Direct Aberdeen to Penzance cheaper than services with changes

[trainophile]

Following on from the XC refreshments thread, it got me looking on Trainsplit to double check that the direct XC service Aberdeen to Penzance that we booked for June the other day is what I intended to book. Luckily it is, but I now notice there are two other journeys ABD-PNZ on offer, that depart at the same 08:20 time and reach destination at the same 21:31 time. One involves changing at Haymarket and Birmingham New Street, the other has three changes, being Haymarket, New Street and Cheltenham Spa. The curious thing is that it appears the more changes involved, the dearer the ticket price! Also the two journeys with changes only have a very few tickets left in 1st for our date, whereas there's plenty on the direct one.

I appreciate that most people will only be travelling for part of the route, and some will require stops on the WCML which the direct service doesn't touch, so presumably this partly explains the price variance. The other thing I can't get my head around is we start and end on the same train, but there are connection waits of ~an hour on the two indirect services, yet the itineraries still manage to "catch up" with the original train by Cheltenham Spa.

I'm sure it's perfectly obvious, although there seems to be only two more stops on the direct route than on the one with two changes, and the same number (40) on the one with three changes. I can't get my head around how they manage to get the start/end timings the same with the additional hour of connection waits. What am I overlooking?

 

[InOban]

That it's much quicker to travel by the WCML from Edinburgh to Birmingham than by the ECML via Newcastle. About an hour quicker.

 

[trainophile]

That it's much quicker to travel by the WCML from Edinburgh to Birmingham than by the ECML via Newcastle. About an hour quicker.

So it would appear. Bit of an eye-opener that!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So it would appear. Bit of an eye-opener that!

XC Scotland-South West trains used to run through using the faster WCML route to Birmingham, with diesels under the wires.
In about 2007 those services were split at Birmingham and handed to Virgin/Avanti, leaving XC to run only on the longer route via York.
Today, those WCML trains form Edinburgh-Birmingham-Euston Pendolino services.

 

[JonathanH]

The curious thing is that it appears the more changes involved, the dearer the ticket price!

Travelling all the way with one operator is often cheaper for a through journey, because the through tickets may not be available at the lowest price on the second operator.

 

[Traveller54]

Travelling all the way with one operator is often cheaper for a through journey, because the through tickets may not be available at the lowest price on the second operator.

This could explain why I once noticed, on a XC from Glasgow, a seat had been booked all the way to Plymouth, when it would probably have been quicker to go with (then) Virgin trains on the WCML with changes. I assumed the passenger just didn’t want the hassle of changing trains.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

This could explain why I once noticed, on a XC from Glasgow, a seat had been booked all the way to Plymouth, when it would probably have been quicker to go with (then) Virgin trains on the WCML with changes. I assumed the passenger just didn’t want the hassle of changing trains.

On several occasions I caught the 10:00 Virgin WC service from Glasgow Central to Birmingham New Street; changed at New Street and boarded the 07:50 XC Glasgow - Plymouth to go to Bristol!

Some people, especially elderly or infirm are quite happy to spend the additional 130mins and go via the world if it means they don't have to change trains.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Don’t have to be elderly or infirm, I think most people would rather take the direct train. I certainly would.

 

[Somewhere]

The fewer trains that are involved, the less likely something is to go wrong

 

[tiptoptaff]

Don’t have to be elderly or infirm, I think most people would rather take the direct train. I certainly would.

For me it depends on the time penalty. In the above example, I'd happily change trains to save 2hrs

 

[QueensCurve]

Don’t have to be elderly or infirm, I think most people would rather take the direct train. I certainly would.

This illustrates that the railway has lost the word "through". Glasgow to Penzance via Edinburgh etc is a through train, but it is not, in the traditional sense, remotely "direct". I think we have aviation to blame!

 

[wilbers]

This illustrates that the railway has lost the word "through". Glasgow to Penzance via Edinburgh etc is a through train, but it is not, in the traditional sense, remotely "direct". I think we have aviation to blame!

Well, it is vastly easier to have a straight line route in the sky than on the ground. Also the aircraft doesn't stop at a multitude (or in most cases any) places en-route.

 

[MrJeeves]

Travelling all the way with one operator is often cheaper for a through journey, because the through tickets may not be available at the lowest price on the second operator.

Also worth mentioning that with single TOC advances, the TOC gets all the revenue, but with changes and cross-London legs and whatever else, they have to share it with many other TOCs and would end up with a smaller share too.

CrossCountry also seem to have some of the best savings from split ticketing in my experience, which helps here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, it is vastly easier to have a straight line route in the sky than on the ground. Also the aircraft doesn't stop at a multitude (or in most cases any) places en-route.

Direct flights may have a stop en-route! As long as the flight number remains the same it is a direct flight.

 

[Taunton]

As was long found in pre-nationalisation days, it is more revenue worthwhile for an operator to keep the revenue wholly for themselves, even on an indirect routing, than to share it with another. I presume a fully "open" ticket from Glasgow to Bristol etc would be allocated by Orcats mostly to Avanti and a lesser amount to Cross Country. Offering it for a bit less just on your own operator allows you to keep all the revenue for yourself.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Avanti appears to set fares from Glasgow to Bristol and on to Totnes, XC sets fares to Plymouth and beyond.
From Edinburgh, XC sets fares to Cheltenham and beyond, and both XC and Avanti have fares to Birmingham.
From memory it took quite a while for XC fares to be removed from Avanti flows after the separation of the franchises (both Virgin initially).
Among other things, XC forces the blanket "not before 0930" off-peak time restriction which is not the same on Avanti.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Don’t have to be elderly or infirm, I think most people would rather take the direct train. I certainly would.

In the case of such a long journey I would seriously be thinking about changing trains just to get a chance to stretch my legs properly.

 

[lachlan]

I've done Bristol to Aberdeen by train several times but never via the direct CrossCountry as it usually comes out more expensive than splitting tickets. Interesting to hear that it may now be cheaper but I'd probably still split my journey to stretch my legs. Also in my experience CrossCountry has a lot of padding in the timetable so I'm more likely to get delay repay if I go a different route

Well, it is vastly easier to have a straight line route in the sky than on the ground. Also the aircraft doesn't stop at a multitude (or in most cases any) places en-route.

Indeed though the CrossCountry route seems particularly circuitous and alow

 

[Taunton]

In the case of such a long journey I would seriously be thinking about changing trains just to get a chance to stretch my legs properly.

Back in BR days it was often suggested, given there was no hoopla about reserved seats being compulsory, to drop back by an hour at Birmingham New Street and go out and get something to eat along the way. It also used to suit some journeys which otherwise needed more than one change.

Avanti appears to set fares from Glasgow to Bristol and on to Totnes, XC sets fares to Plymouth and beyond.
From Edinburgh, XC sets fares to Cheltenham and beyond, and both XC and Avanti have fares to Birmingham.
From memory it took quite a while for XC fares to be removed from Avanti flows after the separation of the franchises (both Virgin initially).
Among other things, XC forces the blanket "not before 0930" off-peak time restriction which is not the same on Avanti.

As I understand it, fares may be defined by a given operator, but the proportions by which it is split between operators are defined by Orcats, and are the same percentages regardless.

 

[FtoE]

It’s not only the potential faff of changing trains.
I bumped into a friend at Inverness station meeting her parents off the Chieftan from KX. She was taking them back down to Fort William. Apparently they were uneasy about changing in Glasgow (TBF that obvs also means changing station) but were also uneasy about getting off in Kingussie - which is not only 20 miles nearer FW but would mean a 40 minute shorter journey, they just wanted to get off at their leisure at the terminus….
Each to their own, I suppose.

 

[bleeder4]

It’s not only the potential faff of changing trains.
I bumped into a friend at Inverness station meeting her parents off the Chieftan from KX. She was taking them back down to Fort William. Apparently they were uneasy about changing in Glasgow (TBF that obvs also means changing station) but were also uneasy about getting off in Kingussie - which is not only 20 miles nearer FW but would mean a 40 minute shorter journey, they just wanted to get off at their leisure at the terminus….
Each to their own, I suppose.

The other advantage of doing that of course is the scenic drive along the A82 down the entire length of Loch Ness. Plenty of picnic spots along the way to take some photos, take in the views etc.

 

[FtoE]

The other advantage of doing that of course is the scenic drive along the A82 down the entire length of Loch Ness. Plenty of picnic spots along the way to take some photos, take in the views etc.

Unfortunately it was the winter and so completely dark!

 

[Travelmonkey]

Split tickets and advances definitely are a fortune saver for a June adventure I've saved over £100 by risking advanced and split tickets, although on a similar vibe to this post is my return journey Kingston>Litchfied was much cheaper changing at Clapham & Watford Junctions as well as new street rather than going to LTV, although I do worry I only have a 10 min connection time at Watford Junction for a avanti service.

How would Orcats split my £17.15 across the 4 TOCs (SWR>Southern>Avanti>WMT)

 

[Gonzoiku]

Direct flights may have a stop en-route! As long as the flight number remains the same it is a direct flight.

Indeed, the late, lamented NZ1/2. Direct from Heathrow to Auckland. But....


... with a stopover in Los Angeles, where it was obligatory to disembark, go through US immigration and then go through security to retrieve your seats on the same aircraft. And if you think that security at Luton / Gatwick / You-name-it is bad, you need to experience Los Angeles!

"Lamented"? Yes, ANZ cabin crew are something special, as was the Skycouch*.

GZ

* Perhaps someone has done a YouTube review!

The other advantage of doing that of course is the scenic drive along the A82 down the entire length of Loch Ness. Plenty of picnic spots along the way to take some photos, take in the views etc.

Some would say that the A86 from Kingussie past Loch Laggan and on through Glen Spean to Spean Bridge (unless you pick up the train at Tulloch!) is at least the equal scenically, and a far more pleasant drive than the hated A82!

GZ

 

[robbeech]

CrossCountry also seem to have some of the best savings from split ticketing in my experience, which helps here.

In my experience this is really only because they have some of the highest fares to start with.

 

[riceuten]

Don’t have to be elderly or infirm, I think most people would rather take the direct train. I certainly would.

It also depends on the closeness of the connection timewise, whether it's a cross platform connection, and the amount of baggage you're lugging. I've also avoided changes where I know one of the trains will be rammed and my reserved seat will be purely theoretical.

 

[yorkie]

Split tickets and advances definitely are a fortune saver for a June adventure I've saved over £100 by risking advanced and split tickets, ...

What do you mean by risk?

although on a similar vibe to this post is my return journey Kingston>Litchfied was much cheaper changing at Clapham & Watford Junctions as well as new street rather than going to LTV, although I do worry I only have a 10 min connection time at Watford Junction for a avanti service.

If you want to decrease your chances of a delay, you could specify additional interchange time at WFJ.

How would Orcats split my £17.15 across the 4 TOCs (SWR>Southern>Avanti>WMT)

Each would be allocated individually.

 

[norbitonflyer]

What do you mean by risk? (Split or advance)

As opposed to an open ticket - you risk a missed connection, or simply having to change your plans.

 

[Watershed]

As opposed to an open ticket - you risk a missed connection, or simply having to change your plans.

The only way that a missed connection carries additional risk with splits is if you are connecting onto a service where the calling pattern varies, and you have split at a station that not all trains call at.

But even then, if the delay by waiting for the next valid service is more than an hour, under the PRO you're entitled to require the relevant operator to re-route you to your final destination at the earliest opportunity. If they fail or refuse to do this, you can buy a new ticket as required to do so and then recover this from the operator afterwards.

 

[yorkie]

As opposed to an open ticket - you risk a missed connection

An "open" ticket has the same "risk" of missing a connection.

or simply having to change your plans.

You would have the same potential to have to change your plans if cancellations or delays occur, regardless of the ticket(s) held.