Disabled woman has ENCTS pass withdrawn

[Bayum]

Allegedly the woman who suffers from Parkinson's was boarding a bus and the driver questioned her on her disability and her card before confiscating it as it was 'hot'.

Where legally do operators stand on this? When I received my ENCTS pass I was given a leaflet that explained I couldn't queue jump, but I also shouldn't be questioned regarding my disability by bus drivers. I understand that the driver was acting in such a way from the information that he had; is this a decision he is able to make himself?

Bristol disabled woman refused bus travel
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35478610

A woman who suffers from Parkinson's disease has been thrown off a bus, and had her disabled bus pass confiscated.


Janet Baker believes the driver thought she was drunk and had stolen the pass.

 

[Volvodart]

If the card is hot it means the card issuer has made this decision. It could be that the owner has 2 cards or something. She should have been given the option to pay for the journey though.

 

[yorkie]

She says the driver said the card was "hot-listed" but also says she thinks the driver reused her access for a completely different reason, so she's accusing the driver of lying.

I'm sure the company will be able to determine whether or not the card was listed or not.

If it wasn't, then obviously that's a very serious situation for the driver.

If it was, then the reason why it was listed would need to be investigated to see if it was correct or not.

Does each company have their own list, or is there a central list for each area, or a national list?

If the card was incorrectly hotlisted by a third party, that potentially puts the company withdrawing the card in a tricky situation. Who is liable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems odd that anyone is able to confiscate. Surely if it is "hot" it should simply be blocked. Just like a merchant has no right to retain a credit or debit card (though some think they do).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If the card is hot it means the card issuer has made this decision. It could be that the owner has 2 cards or something. She should have been given the option to pay for the journey though.

What? With cash??? (I am not being that provocative)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems odd that anyone is able to confiscate. Surely if it is "hot" it should simply be blocked. Just like a merchant has no right to retain a credit or debit card (though some think they do).

Depends on the terms and conditions of the pass as laid down by the issuing authority.

Shops are allowed to retain bank cards if they suspect fraud http://www.financialfraudaction.org.uk/retailer-fraud-advice-shops-stores.asp?pagecontent=5

 

[Volvodart]

What? With cash??? (I am not being that provocative)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Depends on the terms and conditions of the pass as laid down by the issuing authority.

Shops are allowed to retain bank cards if they suspect fraud http://www.financialfraudaction.org.uk/retailer-fraud-advice-shops-stores.asp?pagecontent=5

That is what Transport Scotland say

Remember you can only use your most recently issued National Entitlement Card on the bus. Any other cards will not work and you will not be allowed free bus travel

 

[cool110]

It seems odd that anyone is able to confiscate. Surely if it is "hot" it should simply be blocked. Just like a merchant has no right to retain a credit or debit card (though some think they do).

Merchants can be instructed by the issuing bank to retain a card, either by a message on the terminal or during a phone authorisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merchants can be instructed by the issuing bank to retain a card, either by a message on the terminal or during a phone authorisation.

Yes, TheGrandWazoo corrected me on this. I don't think this is a good thing, unless it is also a requirement for them to cut the card in half plus through the chip in front of the customer, as it opens up an avenue for an unscrupulous business to obtain a card under false pretences.

Ideally, in my view, the retailer should never handle a C&P or contactless card for any reason, which of course means they cannot retain it without assault (unless the customer handed it over voluntarily, which I would certainly not do without Police being called, as I do not trust the motives of anyone wishing for any reason to take my card out of my sight for any period of time).

 

[lightning76]

She says the driver said the card was "hot-listed"...

Does each company have their own list, or is there a central list for each area, or a national list?

If the card was incorrectly hotlisted by a third party, that potentially puts the company withdrawing the card in a tricky situation. Who is liable?

The LA issuing the card maintains the hotlist database, and by some means circulates this information to operators for them to enforce. I am not sure if it is automatic or not; I suspect not, so it would be unlikely for a hotlisted Devon pass to be flagged up as such in Yorkshire, for example.

If a pass is incorrectly hotlisted that would be a matter between the holder and the issuing Local Authority.

Drivers should not question passholders on the nature of their disability, or whether they have a disability or not. They may ask reasonable questions to determine what is going on with a pass. The most common reason for a pass to be hotlisted is because it has been reported lost or stolen - frequently the holder then discovers it down the back of the sofa, or in their other coat, or whatever, and recommences using it - the question "Have you reported a pass lost or stolen recently?" would be perfectly reasonable to ask.

A driver saying he/she suspected the pass was stolen, with no evidence to back this assertion up, would be on extremely dodgy ground, and if the intending passenger is drunk or suspected of being so, that is an entirely separate matter to be dealt with in its own right.

Since operators have no obligation to carry holders of hotlisted passes without payment, I have always fallen back on the good old attitude test. Possibly in this situation it was failed and the complainant has gone to the media with a lot of guff. Equally, the driver may have been an idiot. We are not in a position to know.

 

[deltic]

Arrangements for hotlisting vary - in the South West for example South West Smart Applications Ltd provides an ITSO Managed Service to 15 Travel Concession Authorities and more than 60 bus operators and manages the hotlist which is updated and uploaded on a daily basis. As lightening76 states a big problem is someone misplaces their pass - reports it lost gets issued with a new one but then finds the old one and goes back to using it. Before hotlisting less reputable people would claim to have lost their pass and then sell it on to a third party when they got their new one. Transport Scotland saw a large reduction in fraud once they moved over to smart cards for concessionary passes and introduced national hotlisting.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, TheGrandWazoo corrected me on this. I don't think this is a good thing, unless it is also a requirement for them to cut the card in half plus through the chip in front of the customer, as it opens up an avenue for an unscrupulous business to obtain a card under false pretences.

Ideally, in my view, the retailer should never handle a C&P or contactless card for any reason, which of course means they cannot retain it without assault (unless the customer handed it over voluntarily, which I would certainly not do without Police being called, as I do not trust the motives of anyone wishing for any reason to take my card out of my sight for any period of time).

To be honest, if I'd reported my card lost/stolen, I'd expect the bank to hotlist it asap and to ensure that if tendered, it was removed from circulation. What's worse - to give it back to a suspected fraudster?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The LA issuing the card maintains the hotlist database, and by some means circulates this information to operators for them to enforce. I am not sure if it is automatic or not; I suspect not, so it would be unlikely for a hotlisted Devon pass to be flagged up as such in Yorkshire, for example.

If a pass is incorrectly hotlisted that would be a matter between the holder and the issuing Local Authority.

Drivers should not question passholders on the nature of their disability, or whether they have a disability or not. They may ask reasonable questions to determine what is going on with a pass. The most common reason for a pass to be hotlisted is because it has been reported lost or stolen - frequently the holder then discovers it down the back of the sofa, or in their other coat, or whatever, and recommences using it - the question "Have you reported a pass lost or stolen recently?" would be perfectly reasonable to ask.

A driver saying he/she suspected the pass was stolen, with no evidence to back this assertion up, would be on extremely dodgy ground, and if the intending passenger is drunk or suspected of being so, that is an entirely separate matter to be dealt with in its own right.

Since operators have no obligation to carry holders of hotlisted passes without payment, I have always fallen back on the good old attitude test. Possibly in this situation it was failed and the complainant has gone to the media with a lot of guff. Equally, the driver may have been an idiot. We are not in a position to know.

And that is it in a nutshell!

As it is, the lady in question says it is a suspicion of hers (i.e. the driver thought her drunk) so difficult to determine.

 

[Busaholic]

I am afraid this seems to be an 'issue' which has been blown out of all proportion by certain companies within Firstgroup, perhaps as a result of a directive from higher up. An ex-employee of mine, aged 75 plus, was told a few months ago by a bus driver in Penzance that his pass was not 'recognised' and that the 'next time it happened' he'd have it taken off him and have to pay full fare! Knowing my interest in bus matters, I gave it a bit of research and found a statement on First Kernow's website which confirmed that, in certain circumstances, concessionary passes could become invalid, saying it was government action causing this, but I found it all a bit intemperate. The person affected has had no trouble since, so the fault was obviously with the bus ticket machine and/or the driver.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I can't speak for the English scheme but here in Wales a card could be blocked for a number of reasons... reported lost or stolen, person deemed no longer disabled etc. The information is held on a central database accessible by all local authorities for the purpose of updating...

the information is then sent via the internet to depot terminals which then download to the ticket machines when the vehicle returns to the depot....

If a card is "hotlisted" a message will appear on the screen stating this and also usually with an instruction to retain the card... the card remains the property of the issuing authority and NOT the passenger...

HOWEVER drivers are usually advised NOT to withdraw the card unless it is an obvious case of fraud (ie the picture is not of the person using the card). Instead free travel should be refused and the customer given the option of paying for the journey and then advised to contact their local council.

 

[sng7]

This is Lothian Buses view which i think is fair:

What happens if the ticket machine can’t read my Scottish National Entitlement Card?

This could mean your card is faulty. You will need to obtain a replacement card from the local authority in whose area you live. On the bus, you can choose to either:

Keep your card and buy a ticket for the journey you intend to take.

OR

Give the faulty card to the driver who will then issue you with a temporary concession pass, valid for 7 days on all eligible local bus services throughout Scotland.

Whichever you choose, please make sure that you apply for your replacement card as soon as possible.

 

[AndrewE]

This is Lothian Buses view which i think is fair:

Yet again Scotland leaves England standing and (worse) looking like a load of idiots! Please can we shut Westminster and let Edinburgh run England?

 

[oldman]

The LB rule is about faulty (can't read) cards, not blocked (can read but won't accept) cards.

 

[90019]

The LB rule is about faulty (can't read) cards, not blocked (can read but won't accept) cards.

Unless it's a wrong user, they keep the card but have to pay.