Digital Fraud Email from WMT?

[moongirlblue]

Dear all, I would be very grateful for any advice.

I recieved an email from WMT a few weeks ago about digital fraud that they suspected me to have done.
Basically I was reported a few months ago for not having a railcard. I was unable to show my railcard because my phone had died but I had a valid railcard.
I had purchased it earlier that day. Anyway, I sent proof of my railcard when I was contacted by WMT, but the response I got back said I needed to provide evidence of a railcard from 2019. The problem is that I don't have access to my old railcards or any info about them. They were physical railcards purchased by family members, most probably from a station ticket office. Because I don't know where these railcards are, WMT has informed me if i don't provide proof of them I will be charged the full amount for all the train journeys I took since 2019, that had reduced railcard fares. What should I do? I have been told to contact railcard to get this evidence, and I am expected to provide it within a week.
I don't think it is fair for them to accuse me of fare evasion when I the only time I was accused of it, I have provided evidence that indicated otherwise.
Please advise. I am very anxious and starting to feel desperate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you upload all of the correspondence you have received with your details redacted? It’s important we see what has been sent in context, and whether or not they are threatening to prosecute you for the single offence where they caught you “red handed”.

 

[moongirlblue]

Email 1)

Dear ,

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on x/x/2023 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate. Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

We look forward to hearing from you.


Email 2)

Dear ,

Thank you for your response and proof of your recent Railcard Whilst investigating your case history and before we investigate further or conclude, we can see attached to you have a previous 16-25 Railcard which I’m sure you have but we will need to see proof and proof of purchase between the date range of February 2019 and December 2022 so we can adjust amounts accordingly, or if necessary.
When we ask for proof of railcard this is because it could affect your case and is done before we send you any amounts, we deem you may owe.
If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount may be calculated at the full cost.

Email 3)

Dear ,

If you are struggling to find your previous railcard history, you can contact the provider who will be able to assist you. If you purchased through trainline you can go onto the trainline app then onto live chat and they will be able to help, alternatively if you purchased through railcard directly, you could contact railcard themselves and they too will be able to support you in gathering your evidence.
If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount of any remaining unaccounted Tickets with railcards for will be calculated at the full cost.

Can you upload all of the correspondence you have received with your details redacted? It’s important we see what has been sent in context, and whether or not they are threatening to prosecute you for the single offence where they caught you “red handed”.

Just shared it in the above post. Thanks.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I'm struggling to see what evidence they would have for a prosecution for that period. You proved you had a valid railcard (just bought) for the instance you were stopped, and they admit that you previously had a railcard. As you say, it's unreasonable for you to have to provide proof that you travelled legitimately for periods up to 5 years ago when there is no evidence for the time you were stopped.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s not up to you to retrospectively prove you had the correct ticket/s or railcard. Tell them you are unable to supply proof for the reasons you gave in your opening post. They likely don’t have evidence for either RoRA or Fraud prosecutions although they may still prosecute you for the single offence you were caught red handed. I’d recommend writing to your MP and the local press. It’s about time train companies stopped dangling very minor prosecutions over people’s heads and effectively extorting them for 5 years of fares. Who keeps a railcard?

I may start making some noise about this to a few consumer journalists I know. This is part of a wider trend by greedy companies.

 

[moongirlblue]

@Brissle Girl @AlterEgo
Thank you for your replies.
Based on the data they have tracked, do you think I can still be prosecuted or fined? I’m very concerned about the fine. I’m a full time student so I don’t have an income. Knowing that I might need to pay for up 5 years of tickets is very worrying, because I don’t want to be prosecuted. It is very frustrating to receive this email in the middle of my assessments as well. I haven’t been able to do anything but think about this for the last few days.

 

[pedr]

Presumably the practical difficulty is that WMT may threaten to prosecute at least for the occurrence where the railcard couldn’t be shown, if they don’t get whatever payment they request.

I think that would be improper, and this one event should be treated as a forgotten railcard incident, assuming the OP hadn’t forgotten/been unable to show a railcard at some time previously in the last 12 months. But WMT may try to take a different view on that, and the forgotten railcard policy isn’t a clear cut bar to prosecution (though it should be).

 

[moongirlblue]

Presumably the practical difficulty is that WMT may threaten to prosecute at least for the occurrence where the railcard couldn’t be shown, if they don’t get whatever payment they request.

I think that would be improper, and this one event should be treated as a forgotten railcard incident, assuming the OP hadn’t forgotten/been unable to show a railcard at some time previously in the last 12 months. But WMT may try to take a different view on that, and the forgotten railcard policy isn’t a clear cut bar to prosecution (though it should be).

Thanks for your reply.
Can they still prosecute even if I provided a valid railcard for the day I was reported?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s not up to you to retrospectively prove you had the correct ticket/s or railcard. Tell them you are unable to supply proof for the reasons you gave in your opening post. They likely don’t have evidence for either RoRA or Fraud prosecutions although they may still prosecute you for the single offence you were caught red handed.

To support this with some rather different reasoning: the threat that the railway has over you for previous journeys is that they might prosecute you for not paying the right fare on those journeys - because if they can't prosecute you, why should you bother paying them to go away and stop bothering you?

The railway normally uses one of two pieces of legislation to prosecute for not paying the right fare: railway byelaw 18 (and in some circumstances byelaw 17), or the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. But prosecutions under these acts have to be started within six months of when the fare was dodged*.

So for anything more than six months ago, the 'usual' charges aren't available to the railway. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore anything older than that: instead, the railway can charge you for committing fraud, which (again see * below) there is no time limit on them starting a prosecution.

But against that, in a charge for fraud, the railway (the prosecutor) has to show that they are right 'beyond reasonable doubt'. This isn't quite the same as showing that there's no other possible explanation, but it's fairly close - and if the railway do choose to prosecute you, then that's good news - because it's up to them to show that you didn't have a railcard, rather than for you to show that you did.

So does this mean you can ignore the railway when they're asking for repayment for more than six months ago, just because they think you didn't have a railcard and you think you did? Probably not. At the very least, you should try and engage constructively, explaining that while you did have a railcard at the time, you have not kept it as you did not see any need to prove some years down the line that you had rightly bought discounted train tickets. BUt you should be prepared for the railway to take you to court. If they do that, then you will need to go to court, and plead not guilty - and you will also need to ask the court to get the railway to prove that you didn't have a railcard. That can be done - but it's not easy and it will be stressful.

So be firm with the railway - but be aware that it may be a difficult road that you are taking.

*I think this is a slight simplification, and those with more knowledge will no doubt be along shortly to give the absolutely correct position. But I hope it's near enough for the moment.

 

[moongirlblue]

As far as I know I could be fined for not showing my railcard when asked. I am okay with that - but having to pay for full cost tickets for up to 5 years will be a financial drain . I don’t even know how I will do that .

 

[AlterEgo]

As far as I know I could be fined for not showing my railcard when asked. I am okay with that - but having to pay for full cost tickets for up to 5 years will be a financial drain . I don’t even know how I will do that .

You don’t understand; they’ll prosecute you for that single criminal offence in the magistrates’ court. You don’t want that either. It’ll cost you hundreds of pounds.

 

[moongirlblue]

To support this with some rather different reasoning: the threat that the railway has over you for previous journeys is that they might prosecute you for not paying the right fare on those journeys - because if they can't prosecute you, why should you bother paying them to go away and stop bothering you?

The railway normally uses one of two pieces of legislation to prosecute for not paying the right fare: railway byelaw 18 (and in some circumstances byelaw 17), or the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. But prosecutions under these acts have to be started within six months of when the fare was dodged*.

So for anything more than six months ago, the 'usual' charges aren't available to the railway. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore anything older than that: instead, the railway can charge you for committing fraud, which (again see * below) there is no time limit on them starting a prosecution.

But against that, in a charge for fraud, the railway (the prosecutor) has to show that they are right 'beyond reasonable doubt'. This isn't quite the same as showing that there's no other possible explanation, but it's fairly close - and if the railway do choose to prosecute you, then that's good news - because it's up to them to show that you didn't have a railcard, rather than for you to show that you did.

So does this mean you can ignore the railway when they're asking for repayment for more than six months ago, just because they think you didn't have a railcard and you think you did? Probably not. At the very least, you should try and engage constructively, explaining that while you did have a railcard at the time, you have not kept it as you did not see any need to prove some years down the line that you had rightly bought discounted train tickets. BUt you should be prepared for the railway to take you to court. If they do that, then you will need to go to court, and plead not guilty - and you will also need to ask the court to get the railway to prove that you didn't have a railcard. That can be done - but it's not easy and it will be stressful.

So be firm with the railway - but be aware that it may be a difficult road that you are taking.

*I think this is a slight simplification, and those with more knowledge will no doubt be along shortly to give the absolutely correct position. But I hope it's near enough for the moment.

Thanks for your detailed reply. I really do not want to go to court. But paying up 5 years of full ticket fares is daunting as well. This is the reply I sent to the last email I received from them.


Dear Fraud Team,

Thanks for your email. May I request why I am being asked to provide evidence, please?
As per your first email, I was reported on x/x/23 for not having a railcard during my travel.
This is true, as I was unable to show my railcard because my phone had died. As you can see in the attachment of my previous email, I have a railcard that was valid for the day I was reported. Based on this information, I think it would be fair to agree I was not partaking in wrongdoing like purchasing tickets I was not entitled to buy. As far as I am aware, being unable to show my railcard on x/x/23 is the only issue in regards to my travel conduct. However - if there are other instances where I was deemed to not carry a railcard, I'd be grateful if you can point it out to me.
Another point I would like to add is that my previous railcards were not purchased by me. They were purchased by family members as I was a student at the time. As mentioned in my previous email, my old railcards were physical railcards. Although I cannot remember how they were purchased, I am almost certain it was not purchased on the trainline app. I'm sure you can agree that finding evidence for previous railcards that date back to 5/6 years ago, is not only time-consuming but also difficult. Not only do I think it is a lot to expect me to provide this information in 1 week, I also think it is unfair that I am assumed to engage in wrongdoing when I have provided evidence indicating otherwise. As mentioned, to my knowledge the report filed on x/x/23 is the only instance where I was accused of wrongdoing. I hope you will consider what I have to say. However, (as I mentioned) if you feel I am mistaken in what I have stated, I would greatly appreciate being made aware of that.

Many thanks,

 

[AlterEgo]

Can I still be prosecuted if I provided a valid railcard for the day I was reported ?

Yes.

 

[moongirlblue]

.

Yes.

Okay. Do you know on what basis they can prosecute me? I’d be grateful if you can list the relevant laws/legislation that would apply in this case .

 

[Gloster]

I may have misunderstood something.

On the occasion several months ago when you were unable to show your railcard, did you already own a railcard, i.e. one purchased before you started the journey during which you were stopped. Was it then case of possesing a valid railcard, but not being able to show it (due to ‘phone problems or leaving a physical card at home) or did you not possess a valid card at all on this occasion.

 

[moongirlblue]

I may have misunderstood something.

On the occasion several months ago when you were unable to show your railcard, did you already own a railcard, i.e. one purchased before you started the journey during which you were stopped. Was it then case of possesing a valid railcard, but not being able to show it (due to ‘phone problems or leaving a physical card at home) or did you not possess a valid card at all on this occasion.

It was the former. Which is why I emailed the fraud team with the date that my railcard was issued and the date it would expire.

 

[Brissle Girl]

.


Okay. Do you know on what basis they can prosecute me? I’d be grateful if you can list the relevant laws/legislation that would apply in this case .

It should be very simple. You weren't able to produce a valid ticket (including supporting documentation - ie your railcard) when asked.

However, the rail industry has a protocol that people are "allowed" to forget a railcard once in every 12 months, provided they subsequently produce evidence of it (which you have, subject to @Gloster's question above. Why the matter isn't ending there, I don't know. In a court, your defence would have to be that whilst you accept that you didn't have a valid ticket for the reasons given, you don't understand why the protocol the railway has for such instances is not being followed.

 

[moongirlblue]

It should be very simple. You weren't able to produce a valid ticket (including supporting documentation - ie your railcard) when asked.

However, the rail industry has a protocol that people are "allowed" to forget a railcard once in every 12 months, provided they subsequently produce evidence of it (which you have, subject to @Gloster's question above. Why the matter isn't ending there, I don't know. In a court, your defence would have to be that whilst you accept that you didn't have a valid ticket for the reasons given, you don't understand why the protocol the railway has for such instances is not being followed.

That’s what concerns me too. Based on the emails they sent already, is there reason to believe they might have some evidence against me
that they are not disclosing? Why would they insist on making me pay for up to 5 years of train fares when I was able to provide a valid railcard for the 1 time I reported ?

 

[jupiter]

What happens if I forget my Railcard?
Your Railcard must be carried on each journey for which it has been used to purchase a discounted ticket. If you forget your Railcard, you will be liable (as now) to buy a new ticket or a Penalty Fare.
However, if it is the first occasion in a 12 month period on which this has happened you should contact our Customer Relations team . Include a copy of your original ticket, your Railcard (which must have been valid at the time of travel) and the new ticket you purchased.

(From West Midlands Trains own website)

Tickets FAQs

Browse FAQs on buying and collecting train tickets, group bookings and managing your online account.

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Their own website says this is a penalty fare or buy a new ticket?? This has more than a whiff of the post office about it.

 

[Haywain]

They were purchased by family members as I was a student at the time.

Have you asked the family members if they have any relevant evidence of making these purchases?

As mentioned in my previous email, my old railcards were physical railcards. Although I cannot remember how they were purchased, I am almost certain it was not purchased on the trainline app.

If they were not purchased online it is important to say so. WMT are clearly making an assumption that they have been bought online and that you would be able to find details of those previous railcards by logging into your account(s) on the relevant site(s).

 

[jeremyjh]

It was the latter. Which is why I emailed the fraud team with the date that my railcard was issued and the date it would expire.

Sorry, this is an important point and the previous question (and therefore answer) are unclear.

Did you purchase the railcard before, or after, the time at which you were asked to show the railcard?

 

[moongirlblue]

Sorry, this is an important point and the previous question (and therefore answer) are unclear.

Did you purchase the railcard before, or after, the time at which you were asked to show the railcard?

It was purchased before being asked to show it, but on the same date. Does the timing of when I bought it matter? Or is the date more important?

Have you asked the family members if they have any relevant evidence of making these purchases?

If they were not purchased online it is important to say so. WMT are clearly making an assumption that they have been bought online and that you would be able to find details of those previous railcards by logging into your account(s) on the relevant site(s).

I have asked them to look into it.
They can’t promise anything, but I’m hoping I can find some proof.

 

[Elecman]

It was purchased before being asked to show it, but on the same date. Does the timing of when I bought it matter? Or is the date more important?

The time you purchased it is important if it was after you boarded the train then your ticket wasn’t valid

 

[Brissle Girl]

It was purchased before being asked to show it, but on the same date. Does the timing of when I bought it matter? Or is the date more important?

Before or after you boarded the train? If after, you boarded the train without a valid ticket and commited an offence.

 

[moongirlblue]

If they were not purchased online it is important to say so. WMT are clearly making an assumption that they have been bought online and that you would be able to find details of those previous railcards by logging into your account(s) on the relevant site(s).

I highlighted this point to WMT in the last 2 emails I sent them. I told them
they were physical railcards.

 

[Haywain]

I highlighted this point to WMT in the last 2 emails I sent them. I told them
they were physical railcards.

Physical railcards can still be bought online. Were they paper or plastic?

 

[moongirlblue]

The time you purchased it is important if it was after you boarded the train then your ticket wasn’t valid

Before or after you boarded the train? If after, you boarded the train without a valid ticket and commited an offence.

It was bought before boarding. How would they be able to determine the time though? Since it was bought on the same date that I was reported?

Physical railcards can still be bought online. Were they paper or plastic?

If you check my earlier posts, it was not bought online. Most likely bought in the ticket office at the station. And they were plastic.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was the latter. Which is why I emailed the fraud team with the date that my railcard was issued and the date it would expire.

So at the time of the stop, you did not have a railcard at all, right? That is what "latter" means in this situation.

 

[moongirlblue]

So at the time of the stop, you did not have a railcard at all, right? That is what "latter" means in this situation.

Apologies for the confusion. The anxiety is making my brain foggy. I meant former - so at the time when I was stopped 1) my phone was dead so I was unable to show my railcard but 2) I had a railcard that was valid on that day, and 3) It was bought before the journey on the same date.

 

[jeremyjh]

It was bought before boarding. How would they be able to determine the time though? Since it was bought on the same date that I was reported?


If you check my earlier posts, it was not bought online. Most likely bought in the ticket office at the station. And they were plastic.

For a digital railcard, they’d have the details of the transaction used to buy it.

The relevance is: their behaviour/approach is more what you might expect if the railcard produced *wasn’t* valid at the time of the journey.