Discussion about Renaming Tickets

[Deafdoggie]

Moderator Note - Split From:

Wrong ticket

Hi all, looking for advice about what I should do/what may happen. Apologies in advance if this is long and/or rambling, I'm still shaking and very worried. Travelling for work today and thought I had an open return ticket as that's normally what I buy (needing flexibility around meetings etc)...

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Also to echo @Haywain the specific issue with Trainline Splitsave is that a) a lot of people are oblivious that they are splitting at all, and b) oblivious that it is mixing and matching ticket types and likely including AdAdvances.

You can't be oblivious to it splitting tickets, it mentions it several times. You have to agree messages about it to see the tickets and pay.
The fact that at least part of the journey is an advance ticket, whilst not hidden, isn't as obvious. And, to a casual traveller, they would think their ticket was an advance purchase unless they were travelling straight away. The railway really could do with a better and clearer term.

 

[DaveB10780]

You can't be oblivious to it splitting tickets, it mentions it several times. You have to agree messages about it to see the tickets and pay.
The fact that at least part of the journey is an advance ticket, whilst not hidden, isn't as obvious. And, to a casual traveller, they would think their ticket was an advance purchase unless they were travelling straight away. The railway really could do with a better and clearer term.

The problem with the word advance is highlighted by those in my family who just want to have a journey and return without issues. No matter how hard I try they associate the word Advance with a ticket bought before travel e.g. a few days before to get reservation with an Off Peak return. They find it hard to understand that the term is used to mean tickets with a fixed train. So Advance needs to have a different name in my view.

Secondly I have great sympathy when the tickets bought are not what was expected. This is an unfortunate consequence of the demand to show all options even if 20p cheaper. The more options that are shown the harder it is to select the right option especially in a hurry. I wonder what percentage of travellers really want a complicated set of mixed tickets. Very, very few I suggest.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The problem with the word advance is highlighted by those in my family who just want to have a journey and return without issues. No matter how hard I try they associate the word Advance with a ticket bought before travel e.g. a few days before to get reservation with an Off Peak return. They find it hard to understand that the term is used to mean tickets with a fixed train. So Advance needs to have a different name in my view.

Secondly I have great sympathy when the tickets bought are not what was expected. This is an unfortunate consequence of the demand to show all options even if 20p cheaper. The more options that are shown the harder it is to select the right option especially in a hurry. I wonder what percentage of travellers really want a complicated set of mixed tickets. Very, very few I suggest.

Absolutely. Anytime does exactly what it says. Off-peak at least gives a clue (even if off-peak times vary considerably!) But advance means nothing to all but the hardened traveller. The fact you can buy advance tickets for immediate travel further confuses the issue!
Ideal world scenario you want a ticket direct from A to Z to be the cheapest. But if A to D to G to H to K to Z is cheaper I don't think many people mind, but they do laugh at the railways stupidity. Which does nothing to enhance the railways image. If there's no advance A to Z left and splitting becomes cheaper and there's still advances K to R then it doesn't really matter as you'd have had an advance anyway. It's just if you didn't want an advance at all that it's a problem.
Ticketing has become so complex that really it needs all scrapping and starting again on a clean sheet. But the chances of this happening are exactly zero. So it just gets more bodged and gets worse!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To some extent the old "brands" Open, Saver/SuperSaver and APEX* made more sense. You can more easily associate features with a brand than with a generic word. Anytime probably makes sense though.

* Old airline terminology that stands for Advance Purchase EXcursion, but there's no need for people to actually know that any more than what HSBC stands for or whatever.

 

[Titfield]

Ticketing has become so complex that really it needs all scrapping and starting again on a clean sheet. But the chances of this happening are exactly zero. So it just gets more bodged and gets worse!

Two of the most significant challenges in clear communication is to differentiate between
(1) When bookings can be made
(2) When travel can be undertaken.

Peak and Off peak relate to when travel can be undertaken but advance refers to when bookings can be made but does not communicate that such tickets are capacity controlled, there are multiple fare levels and most significantly they are fixed (ie changes can not be made).

As regards coming up with a new ticketing system the problem has been caused by the move to market (demand) based pricing from mileage based pricing.

Split ticketing works because it is exploiting market based pricing when combining demand in different sectors of a journey. With mileage based pricing this situation doesnt arise.

To some extent the old "brands" Open, Saver/SuperSaver and APEX* made more sense. You can more easily associate features with a brand than with a generic word. Anytime probably makes sense though.

* Old airline terminology that stands for Advance Purchase EXcursion, but there's no need for people to actually know that any more than what HSBC stands for or whatever.

Not to mention Super Apex.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention Super Apex.

I think the idea that SuperApex was cheaper than Apex and SuperSaver was cheaper than Saver was fairly well understood, and it's not purely a UK thing, Germany does it as well with Sparpreis and SuperSparpreis.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the idea that SuperApex was cheaper than Apex and SuperSaver was cheaper than Saver was fairly well understood, and it's not purely a UK thing, Germany does it as well with Sparpreis and SuperSparpreis.

The trouble became when a "saver" was one of the most expensive tickets, so you began to wonder what exactly you were saving!
"Open" mean nothing except to rail enthuiasts. Although, arguably, better than "advance" which means something else! Better to mean nothing than the wrong thing.

 

[Haywain]

advance refers to when bookings can be made but does not communicate that such tickets are capacity controlled, there are multiple fare levels and most significantly they are fixed (ie changes can not be made).

Other than that the ticket should be booked in advance and usage is fixed, I don't see any necessity for the rest to be communicated.

 

[Titfield]

I think the idea that SuperApex was cheaper than Apex and SuperSaver was cheaper than Saver was fairly well understood, and it's not purely a UK thing, Germany does it as well with Sparpreis and SuperSparpreis.

Yes super apex was cheaper than apex but there was usually less capacity than for apex.

Other than that the ticket should be booked in advance and usage is fixed, I don't see any necessity for the rest to be communicated.

For the purposes of discussion:

Fixed Off Peak Single
Fixed Peak Single
Flexible Off Peak Single
Flexible Peak Single

A return is two singles (one in each direction).

Fixed means it can only be used on the specific train it is booked for, can not be changed and can not be refunded.

Flexible means it can be used on any train (subject to the time restrictions of peak and off peak) and can not be refunded*.

Is the word anytime better than peak ? The problem being you cant say Fixed Anytime ..... because that confuses when it can be used with how it can be used.

The remaining problem you have got is how do you communicate which tickets have to be purchased in advance (and which can be bought on the day) and whether they are capacity controlled.

*The problem with refunds is being able to tell if a ticket has been used.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - there's already a discussion on this topic in Speculative Discussion to further posts on this topic are best put in that thread:

Renaming Ticket Types to avoid confusion

There have been a number of posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section where the naming of the "advance" and "anytime" ticket types appear to have caused confusion resulting in action being taken against passengers who were travelling without a ticket valid for that specific train. It has...

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