Did BR Miss a Trick With Steam Locos

[70014IronDuke]

DR (East Germany) finished steam in 1987 but kept 50/60 locos in working order to work specials.

The DR lived under a somewhat different economic model than BR in 68, even with a Labour govt (thankfully)!

 

[341o2]

Or rather electrifying

That was Bulleid's way of thinking, a new generation of modern steam locomotives that would eventually be replaced by electrification, thus avoiding many diesel classes

 

[Calthrop]

Poland did something similar a few years later -- as well as the depot at Wolsztyn I think there were some others with occasional special trains. Of course by then, steam locos were an attraction that brought in foreign visitors with more disposable income than the locals, although I don't know whether that had been thought of when the plans were first made.

(My italics) -- per my understanding: yes, it had. This initiative for retaining several "working museum" steam depots, exempt as it were from the eventual elimination of steam elsewhere on Poland's state railways: it originated in the early 1980s (a very fair few years before the end of "general-run-of-the-mill" steam working on the system) -- chiefly conceived, and "sold" to the state-railway management, by one visionary guy (who also loved steam for its own sake) high in the counsels of said body. It was seen from the first, both as a "living railway history" exercise for Poland itself; and a likely draw for goodly numbers of steam railway enthusiasts -- and their money -- from countries abroad, in a world where regular everyday steam working was becoming ever more scarce. (And a handy earner re tourism by foreigners, for Poland: which, while greatly loved by some non-Poles, is overall on a poorer tourist-attracting wicket than many European countries.)

"Wolsztyn and others": original plan was for four such "museum depots" -- of which Wolsztyn was one -- in various parts of the country. Things as planned were done, originally, at all these venues; but it so came about, owing to various factors, that Wolsztyn (now, unavoidably, itself at a low ebb) was the only one where the undertaking "took off" and prolongedly flourished. I think that of the other depots concerned: that at Jaworzyna Slaska still sees a small amount of sporadic action.

 

[32475]

With the exception of the Vale of Rheidol, any steam after 1968 was completely off BR’s agenda and it wasn’t long after then that the first concept of the APT came about.
Having said that, I’ve long thought that keeping a few steam locos and rolling on the Isle of Wight for the summer season would have been rather wonderful and a potential moneymaker for BR. Thankfully though we have the IoWSR

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The DR lived under a somewhat different economic model than BR in 68, even with a Labour govt (thankfully)!

Especially when oil supplies from Russia were curtailed , then dropped.......(basically reducing the fairly decent economic progress - for the Eastern "bloc") , ending in a large increase in brown coal mining for domestic use. DR steam may have seemed a good strategic - albeit modest - policy.

 

[Calthrop]

I’ve long thought that keeping a few steam locos and rolling on the Isle of Wight for the summer season would have been rather wonderful and a potential moneymaker for BR.

If I have things rightly: an idea in this general "ballpark", though more ambitious than as above, was seriously contemplated by BR around the beginning of the 1960s. The notion involved adapting standard 2-6-2Ts of the 84*** series, for specific Isle of Wight conditions; one of the class was indeed experimentally thus modified. Idea of -- should things look hopeful -- giving this treatment to a bunch of locos of the class, and using them on all services on the two surviving IOW lines; with their superseding thus, the venerable 02 0-4-4Ts then doing that job. There was envisaged, as a possible crowd-puller and money-maker in the "nostalgia" department: perhaps, as policy, keeping the 2-6-2Ts running on the Island services, beyond the date (whenever that would end up coming about) of the end of steam on the rest of BR's standard-gauge system. In the event, nothing came of this putative scheme; modifications were done just to the one loco, then the idea was dropped -- but it seems something of an intriguing "might-have-been".

 

[davidknibb]

I've nearly finished reading Christian Wolmar's "British Rail" - a history since nationalisation. And explains very clearly the attitude to trying to project the image of a modern railway. Although it doesn't directly cover OP's question - it leaves absolutely no doubt as to what the result would have been if it was suggested. So no they didn't miss a trick - it was deliberate policy to present as modern an image as possible. And they did brilliantly well at doing this given the huge hostile government attitude to the railways.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've nearly finished reading Christian Wolmar's "British Rail" - a history since nationalisation. And explains very clearly the attitude to trying to project the image of a modern railway. Although it doesn't directly cover OP's question - it leaves absolutely no doubt as to what the result would have been if it was suggested. So no they didn't miss a trick - it was deliberate policy to present as modern an image as possible. And they did brilliantly well at doing this given the huge hostile government attitude to the railways.

I didn't feel Labour had a hostile attitude to railways. They introduced the ... sorry, forget the official name, but the act allowing subsidies to loss-making services in 68, didn't they?

Although this probably should go into a new thread.

 

[davidknibb]

Crossland - at Environment I think in Wilson's 1974 Labour Govt tried as hard as he could to bring in a new round of service cuts much bigger than Beeching's. The Labour Govt were no real friends of the railways. Again read Wolmar's book - most illuminating

 

[32475]

If I have things rightly: an idea in this general "ballpark", though more ambitious than as above, was seriously contemplated by BR around the beginning of the 1960s. The notion involved adapting standard 2-6-2Ts of the 84*** series, for specific Isle of Wight conditions; one of the class was indeed experimentally thus modified. Idea of -- should things look hopeful -- giving this treatment to a bunch of locos of the class, and using them on all services on the two surviving IOW lines; with their superseding thus, the venerable 02 0-4-4Ts then doing that job. There was envisaged, as a possible crowd-puller and money-maker in the "nostalgia" department: perhaps, as policy, keeping the 2-6-2Ts running on the Island services, beyond the date (whenever that would end up coming about) of the end of steam on the rest of BR's standard-gauge system. In the event, nothing came of this putative scheme; modifications were done just to the one loco, then the idea was dropped -- but it seems something of an intriguing "might-have-been".

Thanks for that Calthrop. If only that had happened! If anyone out there has any magazine articles or recollections about this proposal it would be fascinating to hear.

 

[eldomtom2]

Although it seems to me probably true that keeping several depots of 9Fs going until the 1980s was never going to happen, remember that prosperous West Germany continued using steam until 1977.

Britain got rid of steam faster than other countries - a few different decisions and steam could probably have kept going into the mid-70s as with Austria, France, Japan, etc...

As for image, it'd be interesting to see if any actual research was done on whether BR's image changed and if so what were the drivers of it - remember by the time the corporate image started coming in steam was already gone or nearly gone from most of the network...

Of course probably the primary answer to the thread's question is that as many people after the end of steam have found, running steam railtours is usually not a profitable business, especially because you lose out on all economies of scale.

Crossland - at Environment I think in Wilson's 1974 Labour Govt tried as hard as he could to bring in a new round of service cuts much bigger than Beeching's. The Labour Govt were no real friends of the railways. Again read Wolmar's book - most illuminating

Crosland was acting on his own initiative; his proposals weren't government policy and had little chance of doing so.

 

[6Gman]

The real crazy trick was continuing to built 9Fs right up until 1960 and then withdrawing them with maybe less than five years of service. If only there were an auditor who insisted that they were far from life-expired and should be kept in service for their intended lifespan or near enough i e. up until 1980 or so, where there was appropriate work. Thus there could have been 10-20 operational steam depots where crews who loved working with steam could have gravitated to, and a small fleet of operational passenger locos being kept alongside for enthusiast working.

I have this fantasy of the last working stem depots in the UK in the 1980s being swarmed over by Dutch, German, Japanese and American steam enthusiasts.

As the son of a steam-era driver I suspect they were few and far between.

And wives of footplatemen willing to move to Carnforth or Lostock Hall to indulge their husbands' interest in coming home filthy each night were rarer still.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Thanks for that Calthrop. If only that had happened! If anyone out there has any magazine articles or recollections about this proposal it would be fascinating to hear.

Bradley mentions it in his RCTS history of IOW locos. 84020 was taken into Eastleigh in 1960 but the work was hardly started before it got cancelled. In retrospect, the two IOW lines would have been a marvellous steam network, if a very expensive one - the number of staff that were employed on the IOW in the 1960’s were a big cost.

The 1955 modernisation plan was a 15 year plan and originally envisaged around 7000 steam engines still being in service in 1970. Given that rate of withdrawal, under that thinking this points to BR steam finally ending in the late 1970’s, possibly 1980 but probably no later.

As the financial position worsened and the drive to replace steam (which took up a lot of BR’s working expenses) took off, the dates moved forwards - at one stage it was 1972 before 1968 was finally settled upon.

Did BR miss a trick, probably not. All a bit niche for an operator that was trying to concentrate its resources into running a core business at minimum cost to the Government. Letting York museum or private operators do their thing on the BR network was probably the best way to go.

 

[Bevan Price]

As indicated in post#29, the Marples-Beeching closures had left a surplus of potentially unemployed diesels - locos and dmu. Under those circumstances, steam had little chance of surviving. An unfortunate consequence was that dmus with 3+2 seating were inflicted on some longish routes for which they were totally undesirable (from the passengers' viewpoint).

 

[USRailFan]

Do you know if any country that did this? Maybe that answers your question.

In addition, few if any heritage lines cover their costs from fares.

Union Pacific in the US has one steam locomotive that never officially retired from service (although it was stored for some time), and is still used to run steam specials to this day

 

[Dr_Paul]

I imagine that steam locomotives were rapidly withdrawn because BR balanced the potential costs, and felt it more economic to have just one type of locomotive (diesel) than having two different types of locomotives (steam and diesel) with very different fuel provision and maintenance regimes on the go for one or two or even more decades, even though many steam locomotives had plenty of life left in them and were flogged off at a song to scrap-merchants. Even if steam locomotives were kept to a few sheds in specific areas, there still would be the need to have infrastructure specially for them outwith those areas (water cranes, coal drops, turntables), all of which would add to overall costs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If I have things rightly: an idea in this general "ballpark", though more ambitious than as above, was seriously contemplated by BR around the beginning of the 1960s. The notion involved adapting standard 2-6-2Ts of the 84*** series, for specific Isle of Wight conditions; one of the class was indeed experimentally thus modified. Idea of -- should things look hopeful -- giving this treatment to a bunch of locos of the class, and using them on all services on the two surviving IOW lines; with their superseding thus, the venerable 02 0-4-4Ts then doing that job. There was envisaged, as a possible crowd-puller and money-maker in the "nostalgia" department: perhaps, as policy, keeping the 2-6-2Ts running on the Island services, beyond the date (whenever that would end up coming about) of the end of steam on the rest of BR's standard-gauge system. In the event, nothing came of this putative scheme; modifications were done just to the one loco, then the idea was dropped -- but it seems something of an intriguing "might-have-been".

That idea was doomed to failure. It had one major flaw. Had they used ex LU steam engines it would have gone ahead........

It is why my beloved 442s could never have been used on the IOW .

 

[simonw]

Union Pacific in the US has one steam locomotive that never officially retired from service (although it was stored for some time), and is still used to run steam specials to this day

yes, rather a different scale of operation from the op's idea

 

[778]

The loco crews would admire the office girls as they left the train, but few gave these grimy men on the footplate a second glance

Did they get a second glance when they started driving the electric trains?

 

[L+Y]

If I have things rightly: an idea in this general "ballpark", though more ambitious than as above, was seriously contemplated by BR around the beginning of the 1960s. The notion involved adapting standard 2-6-2Ts of the 84*** series, for specific Isle of Wight conditions; one of the class was indeed experimentally thus modified. Idea of -- should things look hopeful -- giving this treatment to a bunch of locos of the class, and using them on all services on the two surviving IOW lines; with their superseding thus, the venerable 02 0-4-4Ts then doing that job. There was envisaged, as a possible crowd-puller and money-maker in the "nostalgia" department: perhaps, as policy, keeping the 2-6-2Ts running on the Island services, beyond the date (whenever that would end up coming about) of the end of steam on the rest of BR's standard-gauge system. In the event, nothing came of this putative scheme; modifications were done just to the one loco, then the idea was dropped -- but it seems something of an intriguing "might-have-been".

I've always wondered about this: would we have seen the 84***'s in BR Blue ala Vale of Rheidol, I wonder?

 

[Calthrop]

One suspects that impassioned steam enthusiasts would say "let them be purple with green stripes, so long as they work regular everyday service trains" .

 

[markindurham]

Bear in mind, too, that the Wilson government of 1964-70 - the one elected on the promise of stopping many of the Beeching Report closures that were planned, but instead accelerated the process - was wedded to having the UK at the forefront of "The White Heat of Technology", and steam was regarded as going against that, despite the BR Standards having been built with a view to running until the 1990s and replacement by electrics. OK, the 1955 Modernisation Plan had put a big hit on the older steam traction, but there was supposedly scope for both steam and diesel traction until electrification could replace both. Then, of course, you subsequently had what was effectively a p***ing contest between certain Regions as to who could eliminate steam quickest, but, certainly in the case of the Western, the Big Freeze of 1963 showed that up to be a bit premature...

 

[randyrippley]

I think there was an opportunity missed with the 9F fleet to use the technology developed with GT3 and turn them into heavy haul gas turbine locos. Running at continuous slow speed on coal and stone trains would with suitable gearing have given us a type 5 fleet years before a diesel was available

 

[eldomtom2]

Bear in mind, too, that the Wilson government of 1964-70 - the one elected on the promise of stopping many of the Beeching Report closures that were planned, but instead accelerated the process - was wedded to having the UK at the forefront of "The White Heat of Technology", and steam was regarded as going against that, despite the BR Standards having been built with a view to running until the 1990s and replacement by electrics.

Source for your claims, especially that the Wilson government took an especial interest in the withdrawal of steam? It's certainly unfair to view Barbara Castle as having accelerated Beeching's closures...

 

[341o2]

Thanks for that Calthrop. If only that had happened! If anyone out there has any magazine articles or recollections about this proposal it would be fascinating to hear.

I have heard the same story, but the locos concerned were the Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T "Mickey Mouse" tank locos, which were especially popular with Southern crews in the West Country, and why the steam railway has examples. The proposal was dropped due to the uncertainty of whether any of the Island's railways would survive, and so the 02s soldiered on, when Ryde to Shanklin was reprieved, there were former tube trains for sale.

I found this on Flikr

An earlier proposal to transfer a batch of BR Standard 2MT tank locomotives to the Isle of Wight was discarded in favour of electrification. Had this proposal gone ahead - and with tourist traffic in mind - it is just possible that the Isle of Wight might have become a second post-1968 bastion of BR steam. This digital representation depicts an Ivatt 2MT, predecessor of the BR Standard 2MT, in corporate blue livery but without the usual yellow warning panels. It carries the name of former Isle of Wight Class 02 has been renumbered W42 in the Isle of Wight numbering scheme and carries the namplate 'Calbourne' from one of the Class 02 locomotives that it replaced. By happy coincidence, two of these Ivatt 2MTs survive in authentic BR liveries on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway (updated 27-Sep-22).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/northernblue109/5536481269

Source for your claims, especially that the Wilson government took an especial interest in the withdrawal of steam? It's certainly unfair to view Barbara Castle as having accelerated Beeching's closures..

My impression is that Labour just let the proposed closures continue

 

[Gloster]

I have heard the same story, but the locos concerned were the Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T "Mickey Mouse" tank locos, which were especially popular with Southern crews in the West Country, and why the steam railway has examples. The proposal was dropped due to the uncertainty of whether any of the Island's railways would survive, and so the 02s soldiered on, and when Ryde to Shanklin was reprieved, there were former tube trains for sale

I always understood it was the 2MT Standard tanks that were considered and that they got no further than measuring up or, possibly, preliminary sketches. The choice of Ivatts for the Steam Railway is because they are the nearest available to the 2MTs, or so I understand.

Electrification had been considered at an earlier date and they even considered diésélisation, but the latter would have required a special build. With the line hanging by a thread, the choice of second-hand stock from LT was just about the only option that wouldn’t have been deemed too costly.

Mostly from a bit of research I did a couple of years ago.

(You will have to put up with the French, but Spelllcheck liked the idea of 2MT Standard yaks.)

 

[markindurham]

Source for your claims, especially that the Wilson government took an especial interest in the withdrawal of steam? It's certainly unfair to view Barbara Castle as having accelerated Beeching's closures...

Several books on the subject have quoted this, both the demise of steam and the backtracking on closures. Face it, the railways have been a political football for many years; a game played with enthusiasm by all sides...

 

[eldomtom2]

Several books on the subject have quoted this, both the demise of steam and the backtracking on closures.

I would much rather have specific sources...

 

[Clarence Yard]

Several books on the subject have quoted this, both the demise of steam and the backtracking on closures. Face it, the railways have been a political football for many years; a game played with enthusiasm by all sides...

Some of which spout complete rubbish, pushing a certain way of looking at the time and making the facts fit that view.

Which is why I would always go to Gourvish as the dispassionate historian of BR (and the politics around it) during that period. His 1948-73 book is a masterpiece.

 

[Ianigsy]

It took about 10-15 years, but BR did eventually cotton on to the steam tour market with the likes of the Scarborough Spa, Cumbrian Mountain/Coast and North Wales Coast Expresses. I think it probably took that long for the nostalgia to warm up, and particularly in the case of Scarborough there was a tourist market at either end, involvement from the NRM and a rainy day attraction made it not too controversial from a commercial point of view.