipton is 7 minutes from Leeds, 12 from Bradford. Ilkley from Bradford 5 minutes, Leeds approx 8. Bradford approx per train. Drivers on arrival at terminating stations just about have enough time to set up the cab correctly they are leaving, walk 100 metres to the other end and set the cab up - lights, destinations, data recorder if appropriate and GSMR. I suppose we could always be issued with Roller Skates if you want dwell times to be reduced further. Either that or trains to run late throughout a trip around the triangle. 5 minutes is the bear minimum all this can be done in and that's walking at a brisk pace down the platform.
 

Halish Railway

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A pity that VTEC aren't extending any extra services to Skipton. One in front of the 17:26 calling at Keighley and Skipton only would be a godsend.

The 18:06 (or its successor service) could do with being a 3-car as far as Skipton (Add a 153 that could then be detached?)
In ideal world it would be a 4-Coach 158. Remember that the 153's will be gone by 2020.

A fast train at around 17:15 would be good.
 

Allwinter_Kit

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In ideal world it would be a 4-Coach 158. Remember that the 153's will be gone by 2020.

A fast train at around 17:15 would be good.

I was quite a fan of the old NR scheme (from the Yorkshire RUS - late 00s?) to put in a turnback at Keighley and run stoppers that far and then have Skipton trains run as semi-fasts from Keighley onward. Not sure what killed it off but I imagine a lack of paths to maintain decent service frequency.

Anyway, looking at the hordes trying to get on the 16:56 this evening the new 331s can't come soon enough!
 

Bantamzen

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In ideal world it would be a 4-Coach 158. Remember that the 153's will be gone by 2020.

A fast train at around 17:15 would be good.

The problem is that you would have to shoehorn it in between:

16:56 Skipton
17:02 Ilkley
17:09 Bradford FS
17:16 Ilkley
17:26 Skipton

With the 17:09 stopping at Kirkstall and Apperley Bridge there is precious little room left for another fast to Skipton.
 

superkev

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No sign of any platform extensions anywhere yet which will be presumably be required at a few locations for longer trains.
K
 

superkev

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The problem is that you would have to shoehorn it in between:

16:56 Skipton
17:02 Ilkley
17:09 Bradford FS
17:16 Ilkley
17:26 Skipton

With the 17:09 stopping at Kirkstall and Apperley Bridge there is precious little room left for another fast to Skipton.
Wouldn't that 4 track railway that used to be between Leeds and Shipley be useful now. Most of the trackbed still exists.
K
 

Allwinter_Kit

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Wouldn't that 4 track railway that used to be between Leeds and Shipley be useful now. Most of the trackbed still exists.
K

Except that they very carefully built Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge (and access thereto) all over said trackbed.

Actually, on a related note, I might be wrong but aren't there single track sections also on the Leeds - Ilkley and Ilkley - Bradford sections? Means that the new trains are the only way to boost capacity, although it seems that they may just be on the Airedale run. Are their plans to cascade the 333s outside the triangle (say, Doncaster?) do we know? Or are they going to be staying to boost seat numbers on the other bits of the Aire-Wharfe lines?

Indeed, are the new 331s going anywhere east of the Pennines aside from the Skipton-Leeds run (and potential associated related workings on the Triangle?)
 
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