Did a K3 2-6-0 really make it through to West Wales in the early 1960's?

[musicindetail]

Some time ago, I read that at some point in the early '60s, an Eastern Region K3 2-6-0 made it through to West Wales on a freight working. As unlikely as it sounded to me and with no specific details given, I have since found colour footage of an apparently ex-works K3 entering Birmingham New Street on a passenger working, proving that K3's certainly wandered far afield back in the day. I have a photo of a K1 2-6-0 in steam on Cardiff East Dock shed in the 1960s, so I guess the K3 story could conceivably be accurate.
Can anyone shine any light on this?

 

[6Gman]

Some time ago, I read that at some point in the early '60s, an Eastern Region K3 2-6-0 made it through to West Wales on a freight working. As unlikely as it sounded to me and with no specific details given, I have since found colour footage of an apparently ex-works K3 entering Birmingham New Street on a passenger working, proving that K3's certainly wandered far afield back in the day. I have a photo of a K1 2-6-0 in steam on Cardiff East Dock shed in the 1960s, so I guess the K3 story could conceivably be accurate.
Can anyone shine any light on this?

It would have been very early 60s as I believe the K3s had gone by the end of 1962.

Possibly a Colwick or Annesley loco via Woodford Halse and Banbury?

Such weird workings were more common then due to the looser requirement for traction knowledge.

 

[Harvester]

Some time ago, I read that at some point in the early '60s, an Eastern Region K3 2-6-0 made it through to West Wales on a freight working. As unlikely as it sounded to me and with no specific details given, I have since found colour footage of an apparently ex-works K3 entering Birmingham New Street on a passenger working, proving that K3's certainly wandered far afield back in the day. I have a photo of a K1 2-6-0 in steam on Cardiff East Dock shed in the 1960s, so I guess the K3 story could conceivably be accurate.
Can anyone shine any light on this?

The Railway Observer reported that Colwick K3 61894 was at Neath on 5th April 1961. How it arrived was not known, but it was booked to work a Margam Yard to Gloucester freight the following day, and was noted at Gloucester on 6th April.

 

[musicindetail]

It would have been very early 60s as I believe the K3s had gone by the end of 1962.

Possibly a Colwick or Annesley loco via Woodford Halse and Banbury?

Such weird workings were more common then due to the looser requirement for traction knowledge.

That makes sense, thank you, I hadn't thought of that. Quite a rare visitor to my home area though! Having said that, the scrapyards in this area were bringing hugely varied types of loco through from many areas of the country.

The Railway Observer reported that Colwick K3 61894 was at Neath on 5th April 1961. How it arrived was not known, but it was booked to work a Margam Yard to Gloucester freight the following day, and was noted at Gloucester on 6th April.

Thank you, that's the one! I remember the number now! That's the beauty of this forum, obscure workings from long ago can be pinned down with considerable detail. Long may it continue.

 

[6Gman]

That makes sense, thank you, I hadn't thought of that. Quite a rare visitor to my home area though! Having said that, the scrapyards in this area were bringing hugely varied types of loco through from many areas of the country.


Thank you, that's the one! I remember the number now! That's the beauty of this forum, obscure workings from long ago can be pinned down with considerable detail. Long may it continue.

Weren't there ironstone workings in the late 50s/early 60s from the East Midlands to South Wales that were routed via Woodford Halse, the S&MJ and (I assume) Honeybourne? [EDIT: the link to allow this route was opened in 1960 - thanks Google]

I think they were generally worked by WDs and then by 9Fs but in the absence of the regular loco Woodford Halse might have used a K3?

For more general traffic a 1955 Simplifier I have seen lists the following:

0130 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
0215 Class H Woodford-Gloucester
1920 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2050 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2150 Class H Woodford-Cardiff

On any specific day, depending on traffic on hand, one of these could easily have been extended to Margam or Neath.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

How about the Grimsby to Whitland fish train?

I haven't looked into it, but I believe an Immingham engine would work it as far as Banbury where there would be a change of engine - perhaps on this occasion a K3 worked right through?

In my day (around 1961) it was usually a Britannia, but no doubt K3s were still used.

 

[Bevan Price]

Weren't there ironstone workings in the late 50s/early 60s from the East Midlands to South Wales that were routed via Woodford Halse, the S&MJ and (I assume) Honeybourne? [EDIT: the link to allow this route was opened in 1960 - thanks Google]

I think they were generally worked by WDs and then by 9Fs but in the absence of the regular loco Woodford Halse might have used a K3?

For more general traffic a 1955 Simplifier I have seen lists the following:

0130 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
0215 Class H Woodford-Gloucester
1920 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2050 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2150 Class H Woodford-Cardiff

On any specific day, depending on traffic on hand, one of these could easily have been extended to Margam or Neath.

Or, if the crew had been willing, a Cardiff area depot might have "borrowed" a visting loco for one of its own duties, especially if it was short of suitable local locos.

 

[musicindetail]

Weren't there ironstone workings in the late 50s/early 60s from the East Midlands to South Wales that were routed via Woodford Halse, the S&MJ and (I assume) Honeybourne? [EDIT: the link to allow this route was opened in 1960 - thanks Google]

I think they were generally worked by WDs and then by 9Fs but in the absence of the regular loco Woodford Halse might have used a K3?

For more general traffic a 1955 Simplifier I have seen lists the following:

0130 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
0215 Class H Woodford-Gloucester
1920 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2050 Class H Woodford-Cardiff
2150 Class H Woodford-Cardiff

On any specific day, depending on traffic on hand, one of these could easily have been extended to Margam or Neath.

That makes perfect sense. As you rightly say, the ironstone workings did bring 'foreign' locos to South Wales. In the absence of a 9f or WD, a substitute could well have been a K3. A rare bird in this neck of the woods though for sure!

How about the Grimsby to Whitland fish train?

I haven't looked into it, but I believe an Immingham engine would work it as far as Banbury where there would be a change of engine - perhaps on this occasion a K3 worked right through?

In my day (around 1961) it was usually a Britannia, but no doubt K3s were still used.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. I understand the K3's were a go-anywhere engine. Strong too. Perhaps it wasn't as rare as I thought to find one so far from home.

Or, if the crew had been willing, a Cardiff area depot might have "borrowed" a visting loco for one of its own duties, especially if it was short of suitable local locos.

Yes, you're right. My father was a Driver at Ebbw Junction shed in Newport, and that shed would quite often use a visiting engine to cover for an unavailable engine. He once drove a Super D that had come down from the Crewe area, taking it up the Western Valley to one of the many collieries in this area. It was one of the toughest trips he ever had. worn out and short of steam, uphill all the way!

 

[6Gman]

Yes, you're right. My father was a Driver at Ebbw Junction shed in Newport, and that shed would quite often use a visiting engine to cover for an unavailable engine. He once drove a Super D that had come down from the Crewe area, taking it up the Western Valley to one of the many collieries in this area. It was one of the toughest trips he ever had. worn out and short of steam, uphill all the way!

Even as a proud LNW man I have to admit that was ... brave !

How about the Grimsby to Whitland fish train?

I haven't looked into it, but I believe an Immingham engine would work it as far as Banbury where there would be a change of engine - perhaps on this occasion a K3 worked right through?

In my day (around 1961) it was usually a Britannia, but no doubt K3s were still used.

I think they would have been sweeping the tender for fragments of coal if it had worked through from Grimsby to South Wales!

 

[robert thomas]

I unfortunately missed seeing the K3 as that Easter I stayed for 3 weeks with a penfriendin Versailles. I was told all about it when I came home and this is what I wrote about it in our club magazine at the time. "An E.R. K3 class 2-6-0 of 40E Colwick (Nottingham)visited Neath depot on 5th April. It is believed to be the first E.R. visitorto South Wales since the war. As to how it got here is not fully known, but it is believed to have come down the Central Wales line with a freight to Llanelly,where it stayed the night on shed.It ran light to Neath Depot the following morning and stayed the rest of the day. At 11.30 p.m. it departed light to Margam New Yard to take the 12.34 a.m. class D freight to Gloucester, and was seen on Gloucester (Barnwood) shed the following day"

With hindsight the thought of it coming down the Central Wales seems a bit unlikely- but who knows?

 

[randyrippley]

It was one of the toughest trips he ever had. worn out and short of steam, uphill all the way!

Was that him or the loco?

 

[D6130]

With hindsight the thought of it coming down the Central Wales seems a bit unlikely- but who knows?

I would have thought that its route availability (axle-loading wise) may have been a bit high for that line.

 

[Magdalia]

How about the Grimsby to Whitland fish train?

I haven't looked into it, but I believe an Immingham engine would work it as far as Banbury where there would be a change of engine - perhaps on this occasion a K3 worked right through?

In my day (around 1961) it was usually a Britannia, but no doubt K3s were still used.

The Britannias worked the Grimsby-Whitland fish as far as Banbury in 1961-63, when Immingham had an allocation. Although the Britannias worked through to Banbury I suspect other ER steam locos only worked to Leicester Central.

The Grimsby-Whitland fish exchanged traffic with the Hull-Plymouth fish at Moreton, near Swindon, so Eastern locos were unlikely to get beyond there.

The Railway Observer reported that Colwick K3 61894 was at Neath on 5th April 1961. How it arrived was not known, but it was booked to work a Margam Yard to Gloucester freight the following day, and was noted at Gloucester on 6th April.

05/04/61 was in the middle of the week after Easter. Might that be significant?

I understand the K3's were a go-anywhere engine.

Route availability of steam locos is not my strong point, but I do have a 1959 working timetable for London, Cambridge, Norwich and branches that gives some route availability information. In those days most of the main routes in the Cambridge area were RA7, but K3s were only permitted to work those RA7 routes by virtue of being listed as "additional classes of engines permitted". They were not permitted on the M&GN, which was RA6.

 

[Gloster]

A bit of searching gives 8 as the RA for the K3; @Magdalia‘s comment above suggests they were at the lighter end of the classsification. The LMS 8F were 6 and the 5MT were 7, and both were used on the Central Wales. This presumes that the LNER/ER and LMS/LMR systems were the same.

 

[Harvester]

I would have thought that its route availability (axle-loading wise) may have been a bit high for that line.

It was no heavier than a Stanier Class 5 or 8F, and they worked over the Central Wales route. However with 61894 being allocated to Colwick it seems more likely it used the GC and accessed the WR at Banbury.

 

[Merle Haggard]

A bit of searching gives 8 as the RA for the K3; @Magdalia‘s comment above suggests they were at the lighter end of the classsification. The LMS 8F were 6 and the 5MT were 7, and both were used on the Central Wales. This presumes that the LNER/ER and LMS/LMR systems were the same.

Don't forget that tithe W.R. used its own version of route availability, the coloured discs. RA8 would surely be red. But in my holidaying youth 8Fs and Jubilees reached Swansea Victoria.

-------

And what about gauging? LNER locos were banned South of Melton on the LNW/GN Joint, because beyond was to LNW gauge, obviously because it was tighter (width at platform level???).
I can't remember what it was at the moment, but K3s had a nickname among footplatemen because of their extremely rough riding at speed. That big-diameter parallel boiler made them look a bit top heavy from the front, probably connected.

 

[Taunton]

Such weird workings were more common then due to the looser requirement for traction knowledge.

Very loose indeed - to the extent of "hmmm, wonder what this does ...". But an experienced crew could work them out whatever, "that must be an injector, this way, no, the other way, fine, this is the brake valve, on, off ... OK, ready to go".

I believe however the LMS Compounds were a particular challenge for those who had never handled one before.

I'm reminded of such past issues when renting a car at a foreign airport, and presented with one I've not handled before (especially French brands) and having to work out what does what. "Does this dip/bright the headlights?" ... and the back window wiper starts .

 

[Merle Haggard]

Such weird workings were more common then due to the looser requirement for traction knowledge.

My own personal favourite (I think I've mentioned it before) was to find a V2 on Northampton shed one Sunday. Looking at the allocation board, it was chalked up for the 8.05 Euston. And it did work it. 'Traction Knowledge', like the finer details of 'Route Knowledge*' was in the future then.
But you just never just absented from school in those days - still regret.

*in the very interesting (to me, anyway!) book Off Northampton Shed the writer, a fitter then fireman, relates the story of a driver who used his free tickets to take family holidays at different resorts around the L.M.R. - and spent the journeys leaning out of the window. This enabled him to claim wide route knowledge when any overtime to cover was on offer

 

[Merthyr Imp]

--

And what about gauging? LNER locos were banned South of Melton on the LNW/GN Joint, because beyond was to LNW gauge, obviously because it was tighter (width at platform level???).

I don't know about beyond there, but they did work at least as far as Marefield North Junction in order to get to Leicester.

 

[61058]

Don't forget that tithe W.R. used its own version of route availability, the coloured discs. RA8 would surely be red. But in my holidaying youth 8Fs and Jubilees reached Swansea Victoria.

-------

And what about gauging? LNER locos were banned South of Melton on the LNW/GN Joint, because beyond was to LNW gauge, obviously because it was tighter (width at platform level???).
I can't remember what it was at the moment, but K3s had a nickname among footplatemen because of their extremely rough riding at speed. That big-diameter parallel boiler made them look a bit top heavy from the front, probably connected.

K3's were known as Jazzers due to their 3 cylinder syncopated exhaust and rough riding at speed.

 

[musicindetail]

Even as a proud LNW man I have to admit that was ... brave !


I think they would have been sweeping the tender for fragments of coal if it had worked through from Grimsby to South Wales!

I was wondering about that. Even if the K3 went onto a shed for coaling at some stage of the journey, would the fresh coal have been compatible with a Gresley engine?

You're right, that particular Super D was soon sent back to the LMR after that run, apparently!

Was that him or the loco?

I think the honest answer to that is - both!

 

[Merle Haggard]

I was wondering about that. Even if the K3 went onto a shed for coaling at some stage of the journey, would the fresh coal have been compatible with a Gresley engine?

You're right, that particular Super D was soon sent back to the LMR after that run, apparently!

In the book LNWR 8 - coupled Goods Engines there's the anecdote about the Western Region takeover of the Merthyr, Tredegar & Abergavenny section at Nationalisation; until then, excursions to Bournville for the Cadbury factory from that line had been worked throughout by Super Ds, but the new management insisted that ex G.W. passenger engines should be used from Abergavenny forward in future.
So, on 1st August 1948, the Super Ds on the Pontllanfraith - Bournville excursion came off and were replaced by a 'Hall'. It got off to a poor start - slipped so badly that the train rolled back towards catch points - and altogether lost 2 hours to Bournville.

However, for some reason the Super Ds continued to be used on Barry excursions from the MT&A until closure.

I don't know about beyond there, but they did work at least as far as Marefield North Junction in order to get to Leicester.

Interesting, and I don't doubt you; but they were definitely banned at the Southern end, so all we got at Northampton was 40E WDs, never O!s or O4s (apart from when 64779 somehow sneaked through - it really puzzled everybody when its big smokebox and wheels appeared in the distance) and, in other respects, the Joint Line was, I thought very G.N. North of Melton and L.N.W. South (e.g. signalling, even mileposts.). But I might well be wrong, it was a long time ago it closed, and engine numbers were all that mattered then!

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Interesting, and I don't doubt you; but they were definitely banned at the Southern end, so all we got at Northampton was 40E WDs, never O!s or O4s (apart from when 64779 somehow sneaked through - it really puzzled everybody when its big smokebox and wheels appeared in the distance) and, in other respects, the Joint Line was, I thought very G.N. North of Melton and L.N.W. South (e.g. signalling, even mileposts.). But I might well be wrong, it was a long time ago it closed, and engine numbers were all that mattered then!

There are numerous photos of B1s on the Leicester branch plus at Belgrave Road, not to mention K2s and 0-6-0s.

 

[Magdalia]

There are numerous photos of B1s on the Leicester branch plus at Belgrave Road, not to mention K2s and 0-6-0s.

1962 was the last summer of passenger trains from Belgrave Road to Skegness and Mablethorpe. The picture evidence suggests that most of them were B1 hauled.

But my 1959WTT suggests that B1s had wider route availability than K3s.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There are numerous photos of B1s on the Leicester branch plus at Belgrave Road, not to mention K2s and 0-6-0s.

You've reminded me - I have some myself - Doh ...

... thinking about it, I have travelled behind a B1 from Northampton - Peterborough (L.N.W.R.) quite a few times, too. Just wonder now why O1s/O4s were banned to hear over the Joint - and I certainly saw an O4/8 at Northampton Bridge St coming from the Peterborough direction, too. One of those things, the more you think about them, the less rational they seem.

 

[6Gman]

I was wondering about that. Even if the K3 went onto a shed for coaling at some stage of the journey, would the fresh coal have been compatible with a Gresley engine?

You're right, that particular Super D was soon sent back to the LMR after that run, apparently!


I think the honest answer to that is - both!

Other than the GW locos which had to have Best Welsh Steam Coal (or so some claimed!) I don't think the type of coal mattered too much - the quality did; some depots had twin hoppers for coal, one for top work the other for shunts and local trips.

And it would be unusual for a loco to go on shed to top up coal during a journey (did happen occasionally).

 

[Taunton]

Yes, you're right. My father was a Driver at Ebbw Junction shed in Newport, and that shed would quite often use a visiting engine to cover for an unavailable engine. He once drove a Super D that had come down from the Crewe area, taking it up the Western Valley to one of the many collieries in this area. It was one of the toughest trips he ever had. worn out and short of steam, uphill all the way!

Not as unusual (apart from the borrowing) as it might sound; the ex-LNWR sheds at Abergavenny and Tredegar had some 20 Super Ds allocated between them in 1950, they were the main freight power on the ex-LNWR line between the two, and a few lasted through until the sheds closed in 1960.

Your father probably said it was uphill both ways .

 

[musicindetail]

Not as unusual (apart from the borrowing) as it might sound; the ex-LNWR sheds at Abergavenny and Tredegar had some 20 Super Ds allocated between them in 1950, they were the main freight power on the ex-LNWR line between the two, and a few lasted through until the sheds closed in 1960.

Your father probably said it was uphill both ways .

Of course!

Other than the GW locos which had to have Best Welsh Steam Coal (or so some claimed!) I don't think the type of coal mattered too much - the quality did; some depots had twin hoppers for coal, one for top work the other for shunts and local trips.

And it would be unusual for a loco to go on shed to top up coal during a journey (did happen occasionally).

Good point. I only wondered because of the distance 61894 travelled that day. As 6Gman suggested, if it had travelled from Grimbsby to West Wales the coal supply would be somewhere near exhausted by the journey's end I imagine.

 

[Gloster]

One possibility was that the loco was on a Western shed, such as Banbury or Swindon, having previously worked in on a train from the the Eastern, and the shedmaster found that he had nothing available for a duty (or nothing he wanted to lose). So he grabs the K3 and sends that out.

 

[Taunton]

One possibility was that the loco was on a Western shed, such as Banbury or Swindon, having previously worked in on a train from the the Eastern, and the shedmaster found that he had nothing available for a duty (or nothing he wanted to lose). So he grabs the K3 and sends that out.

Nothing unusual in this approach. The absolute past master of that was the shedmaster at Bath Green Park in the 1950s-60s summers. From about Thursday evening onwards he would begin salting away anything useful that came in, generally on freights from Gloucester/Birmingham etc, for the summer Saturday chaos. Merging two northbound freights into one, leaving empty wagons in the yard, that sort of thing. Black 5s preferred, but anything else worthwhile would do. So locos from Derby, maybe even Canklow (for those who know where that is) would be on the back line by the river, slightly hidden from view by the shed building from any passing management in a train, to be released early on Saturday for a round trip to Bournemouth and back.

One one occasion an incoming Black 5 was hidden away in this fashion, and the Gloucester crew were told some excuse and given, of all things, a 3F Jinty tank for the return working. Half a day later another Gloucester freight working came in - and the Jinty had very promptly been sent back unannounced!