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Discontinuous Electrification - RUK's thoughts?

Nottingham59

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The impressive range and charging times being displayed by the class 230 under tests which have exceed the expectations change the electrification debate.

86 miles on one charge and ultrafast charging speeds mean this technology should allow significant electric operation of secondary and branch routes without incurring the cost of full electrification.
Agree. There are many routes already that have OHLE at each end and could be run by battery trains now.

And when the MML is fully electrified, many routes across the north of England will be battery compatible with no or very low additional infrastructure costs. In my part of the world, that includes Nottingham-Liverpool; Newark-Crewe; Robin Hood Line; Northern service to Leeds; Cross Country to Birmingham and Cardiff. In fact all Nottingham services except those heading to the wilds of Lincolnshire and Norfolk.
 
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zwk500

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Agree. There are many routes already that have OHLE at each end and could be run by battery trains now.

And when the MML is fully electrified, many routes across the north of England will be battery compatible with no or very low additional infrastructure costs. In my part of the world, that includes Nottingham-Liverpool; Newark-Crewe; Robin Hood Line; Northern service to Leeds; Cross Country to Birmingham and Cardiff. In fact all Nottingham services except those heading to the wilds of Lincolnshire and Norfolk.
Indeed - and if battery units were much more common, then potentially things like Newark-Lincoln electrification are possible which then gives Nottingham even more battery options.
Liverpool-Norwich would probably need the Erewash electrifying, but might be able to do Peterborough-Norwich with a top-up at Ely and charging through the layover at Norwich. Stockport-Dore and Nottingham-Grantham would almost certainly be feasible for a battery unit.
 

Nottingham59

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Indeed - and if battery units were much more common, then potentially things like Newark-Lincoln electrification are possible which then gives Nottingham even more battery options.
Yes. Electrification islands at Lincoln, Exeter, Cheltenham, Salisbury, Shrewsbury plus a couple of other places and pretty much the whole network can be electrified. And range extender engines, fueled on HVO biodiesel, would decarbonise the whole network.

Liverpool-Norwich would probably need the Erewash electrifying,
Clay cross to Nottingham is not very far at all.

but might be able to do Peterborough-Norwich with a top-up at Ely and charging through the layover at Norwich.
You might have to extend the wires out from Ely for a few miles, in whichever direction had the fewer low bridges.

Stockport-Dore and Nottingham-Grantham would almost certainly be feasible for a battery unit.
True, especially as it's only Hazel-Grove to Dore.

My rule of thumb is electrify all lines carrying 4tph or more.
Batterify all lines carrying 1-2tph
Biodiesel range extenders with BEMU for all lines carrying less than this.
 

edwin_m

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Batterify all lines carrying 1-2tph
Biodiesel range extenders with BEMU for all lines carrying less than this.
Battery versus diesel is more a question of the distance to be travelled away from wires or other charging opportunities, rather than the frequency of service operated.
 

Ken H

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Battery versus diesel is more a question of the distance to be travelled away from wires or other charging opportunities, rather than the frequency of service operated.
Lets take leeds-harrogate-york as an example. Bung the wires up leeds - Harrogate. Use a BEMU. It should get enough charge doing that bit + the layover in Leeds. Bit of opportunity charging in York. Jobs a good un.
Wire Leeds - Castleford. Battery on to Knottingley.
 

hwl

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The GWR class 230 charge ultra fast at up to 2000KW's. Yes they will ramp up and down from that charging speed and environmental conditions will vary it a bit but it's not going to exceed normal turnaround times at terminal stations.
Don't forget you also don't have to charge fully each time and can opportunity charge.
I've seen the charge times for the modelled Thames Valley branches and all are in 2-3 mins range.

With a purpose built and lighter train design than the class 230 I'd expect range to extend by at least 25% as they are not the most efficient design.
A significant charge occurs overnight, the units get top ups at termini that are less than the energy used per trip cycle, the quick charges between trips effectively significantly reduce the net discharge rate per journey cycle but they still make it through the day.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I think the voltage drop in the Southern 3rd rail is quite a lot at the London end in peak periods is quite a lot. I am unsure at what low voltage the circuit breakers kick in in substations and trains.
Its not as its sized to deal with the peaks and the substations are much closer together. Voltage drop at the shoegear is generally higher in the outer areas but even then its designed to deal with outages of plant which is when worse case situations occur.

450V used to be level at which line contactors on trains would drop out from no volt relays presumably now mimicked by software on modern trains.
Lets say there is a 100v drop. charging battery trains will make that worse. So sizing the battery to be fully charged on the 3rd rail between Oxted and London and back on 750v may be a bit of a best case scenario.
The inverters will take care of line voltage variation to maintain optimum charging voltage
What we dont want is a battery/electric train arriving at Oxted from London without enough charge to do the return trip to Oxted.
Of course the sane solution is to electrify Oxted - Uckfield
The battery will need to be sized for the round trip taking into account highest hotel load plus an allowance for operational disruption. The Schleswig Holstein BEMUs couldn't achieve this without intermediate recharge so some form of charging is going to be necessary at Uckfield.
 
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edwin_m

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The inverters will take care of line voltage variation to maintain optimum charging voltage
However, in doing so, they will draw more current from the supply to maintain the power level they need to sustain the necessary charge rate. That will increase voltage drop, dragging down an already low voltage still further, and unless the supply is reinforced there may be a runaway effect until the voltage goes too low for the charging train or other nearby trains to use it. There is also the risk of the current exceeding limits and tripping breakers out.

For that reason the charging electronics and software may have to degrade more gracefully by reducing the charge rate and hence the current draw if the line voltage drops too low. This will obviously increase the charging time.
 

HSTEd

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However, in doing so, they will draw more current from the supply to maintain the power level they need to sustain the necessary charge rate. That will increase voltage drop, dragging down an already low voltage still further, and unless the supply is reinforced there may be a runaway effect until the voltage goes too low for the charging train or other nearby trains to use it. There is also the risk of the current exceeding limits and tripping breakers out.

For that reason the charging electronics and software may have to degrade more gracefully by reducing the charge rate and hence the current draw if the line voltage drops too low. This will obviously increase the charging time.
Such a reduction has been part of the third rail specification in the past, the easily available BR specification circa 1991 requires a gradual fall off in current draw in a low voltage situation.
I do not have access to the current specification but I can't imagine that requirement has been abandoned.
 

deltic08

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Lets take leeds-harrogate-york as an example. Bung the wires up leeds - Harrogate. Use a BEMU. It should get enough charge doing that bit + the layover in Leeds. Bit of opportunity charging in York. Jobs a good un.
Wire Leeds - Castleford. Battery on to Knottingley.
It would be better to electrify York to Harrogate as there are fewer over bridges and only as short tunnel at Knaresborough. Leeds to Harrogate has 3 lengthy viaducts all of 22 arches or more and a tunnel more than 2 miles long.
Alternately extend wire to Poppleton at the York end and to Horsforth at the Leeds end to allow BEMUs long enough to charge batteries on the move and at turnround. There is a Leeds-Horsforth service in the evening peak that need only be an EMU instead of BEMU.
The whole loop is a simple electrification with little complicated trackwork except in Harrogate station, both nodal points of York and Leeds are already wired, feeder points at Leeds and York already upgraded with enough capacity to feed from either end or both ends, only 59 single track miles unwired, release of 9 diesel units (mostly 170s) to unwired routes, and 9 surplus 323s going begging from West Midlands that are better at accelerating from station stops and hill climbing out of Leeds and bimode London trains not necessary as electric only Azumas and IC 225s can be diagrammed. Electric units are also cheaper to operate, maintain and lease. The daytime service is 2 tph with 3 or 4 tph in both peaks which experts say is the minimum frequency required for electrification.
I wrote to the Prime Minister before Christmas to allocate some of the £36 billion of cancelled HS2 money on electrifying the Harrogate Loop with these advantages. He wrote back that he did not recognise these advantages. What a complete buffoon.
 

HSTEd

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It would be better to electrify York to Harrogate as there are fewer over bridges and only as short tunnel at Knaresborough. Leeds to Harrogate has 3 lengthy viaducts all of 22 arches or more and a tunnel more than 2 miles long.
Alternately extend wire to Poppleton at the York end and to Horsforth at the Leeds end to allow BEMUs long enough to charge batteries on the move and at turnround. There is a Leeds-Horsforth service in the evening peak that need only be an EMU instead of BEMU.
The whole loop is a simple electrification with little complicated trackwork except in Harrogate station, both nodal points of York and Leeds are already wired, feeder points at Leeds and York already upgraded with enough capacity to feed from either end or both ends, only 59 single track miles unwired, release of 9 diesel units (mostly 170s) to unwired routes, and 9 surplus 323s going begging from West Midlands that are better at accelerating from station stops and hill climbing out of Leeds and bimode London trains not necessary as electric only Azumas and IC 225s can be diagrammed. Electric units are also cheaper to operate, maintain and lease. The daytime service is 2 tph with 3 or 4 tph in both peaks which experts say is the minimum frequency required for electrification.
I wrote to the Prime Minister before Christmas to allocate some of the £36 billion of cancelled HS2 money on electrifying the Harrogate Loop with these advantages. He wrote back that he did not recognise these advantages. What a complete buffoon.
59 single track miles is going to cost something like half a billion pounds at current outturn prices (~£4.5m/ track-km)

At that point cost for new rolling stock becomes more or less irrelevant.
However much nine battery units cost, it won't be a large fraction of the cost of electrification.
 

deltic08

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59 single track miles is going to cost something like half a billion pounds at current outturn prices (~£4.5m/ track-km)

At that point cost for new rolling stock becomes more or less irrelevant.
However much nine battery units cost, it won't be a large fraction of the cost of electrification.
It probably would. It was costed in 2013 at £99 million in a study by WSP funded by North and West Yorkshire County Councils. Look what we missed.
 
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AlastairFraser

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I think discontinuous electrification will have a part to play in branch lines that can justify electrification in parts because they run into a major terminal, but which have significant obstacles to encounter for OHLE further out.

For example, Northern's new bimodes could be used on Buxton line services if you extended OHLE from Hazel Grove to Disley station, avoided electrifying Disley tunnel, resumed electrification at the other end up to Chapel-en-le-Frith (Chapel tunnel would be a challenge, it's quite long and quite wet), and then electrify the last stretch down to Buxton.
It would help services keep to a tighter path on the WCML section, and the journey times would probably look considerably better as a lot of the worst inclines would have the OHLE power on tap.

Elsewhere, if GWR gets bimodes to replace Sprinters, initial electrifrication of Crediton to Pinhoe and Tiverton to Newton Abbot may be a useful application for discontinuous electrification.

That would allow services like Exmouth to Paignton + Exeter to Okehampton (and potentially Barnstaples should battery performance increase) to use battery bi modes, and also help the 802s to stay off diesel in some densely populated areas. SWR could also benefit when the time comes to replace their Sprinters too.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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However, in doing so, they will draw more current from the supply to maintain the power level they need to sustain the necessary charge rate. That will increase voltage drop, dragging down an already low voltage still further, and unless the supply is reinforced there may be a runaway effect until the voltage goes too low for the charging train or other nearby trains to use it. There is also the risk of the current exceeding limits and tripping breakers out.

For that reason the charging electronics and software may have to degrade more gracefully by reducing the charge rate and hence the current draw if the line voltage drops too low. This will obviously increase the charging time.
Batteries wont take as much power as an accelerating train does so they won't collapse line voltage. The only difference will be the high voltage distribution system will see a higher overall load.
 

edwin_m

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Batteries wont take as much power as an accelerating train does so they won't collapse line voltage. The only difference will be the high voltage distribution system will see a higher overall load.
The train will take more power unless charging is suspended while it's accelerating. Which sounds possible but obviously increases the on-network time needed to complete a particular duty. The other issue is that heating of the substation equipment is one of the limiting factors for traction supply, and this will depend on the square of current over time. If the train is charging batteries it will draw either more current or the same current for more time, either of which will increase the heating. If the voltage has dropped and the train hasn't de-rated itself to compensate, then to supply the same power the average current and hence the heating will be greater.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The train will take more power unless charging is suspended while it's accelerating. Which sounds possible but obviously increases the on-network time needed to complete a particular duty. The other issue is that heating of the substation equipment is one of the limiting factors for traction supply, and this will depend on the square of current over time. If the train is charging batteries it will draw either more current or the same current for more time, either of which will increase the heating. If the voltage has dropped and the train hasn't de-rated itself to compensate, then to supply the same power the average current and hence the heating will be greater.
You are correct to draw attention to the heating impact of substation equipment and that is key input into the design of traction substations. Im not sure of the IEC equivalent today but the BS4417 standard that was certainly in force till the 1990s called for 100% continuous followed by 150% for 2hrs followed by 300% for one minute of the nominal rating and the temp rise had to below that specified for the insulation class. Rarely were any SR substations close to these parameters in any of the monitoring i did when working for the system test department of the M&EE even under outage conditions ie adjacent substation off line. Thus additional battery charging on a few trains working to Uckfield isn't going to tip the power system over. Sure if you were in an area where every train cam off a non electrified area then reinforcement would probably be necessary.
 

eldomtom2

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For a very hostile opinion on discontinous electrification, see this position statement from the American Effective Transit Alliance: (of course, it's worth remembering that the situation around electrification is very different in the US)
The battery EMU (BEMU) market is more developed, largely for European regional lines with so little traffic that wiring them may not be economically justified. As such, some American passenger railroads, such as Metra and the MBTA, have expressed interest in battery-powered trains as an alternative to OCS, citing the lower cost of fixed infrastructure and challenges such as clearance. Many railroads around the world have experimented with battery trains and found little savings over traditional electric propulsion. Despite ongoing predictions of large advances, battery propulsion is still a nascent technology that has suffered notable setbacks. Planned battery train deployments in the Netherlands [27], on Long Island [28], and in New Jersey [29] have failed to materialize. BEMUs recently purchased by Liverpool’s Merseyrail have been fraught with mechanical problems [30]. BEMU deployment on high-ridership corridors is inappropriate for several reasons.

First, BEMUs have around a 100% cost premium over conventional EMUs [31]. Because costs increase with frequency and number of cars per set, and because train sets are recurring investments, this would drive up costs relative to conventional OCS methods. Moreover, charging time drastically lengthens the amount of time that trains lay idle, requiring more trains to be purchased for a given service level than with OCS. For this reason, active BEMU plans in Europe and Asia are generally limited to low-frequency lines running no more than three-car trains.

Second, most BEMU projects save little infrastructure capital cost over traditional OCS. To avoid significant charging time as mentioned above, BEMUs nearly invariably require extensive wired track to charge en route. Worse, the substations must supply high power intermittently to charge the batteries, increasing their cost and negative impact on the grid. Most of the recently deployed BEMUs charge partially from preexisting and/or partially extended wire and run through onto unelectrified, lower-ridership segments. For instance, Baden-Württemburg recently chose battery propulsion to extend electrification on its mostly-electrified system and plans to add OCS to some currently unequipped track [32]. This is likewise the MBTA’s current plan, and it requires approximately 30% of the Newburyport/Rockport Line’s full track mileage to be electrified.

Third, battery trains are likely to be slower and less reliable than their EMU counterparts, reducing ticket revenue and mode share. The combination of weather and limited battery service life is likely to introduce significant variability in charging times at endpoints. Furthermore, on a recently debuted BEMU, engineers had to eliminate traction motors from one of four bogies to fit the batteries, cutting power output by 25% [33]. On that train set, the power reduction adds 15 to 20 seconds of runtime per stop.
 

edwin_m

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You are correct to draw attention to the heating impact of substation equipment and that is key input into the design of traction substations. Im not sure of the IEC equivalent today but the BS4417 standard that was certainly in force till the 1990s called for 100% continuous followed by 150% for 2hrs followed by 300% for one minute of the nominal rating and the temp rise had to below that specified for the insulation class. Rarely were any SR substations close to these parameters in any of the monitoring i did when working for the system test department of the M&EE even under outage conditions ie adjacent substation off line. Thus additional battery charging on a few trains working to Uckfield isn't going to tip the power system over. Sure if you were in an area where every train cam off a non electrified area then reinforcement would probably be necessary.
I recall reading that heating was one of the issues prompting the power supply upgrade when the slam-door stock was replaced by the Desiro and Electrostar fleets with much more current draw. I'm not sure if the upgrades have re-created a significant headroom on the supply or whether some of it is more marginal than before.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I recall reading that heating was one of the issues prompting the power supply upgrade when the slam-door stock was replaced by the Desiro and Electrostar fleets with much more current draw. I'm not sure if the upgrades have re-created a significant headroom on the supply or whether some of it is more marginal than before.
It was which is why for example on the Brighton Line virtually every Track Paralleling Hut (TPH) was converted to a substation and the HV distribution system was reinforced from Three Bridges Grid supply point. Converting every TPH was an element of overkill but it was the only practical solution as redesigning the traction system against the power profile for Desiro / Electrostar fleets would have required a complete rebuild costing even more.
 

MarkyT

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It was which is why for example on the Brighton Line virtually every Track Paralleling Hut (TPH) was converted to a substation and the HV distribution system was reinforced from Three Bridges Grid supply point. Converting every TPH was an element of overkill but it was the only practical solution as redesigning the traction system against the power profile for Desiro / Electrostar fleets would have required a complete rebuild costing even more.
So it sounds like there should be some capacity headroom on the Brighton Line. Much of Kent had been strengthened previously in the same way for Channel Tunnel traffic and Networkers. I don't know much about the South Western beyond there being shiny newer-looking equipment huts at many of the substations, alongside older equipment. I recall on introduction the SWT Desiros had some artificial traction regulation applied to limit maximum current draw. I don't know if this is still in force or has been dialled back.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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So it sounds like there should be some capacity headroom on the Brighton Line. Much of Kent had been strengthened previously in the same way for Channel Tunnel traffic and Networkers. I don't know much about the South Western beyond there being shiny newer-looking equipment huts at many of the substations, alongside older equipment. I recall on introduction the SWT Desiros had some artificial traction regulation applied to limit maximum current draw. I don't know if this is still in force or has been dialled back.
The high current rail specification for channel tunnel (Cl92/373) were set at 6.8kA/train and was adopted for 12 car networker routes. Subsequently they've lowered the high current specification to 6kA or nominally 2kA/4 car. Originally for Electrostars and Desiros the current cap was set at 1.5kA so it matched the nominally power envelope of a 4 car 4xEE507 motored EP stock. Subsequently there was a tweak on Electrostars that allowed some advantage to be taken when they were configured to 8 car or less although i believe thats still not using full installed capacity. AIUI Desiros are still on 1.5kA and have no modified limit for shorter formations which is what gives them such lethargic acceleration. However, SWL to Southampton/Reading are reinforced to High Current so the trains could utilise a higher current profile but would need some sort of GPS control to restrict it on the routes that haven't been reinforced. Anyhow can't see First MTR doing anything with the Desiros and probably would invoke some need for safety case work.
 

MarkyT

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AIUI Desiros are still on 1.5kA and have no modified limit for shorter formations which is what gives them such lethargic acceleration. However, SWL to Southampton/Reading are reinforced to High Current so the trains could utilise a higher current profile but would need some sort of GPS control to restrict it on the routes that haven't been reinforced. Anyhow can't see First MTR doing anything with the Desiros and probably would invoke some need for safety case work.
Maybe deploy a eurobalise at every extremity of the HC area to switch into an appropriate less limited mode, and back to default on exit. South Wales Metro is building a system for pantograph control on their partially electrified network using this tech. Maybe use GPS + driver verification during startup from cold to determine whether in or out of the area, if the state cannot be stored through a shutdown.
 

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