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Derailment near Grange Over Sands

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swt_passenger

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Agent_Squash said:
Please read my other comment…



NR is actively following a reactive maintenance strategy. I would hope that this risk was identified months ago, but it doesn’t look like it was.
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Identifying a risk months ago wouldn't be reactive. Reactive is dealing with something after it had already happened. Did you mean to write proactive?
 
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Agent_Squash

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swt_passenger said:
Identifying a risk months ago wouldn't be reactive. Reactive is dealing with something after it had already happened. Did you mean to write proactive?
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No, I mean’t reactive. If the strategy was proactive it would’ve been mitigated ASAP.

Obviously this thread is bringing to light the unique tidal conditions that Morecambe Bay brings though, and there is a a lot of complexity in that.
 
NorthWestRover

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The daytime trains are all pretty busy at the weekend. Mix of visitors to Silverdale, Arnside, Grange, Ulverston; locals going from one village to another; younger People going to Lancaster or Preston for a night out.
 
Howardh

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Scooby said:
Thank you for the additional post stuving. I didn't realise that my original link was paywalled, as I coud read it OK !
Something in that locale isn't right, as swathes of Grange Golf Course, which lie on the other side of the embankment have been underwater for months now (or have been every time I've driven past, for, ahem, many months !)

This piccie, from a Dec 23 Mail article gives you an idea of the sogginess in that area.

17572531
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Looks like the sea defence is perfect, but it's holding in all the rainwater from inland!
 
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BrianW

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Scooby said:
Thank you for the additional post stuving. I didn't realise that my original link was paywalled, as I coud read it OK !
Something in that locale isn't right, as swathes of Grange Golf Course, which lie on the other side of the embankment have been underwater for months now (or have been every time I've driven past, for, ahem, many months !)

This piccie, from a Dec 23 Mail article gives you an idea of the sogginess in that area.

17572531
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Thank you for this, Scooby. I find the piccie most informative. Looks like a substantial length of line with water on both sides of the embankment- a lot of weight of water 'going nowhere', not drained by the Seldom Seen Culvert! One for the hydrological engineers?
 
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Bletchleyite

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BrianW said:
Thank you for this, Scooby. I find the piccie most informative. Looks like a substantial length of line with water on both sides of the embankment- a lot of weight of water 'going nowhere', not drained by the Seldom Seen Culvert! One for the hydrological engineers?
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Well, a couple of culverts and a massive pile of rocks appears to have solved it for the Conwy Valley...
 
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randyrippley

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stuving said:
Network Rail do in fact manage the drainage of the area, so that article was misleading. In particular, they own and operate the tidal gates (sluice) at Arnside, the mouth of the Winster...........
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The Winster goes nowhere near Arnside, which is on the other side of the Kent estuary.

BrianW said:
Thank you for this, Scooby. I find the piccie most informative. Looks like a substantial length of line with water on both sides of the embankment- a lot of weight of water 'going nowhere', not drained by the Seldom Seen Culvert! One for the hydrological engineers?
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Difficult to see how it can be solved without dropping the deliberately raised water table in the Foulshaw and Meathop Mosses, which are both nature reserves. There has been a deliberate attempt to return them to marshland over the last 15 or so years. If you add that to continued complaints over years about the inability of the authorities to make the Winster valley drainage work and you've got a lot of water with nowhere to go.

Just found this 2018 document (8 page pdf) which overviews the drainage in the area, the flood risk, and the history.
It explains how the Winster and associated waterways are protected and linked, and how they relate to the railway embankment

(Unfortunately it won't let me copy the text so I can't post a preview)
 
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stuving

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randyrippley said:
The Winster goes nowhere near Arnside, which is on the other side of the Kent estuary.


Difficult to see how it can be solved without dropping the deliberately raised water table in the Foulshaw and Meathop Mosses, which are both nature reserves. There has been a deliberate attempt to return them to marshland over the last 15 or so years. If you add that to continued complaints over years about the inability of the authorities to make the Winster valley drainage work and you've got a lot of water with nowhere to go.

Just found this 2018 document (8 page pdf) which overviews the drainage in the area, the flood risk, and the history.
It explains how the Winster and associated waterways are protected and linked, and how they relate to the railway embankment

(Unfortunately it won't let me copy the text so I can't post a preview)
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Yes, I don't where I got Arnside from for the sluice - it doesn't really need a name other than Winster anyway.

That report is of course the AECOM one I cited last night.
 
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For some reason it lets me copy quotes, though they come out a bit messy. It would be a lot to copy but here's the abstract.

3rd International Conference on Protection against Overtopping, 6-8 June 2018, UK

Managing Legacy Infrastructure into the Future: The River
Winster and Meathop Drain Flood Risk.
A.J Forster1 and D. Glasson AECOM, Alençon Link, Basingstoke, RG21 7PP

Abstract
The completion of the Ulverston and Lancaster Railway in the 1850s included the Arnside viaduct and an em-
bankment on the northern side of Morecambe Bay enabling the railway to reach Grange-over-Sands. The em-
bankment was built across the mouth of the River Winster and resulted in a change to the tidal inundation pattern of
the mudflats and saltmarsh area protected by the embankment. The protected area was reclaimed and is now par-
tially developed to include valuable agricultural land, residential properties and a golf club, as well as vital trans-
portation and utility infrastructure.
The sand within Morecambe Bay is extremely mobile causing the migration of drainage channels and has resulted
in the construction of training walls for the two main discharges, the River Kent and River Winster, to enable effi-
cient drainage into the bay. The River Winster is further controlled, as it flows under the embankment, by tidal
gates that have been modified over the past 100 years. Since its construction the embankment has performed effec-
tively as a coastal defence and still currently provides protection against significant coastal events. In recent times
however the flood risk on the landward side of the embankment has increased from fluvial events and is anticipated
to increase further due to climate change and other external factors. This paper will examine the possible causes of
the increase and concludes that it is the natural processes of the estuary that have resulted in the increased flood
risk. The implication for the future management of the embankment and river channels is also discussed.
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Aviator88

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I'm brand new to the railway.

How are these things normally monitored/prevented, from an engineering/geological perspective? Soundings and soil samples seem like a good start, but what else?

Are there defined maximum intervals whereby each and every section of track/ballast/subgrade is inspected? Or is it on a purely risk assessed basis?

I always assumed that the integrity of the railway infrastructure was a watertight (pun unintended) and very well oiled machine. The mind can't help but wonder what the result would have been had this occurred on a 125 mph line, and under marginally worse circumstances.
 
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Undiscovered

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CarrotPie said:
Engines stopping, intercar cables cut, emergency stop button? Just thoughts, I don't know.
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Cheers for that.

So, any reason why the headlights go out at point of derailment? Would the carriage lights also have gone totally, or would emergency systems activate?
 
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156421

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Unlike the Workington to Carlisle closure (which thankfully soon is drawing to a close), this closure isn't showing RRBs on real time trains, although according to local rumors there are indeed RRBs running.
 
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@Scooby thanks for the aerial photo - I went this way to London last week, and large swathes of the country appear to be pretty much inundated with water at the moment - high tide as we went passed that way was highest I’ve ever seen it.

On a more general note, I’m sure I’ve been told that the Furness engine falling down the sinkhole was the inspiration for one of the Thomas The Tank Engine tales - could we be due another book? ;)
 
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stuving

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800001 said:
I would assume due to the servere impact and damage to the train that it lost all power etc
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There wasn't an actual impact, was there? From the big clouds of dust thrown up, I'd guess that flying ballast was the main cause of damage, wrecking a lot of the systems in boxes under the floor.
 
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Winthorpe

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PyrahnaRanger said:
On a more general note, I’m sure I’ve been told that the Furness engine falling down the sinkhole was the inspiration for one of the Thomas The Tank Engine tales - could we be due another book? ;)
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I remember that story well (even though it was a long time since I read those books) :lol:

download.jpg
 
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randyrippley

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skyhigh

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randyrippley said:
2) the up signal goes to danger as the train is still passing it in the other direction- someone's reactions were pretty quick
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Or it cut the cable as it went... It was posted upthread that the controlling signalbox was switched out.
 
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thenorthern

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I would imagine it's a top priority for Network Rail to get the line repaired given it's the main route for the nuclear trains.

Given the low loading gauges for the Cumbria Coast line are nuclear trains allowed to go via Whitehaven to get to Carlisle?
 
MeathopMermaid

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Some background info ... Meathop Road runs parallel to the railway for a mile, including in the area where the derailment happened. ln the last few years the road has been chronically prone to flooding, causing many issues to road users, vehicles, and land wners alike. A local farmer has been documenting this from his tractor cab. This video - filmed on 12 December 2023 shows the sitaution. It may also demonstrate the issue that emergency services had in getting vehicles to the nearest rod access point (Holme Island).
 
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