Derailment at Carstairs 18/02/2018

[trickyvegas]

I was due on the 938 Glasgow - Euston service on my way to Stalybridge. Managed to get a Scotrail service to Edinburgh at 9am and connected with the 10am Kings Cross service, 15 minute change at York for Liverpool train and only 25 minutes later than my original arrival with a seat all the way so can't grumble.

 

[Class 170101]

That's today's situation of course, and I'm not sure 390s are passed on that route.
Sometime later this year the wired route via Falkirk Grahamston will come into service, and VT has certainly routed Voyager ECS this way when the Motherwell route was closed.

I think VT have actually run Voyagers in service between Edinburgh and Carlisle via Falkirk Grahamston, Coatbridge Central and Motherwell albeit not very often.

 

[Class 170101]

unless there is engineering works on the GSW Virgin will run Voyagers down it to Carlisle to keep some sort of service running. TPE could run 185s down it also but their drivers don't sign the route so would require ScotRail drivers from Ayr or Dumfries to route conduct them.

I thought TPE hired in Freightliner drivers for north of Preston or Carlisle to Scotland not having any bases up there (even when First ran Scotrail!!!).

 

[randyrippley]

Just shows that the 1970's plan to electrify the GSW as a relief to the WCML should have been carried through

 

[driver9000]

I thought TPE hired in Freightliner drivers for north of Preston or Carlisle to Scotland not having any bases up there (even when First ran Scotrail!!!).

Freightliner Drivers crew the Glasgow services to and from Carlisle as well as the early/late Edinburgh services that stable on Craigentinny. The Conductors are all in house based at Glasgow Central but don't sign the GSW.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this all fixed now?

 

[Mag_seven]

Is this all fixed now?

According to NRE it is:

Incident created
18/02/2018 05:59
Route affected
DownloadMapof route afected

Virgin Trains between London Euston / Birmingham New Street and Glasgow Central


Train operator affected
Virgin Trains;
Description
Trains are now able to run normally between Carstairs and Glasgow Central, following a derailed train near Carstairs.

 

[47802]

My knowledge of routes in the area is far too rudimentary to argue about the pros and cons of the Hyndland Loop, etc above. But there is, of course (as most will know in here) a perfectly acceptable alternative route via Kilmarnock and Dumfries just sitting there, virtually unused (at least south of Kilmarnock) on a Sunday.
In the bad days of BR, nobody would have dreamt of hiring in buses. Crews and stock would have been sourced, and trains sent via the G&SW. Maybe not every service, but enough would have been sorted out to keep the punters sort of happy. Today, it seems the first default option was buses.
This could still be done - but whoever Virgin is these days decide not to train crews etc to enable this sort of effort to ge in in emergency. Same with the S&C - they simply don't want to be bothered with preparing to use alternative routes.
This is, ultimatley, the fault of the regulator, who conspires with the TOC for short-term, cheaper if you are lucky, solutions.

Ah! Should have looked at RTT before opening my big keyboard

I see they did manage to extend quite a few Scotrail services today on the G&SW. Congratulations to the operators. I take it back.

I wouldn't take it back when the West Coast was shut for much of Thursday between Lancaster and Carnforth as far as I am aware nothing went via the S&C it was buses as usual. No doubt the excuse being that its too difficult now the Voyagers are Interwoven with Birmingham Euston services, which does beg the question why Virgin have so many Voyagers these days when clearly many could be replaced by EMU's ceartainly at the next franchise change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to NRE it is:

Ta

I wouldn't take it back when the West Coast was shut for much of Thursday between Lancaster and Carnforth as far as I am aware nothing went via the S&C it was buses as usual. No doubt the excuse being that its too difficult now the Voyagers are Interwoven with Birmingham Euston services, which does beg the question why Virgin have so many Voyagers these days when clearly many could be replaced by EMU's ceartainly at the next franchise change.

They probably will be. I think they now really just have them simply because they have them, i.e. the continuing jump from management contract to management contract doesn't really allow for the procurement of new stock to replace them.

The problem with running up the S&C (or the Chiltern line) is that it's slow. So you can run one train that way, but then you're cancelling the one going back the other way, and it's hard to get things back in place once the problem is fixed. So it's easier just to terminate short and hire in the coaches, and probably in many cases no slower, nor is a decent road coach appreciably less comfortable than a Voyager - they (road coaches) are much better than they used to be.

 

[47802]

Ta



They probably will be. I think they now really just have them simply because they have them, i.e. the continuing jump from management contract to management contract doesn't really allow for the procurement of new stock to replace them.

The problem with running up the S&C (or the Chiltern line) is that it's slow. So you can run one train that way, but then you're cancelling the one going back the other way, and it's hard to get things back in place once the problem is fixed. So it's easier just to terminate short and hire in the coaches, and probably in many cases no slower, nor is a decent road coach appreciably less comfortable than a Voyager - they (road coaches) are much better than they used to be.

Well no the S&C isn't particularly fast but it offers a through train journey to passengers on a Train which is what people are paying for, potentially you can go by coach and it may be a lot cheaper, and supposedly the whole point of WC keeping so many Voyagers was that they could be used on diversions, otherwise when the last batch of 390's were ordered they could have ordered more and probably got rid of half the Voyager fleet.

 

[PHILIPE]

Approx 3 years ago, VTWC decided that Preston drivers would no longer have refresher days over the S&C and also abandoned any late night diversions or ECS workings over routes other than the norm which were there for route retention purposes. As 47802 said, the S&C isn't particularly fast but I believe that passengers would prefer this than having to alight from a train at Preston/Lancaster, get onto a bus and then go through the reverse process at Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Approx 3 years ago, VTWC decided that Preston drivers would no longer have refresher days over the S&C and also abandoned any late night diversions or ECS workings over routes other than the norm which were there for route retention purposes. As 47802 said, the S&C isn't particularly fast but I believe that passengers would prefer this than having to alight from a train at Preston/Lancaster, get onto a bus and then go through the reverse process at Carlisle.

One thing about coaches is that they are quite small. If you offered people a direct coach from Preston to Edinburgh they might not have quite the same view. So rather than sending say 6 coaches from Preston all stops to Carlisle, think about where people are actually going (you could probably get a reasonable idea by looking at the bookings data for a particular train a few days beforehand then weight it towards shorter journeys where advance booking is less likely).

Take a look at the 0200 replacement bus "fleet" from Euston on a Saturday night/Sunday morning and how that is done.

 

[furnessvale]

Approx 3 years ago, VTWC decided that Preston drivers would no longer have refresher days over the S&C and also abandoned any late night diversions or ECS workings over routes other than the norm which were there for route retention purposes. As 47802 said, the S&C isn't particularly fast but I believe that passengers would prefer this than having to alight from a train at Preston/Lancaster, get onto a bus and then go through the reverse process at Carlisle.

I have written elsewhere that consideration should be given to not giving compensation to TOCs who do not avail themselves of diversionary routes on offer, preferring instead to hire in buses, possibly to increase their profits..

 

[Carlisle]

unless there is engineering works on the GSW Virgin will run Voyagers down it to Carlisle to keep some sort of service running. TPE could run 185s down it also but their drivers don't sign the route .

Are 185s route cleared for the GSW as I’ve not heard of them diverting that way before or using the S&C

 

[Crossover]

Are 185s route cleared for the GSW as I’ve not heard of them diverting that way before or using the S&C

It is probably a fairly moot point as booked traction is 350 for all but a small handful of services. There are barely enough 185's to run the other services so they probably wouldn't have them on-hand anyway to use them to divert via the GSW

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well no the S&C isn't particularly fast but it offers a through train journey to passengers on a Train which is what people are paying for, potentially you can go by coach and it may be a lot cheaper, and supposedly the whole point of WC keeping so many Voyagers was that they could be used on diversions, otherwise when the last batch of 390's were ordered they could have ordered more and probably got rid of half the Voyager fleet.

VT were never given the scope to get more 390s.
DfT bought the 104 vehicles for the 2012 upgrade, 4 complete 390s and 31x2-car extensions.
There may not even be an opportunity to buy more.
The Voyagers are also stuck where they are until the next WCP/XC franchise bids.
DfT just wants the premiums, even more so with VTEC in meltdown.

 

[92002]

Any drags via Dumfries?

Some wise man decided to base the Thunderbirds at Carlisle. So Voyager it was via Dumfries. Lasted till the close of service.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Just shows that the 1970's plan to electrify the GSW as a relief to the WCML should have been carried through

What plan, please? I can't remember any.
True, when the wires stopped at Weaver Jcn, there was one Euston - Glasgow routed via Dumfries each day (before the regular diversions for electrification work on the Caledonian route went that way). But that hardly constitutes a serious attempt to source revenues - and might have been for route retention as much as anything. (Does anyone know?)

Otherwise, what I remember is BR began to run down the GSW immediately after the wires were live through Carstairs, so I find it difficult to believe any such plan existed. I think the GSW south of Kilmarnock was probably very lucky to survive.

 

[Class 170101]

Something to bear in mind is that Road vehicle may not be available at short notice and come to that maybe the appropriate trains as well. However it is in the gift of the train operator to find an appropriate train unlike finding a road vehicle which is the gift of the bus or coach operators.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I wouldn't take it back when the West Coast was shut for much of Thursday between Lancaster and Carnforth as far as I am aware nothing went via the S&C it was buses as usual. No doubt the excuse being that its too difficult now the Voyagers are Interwoven with Birmingham Euston services, which does beg the question why Virgin have so many Voyagers these days when clearly many could be replaced by EMU's ceartainly at the next franchise change.

Actually, rather than jump in to defend my position, I decided to wait for someone else. Thank you

 

[70014IronDuke]

I have written elsewhere that consideration should be given to not giving compensation to TOCs who do not avail themselves of diversionary routes on offer, preferring instead to hire in buses, possibly to increase their profits..

Agree with all the above - except delete the word 'consideration'. Just do it. 50% discount for all mileage by bus instead of train.
Might make the likes of Virgin West Coast remember they are supposed to be a train operator.

 

[6Gman]

Pendolinos are not route cleared for the Basin, or for Coatbridge Sunnyside to Newbridge Jn via Bathgate. That's before you consider Virgin West Coast's requirement that drivers who are route conducting must sign the traction they are conducting on...

Good job we didn't have that rule when I was doing charter trains! And if the conductor signs the traction why doesn't he (or she) do the lot?

 

[6Gman]

Might make the likes of Virgin West Coast remember they are supposed to be a train operator.

I thought they were a Car Park operator primarily?

 

[randyrippley]

What plan, please? I can't remember any.
True, when the wires stopped at Weaver Jcn, there was one Euston - Glasgow routed via Dumfries each day (before the regular diversions for electrification work on the Caledonian route went that way). But that hardly constitutes a serious attempt to source revenues - and might have been for route retention as much as anything. (Does anyone know?)

Otherwise, what I remember is BR began to run down the GSW immediately after the wires were live through Carstairs, so I find it difficult to believe any such plan existed. I think the GSW south of Kilmarnock was probably very lucky to survive.

I can remember a news item in Modern Railways stating that BR were seriously considering it late 1970's. They wanted a four-track electric railway north of Carlisle, two via each route. Of course the plan may have come from the Mad Hatter side of the planning team....

 

[6Gman]

I can remember a news item in Modern Railways stating that BR were seriously considering it late 1970's. They wanted a four-track electric railway north of Carlisle, two via each route. Of course the plan may have come from the Mad Hatter side of the planning team....

I worked for a spell in the Forward Planning Section. There were certainly some Mad Hatter ideas ...

 

[70014IronDuke]

I can remember a news item in Modern Railways stating that BR were seriously considering it late 1970's. They wanted a four-track electric railway north of Carlisle, two via each route. Of course the plan may have come from the Mad Hatter side of the planning team....

OK. Fair enough. It was MR, though. And the immediate question, surely, would be why? Yes, of course, operators would love it, but could they justify it? After all, it's two-track most of the way Preston - Carlisle, so why do you need four track north of Carlisle? To avoid Beattock?
In steam days, with unfitted goods, I'm sure they really appreciated the GSW, but with electric traction?
I'm sure it might have been mused about, but approached as a serious idea, and costed?

Somehow I doub ti. Oh well, who knows?

 

[30907]

I believe that passengers would prefer this than having to alight from a train at Preston/Lancaster, get onto a bus and then go through the reverse process at Carlisle.

I agree. However, even for a planned diversion with revised diagramming, you would need 12 Voyagers (assuming doubled up) simply to run an hourly shuttle Preston-Carlisle, so, even allowing for a few Thunderbird drags, you would probably still be having to change at least once. Certainly the last time I recall Virgin operating that way, there were only a handful of trains.