Digital Fraud Team

[hgabrovski]

Hello all, I got contacted by digital fraud team. It says that submitting a delay repay claim for a journey you have not made would constitute an offence under the fraud act 2006, if found guilty this can lead to a criminal conviction. They are undertaking a full and thorough investigation, this is your opportunity to support that investigation by providing relevant information to support the claims identified. This is a serious situation, please do not ignore this letter.

I have a season ticket that travels from Bletchley to euston, i have been claiming refunds at least 2 journey as i was told i am eligible for such refunds. I sent a reply already saying that I am willing to pay any settlement to whatever fees I need to pay just not to escalate but they havent responded yet. I am just worried that I may be prosecuted. Do I need to contact a solicitor as early as now?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have a season ticket that travels from Bletchley to euston, i have been claiming refunds at least 2 journey as i was told i am eligible for such refunds. I sent a reply already saying that I am willing to pay any settlement to whatever fees I need to pay just not to escalate but they havent responded yet. I am just worried that I may be prosecuted. Do I need to contact a solicitor as early as now?

@hgabrovski. Welcome to the forum.

The bit that I don't quite follow is why would you say that you're willing to pay some settlement or fees unless you have perhaps inappropriately claimed 'Delay Repay' or a refund, on one, or more occasions, when you were not actually entitled to do so? That might seem (to some) to be tantamount to an admission of wrongdoing.

Can you upload a copy of the letter that you have received from the rail company? Please be sure to cover up your name and address and any case reference number? Also, a copy of your initial response(s) to date.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have a season ticket that travels from Bletchley to euston, i have been claiming refunds at least 2 journey

At least two journeys? In total? Per week? Per day? Do these bear any relation to the journeys you’ve actually taken?

as i was told i am eligible for such refunds

By whom?

 

[hgabrovski]

This is the email they sent

At least two journeys? In total? Per week? Per day? Do these bear any relation to the journeys you’ve actually taken? Roughly around 6-8 claims a week. Some of them are the ones that I did journey in to and some of them are i just search it online to which has delayed.

By whom? I called the hotline number that deals with delay repay and i was told yes i am entitled but as long as it wont exceed the maximum daily cap

At least two journeys? In total? Per week? Per day? Do these bear any relation to the journeys you’ve actually taken?

By whom?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess they're alleging that the OP claimed Delay Repay for trains they didn't travel on, i.e. looking at Realtime Trains or similar for delayed trains and submitting for those ones.

I have noticed the gateline at Bletchley in use most of the time of late, which means they probably check against when it was staffed and consider that a lack of scan for large numbers of claims is suspicious.

 

[AlterEgo]

Essentially you’ve been defrauding them then, no two ways about it. There is no way anyone told you that you could *claim for journeys you didn’t take*. You have correctly decided to try and settle, because you know that what you did is wrong. Searching for delayed trains online is as old as online train running information and the entry level of delay repay scams.

This is fraud, a serious criminal offence where, if it was pretty much any other industry involved, you’d have the police round and they would arrest you. At the moment you should calculate how much you’ve defrauded them out of, set that sum aside, plus £100-200 for their costs, and wait to see what they say back. They will probably settle once they have ascertained exactly how much money you defrauded them out of.

 

[hgabrovski]

There are times that they dont check the tickets. And since i am on seasoned ticket i just show them my card and they will let me pass. At the moment, i cannot confirm the claims that i actually travelled to as most of them are beyond 2 months already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are times that they dont check the tickets. And since i am on seasoned ticket i just show them my card and they will let me pass. At the moment, i cannot confirm the claims that i actually travelled to as most of them are beyond 2 months already.

In that case you'll probably need to plan to repay all of your claims.

 

[hgabrovski]

Essentially you’ve been defrauding them then, no two ways about it. There is no way anyone told you that you could *claim for journeys you didn’t take*. You have correctly decided to try and settle, because you know that what you did is wrong. Searching for delayed trains online is as old as online train running information and the entry level of delay repay scams.

This is fraud, a serious criminal offence where, if it was pretty much any other industry involved, you’d have the police round and they would arrest you. At the moment you should calculate how much you’ve defrauded them out of, set that sum aside, plus £100-200 for their costs, and wait to see what they say back. They will probably settle once they have ascertained exactly how much money you defrauded them out of.

yes they did not mention that i am eligible to claim for journeys that i didnt take but that i was just hoping if it can be approved but if they will reject it i wouldnt mind it. I said that i am willing to pay any settlement dues but still waiting for their response. Am i going to be arrested even if im going to pay?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are times that they dont check the tickets. And since i am on seasoned ticket i just show them my card and they will let me pass. At the moment, i cannot confirm the claims that i actually travelled to as most of them are beyond 2 months already.

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode...do gatelines record details of e.g. the ticket number of paper seasons which could be reconciled against the database of holders?

Unless they just flag anyone who makes claims on very random trains given that almost all commuters are creatures of habit.

yes they did not mention that i am eligible to claim for journeys that i didnt take but that i was just hoping if it can be approved but if they will reject it i wouldnt mind it. I said that i am willing to pay any settlement dues but still waiting for their response. Am i going to be arrested even if im going to pay?

There is likely to be an opportunity to settle for a sum which is ilkely to be the repayment of all of the disputed claims plus an admin fee of £100-200. If this is paid you will not be taken to Court. This assumes you engage honestly and apologetically with the process and they are satisfied you won't do it again.

 

[hgabrovski]

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode...do gatelines record details of e.g. the ticket number of paper seasons which could be reconciled against the database of holders?

Unless they just flag anyone who makes claims on very random trains given that almost all commuters are creatures of habit.

I dont think they could record details for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dont think they could record details for that.

They've clearly recorded something.

 

[hgabrovski]

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode...do gatelines record details of e.g. the ticket number of paper seasons which could be reconciled against the database of holders?

Unless they just flag anyone who makes claims on very random trains given that almost all commuters are creatures of habit.



There is likely to be an opportunity to settle for a sum which is ilkely to be the repayment of all of the disputed claims plus an admin fee of £100-200. If this is paid you will not be taken to Court. This assumes you engage honestly and apologetically with the process and they are satisfied you won't do it again.

Yes i said it on my email at first instance that it was an honest mistake that i was told that i am eligible as i have a colleague thats doing it as well. I did say that i am willing to pay the settlement dues and will not do it again. Hopefully they will agree with this and not to escalate to court.

They've clearly recorded something.

Probably since they are able to flag it up.

 

[Titfield]

It is difficult to believe that you were told that you could claim delay repay for journeys which you have not taken. I would try to avoid the expression honest mistake as I doubt it would be seen in that light.

You need to create a complete listing of all the journeys you have taken and all the delay repay events you have claimed for so that you can submit it to the TOC or at least be able to compare it to the list that they will be compiling from whatever records they have been able to make.

You will then need to write a very carefully worded letter based on the advice which @Hadders usually gives in these circumstances.

 

[hgabrovski]

I am happy to follow all your advices and will create a listing of these said fraudulent claims. Is there a way to contact @Hadders so he could help me out and correct my mistakes?

 

[skyhigh]

I am happy to follow all your advices and will create a listing of these said fraudulent claims. Is there a way to contact @Hadders so he could help me out and correct my mistakes?

They will post on here when they see the thread if they feel they have anything useful to contribute.

 

[hgabrovski]

Thank you so much everyone for the very insightful responses. Im just really worried that i will be arrested as that would impact my income and would greatly affect my family.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you so much everyone for the very insightful responses. Im just really worried that i will be arrested as that would impact my income and would greatly affect my family.

If you engage with the process and pay the settlement requested you are very unlikely to be arrested.

 

[hgabrovski]

I did and am willing to pay the dues. This is just affecting my mental health at the moment and couldn’t function properly at work. Hopefully they will get back to me sooner so this will be over. Appreciate all the help everyone.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to pick up on a few points:

- @Hadders will probably be along shortly now that various people (including you and me) have tagged them in this thread. But have a look at various other threads: you'll see that Hadders' excellent advice comes up quite often.
- if you have been claiming money back from the railway, but the record on your railway account doesn't go far enough back, then try your bank or credit card statements: they should show the money back that you received.
- you don't say when you wrote back to the railway so we don't know how long they have had to reply. But it looks like you have been doing this quite a lot, so the railway may want to spend some time deciding what to do.

 

[Iskra]

I think some more information is needed here.

We need to know what you are specifically accused of and what you have admitted. How many instances have you done this? What evidence are they likely to have on you? They really need to prove that you were not on the trains in question, which can be difficult (until you admitted it).

 

[MrJeeves]

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode...do gatelines record details of e.g. the ticket number of paper seasons which could be reconciled against the database of holders?

Cubic gatelines don't record paper ticket usage other than locally and temporarily for pass-back prevention, as far as I'm aware. Only ITSO and Aztec barcode usage is stored for any real period of time. I might be wrong though. Perhaps WMT have invested in some upgrades to transmit paper ticket usage to a centralised database. (Though I doubt it!)

And since i am on seasoned ticket i just show them my card and they will let me pass

"card" makes me think that it might not be a paper season ticket, though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cubic gatelines don't record paper ticket usage other than locally and temporarily for pass-back prevention, as far as I'm aware. Only ITSO and Aztec barcode usage is stored for any real period of time. I might be wrong though. Perhaps WMT have invested in some upgrades to transmit paper ticket usage to a centralised database. (Though I doubt it!)

"card" makes me think that it might not be a paper season ticket, though?

Ah, if it's a smartcard they'll definitely know if it's been tapped or not around the time of the claims. Gatelines aren't open all the time and Euston doesn't do revenue on LNR services that aren't on 8-11 except random stings, but a season ticket holder will travel often enough to build up a picture. Plus there might be taps in that render the claimed journey impossible, e.g. tapping in at Bletchley when the claim was for a train that was already on the way to Euston.

 

[Benjwri]

Ah, if it's a smartcard they'll definitely know if it's been tapped or not around the time of the claims. Gatelines aren't open all the time and Euston doesn't do revenue on LNR services that aren't on 8-11 except random stings, but a season ticket holder will travel often enough to build up a picture. Plus there might be taps in that render the claimed journey impossible, e.g. tapping in at Bletchley when the claim was for a train that was already on the way to Euston.

It’ll likely be ITSO taps I would assume. Taking that and as you mention a picture of when someone is travelling, vs their Delay Repay times and how variable they are.

As I understand it WMT(WMR/LNWR) have a dedicated digital fraud team now, which is currently in the process of cracking down on fraudulent delay repay claims and refunds.

 

[172007]

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode...do gatelines record details of e.g. the ticket number of paper seasons which could be reconciled against the database of holders?

Unless they just flag anyone who makes claims on very random trains given that almost all commuters are creatures of habit.



There is likely to be an opportunity to settle for a sum which is ilkely to be the repayment of all of the disputed claims plus an admin fee of £100-200. If this is paid you will not be taken to Court. This assumes you engage honestly and apologetically with the process and they are satisfied you won't do it again.

Are commuters these days creatures of habit, especially with cancellations and working from home. Many go to work on random days as they have been called in. Some go home early to finish at home once the meeting or activity is concluded and with the amount of cancellations passengers are often getting different timed trains and sometime on different routes in. I know what you mean but this is post covid and the pre covid travel patterns of dame train AM and PM for months if mot years on end have long have long gone I would have thought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are commuters these days creatures of habit, especially with cancellations and working from home. Many go to work on random days as they have been called in. Some go home early to finish at home once the meeting or activity is concluded and with the amount of cancellations passengers are often getting different timed trains and sometime on different routes in. I know what you mean but this is post covid and the pre covid travel patterns of dame train AM and PM for months if mot years on end have long have long gone I would have thought.

What commuters don't do is specifically pick out delayed/cancelled trains and submit delay repay claims for them. It's probably more that they've noticed that the OP's travel pattern does not fit with those claims, or those claims were such that it would have been physically impossible to be on that train based on a tap in at another location.

Things are less consistent than they were, yes, but there are still patterns of usage that can be analysed. If the taps are always for the 0700 one way and the 1834 the other and the claims are utterly random, that's a big red flag.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It’ll likely be ITSO taps I would assume. Taking that and as you mention a picture of when someone is travelling, vs their Delay Repay times and how variable they are.

As I understand it WMT(WMR/LNWR) have a dedicated digital fraud team now, which is currently in the process of cracking down on fraudulent delay repay claims and refunds.

There are a number of season tickets on WMR/LNWR that are digital, mostly on the West Mids and up to Stafford but are being seen on Trent services too so may not be ITSO.

Yes, very active team now with some huge numbers outstanding to date. I know there are 2 currently being investigated that are 5 figure sums for fraudulent refunds so the OP certainly needs to be open with the process.

 

[island]

Of course, a season wouldn't have a barcode

Barcode season tickets exist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barcode season tickets exist.

Ah yes, I had tried to forget the dual evils of bog roll and the terrible S ticket format.

It's not likely someone from Bletchley would have the former, though, unless sold it by a guard on the Marston Vale on the very rare occasion of a Bletchley guard bothering doing tickets. But even then I think WMT guards' ticket machines issue CCST.

Might be an S ticket I suppose.

 

[fandroid]

I'm not sure that we've got a clear idea that the OP has been putting in false claims. They sound as if they've been badly scared by the letter. They wouldn't be the first one we've seen who is frightened of anything official like that, is utterly confused, wants it to go away, and would rather pay something to make that happen.