Disruption on HS1 due to signalling problems caused by flooding in the Thames Tunnel.

[CarrotPie]

Would it be too difficult (I have no idea) to run e300s to Ashford/Lenham Heath, then get them picked up by a 92 and sent the long (electrified) way round via Fawkham and the NLL to STP? I assume route and traction knowledge exists, but probably not in the most practical of combinations. Probably only capacity for 1tph, but that would be better than absolutely nothing. Perhaps this is a non-starter for some other reason, but it seems like it should work...

 

[duffield]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion of the root cause of this particular issue, in particular where the water came from. The latest I've seen is that Thames Water and HS1 seem to disagree about the source of the water.
The following quote is from the BBC news website article:

Thames Water had earlier said a "fire control system" was likely to have caused the flooding. But HS1 said the source of the flooding will be the subject of an investigation, but at this stage it had "no evidence to suggest that the fire control system was related to the issue in any way".

My uniformed thoughts were that when you've got a huge volume of water coming out of a specific pipe then the source should probably be obvious, but clearly that's not so!

 

[ExRes]

Would it be too difficult (I have no idea) to run e300s to Ashford/Lenham Heath, then get them picked up by a 92 and sent the long (electrified) way round via Fawkham and the NLL to STP? I assume route and traction knowledge exists, but probably not in the most practical of combinations. Probably only capacity for 1tph, but that would be better than absolutely nothing. Perhaps this is a non-starter for some other reason, but it seems like it should work...

It's already been stated numerous times that Eurostar trains are out of gauge for normal lines in the UK, if there were available 92s and if there were the staff to work them it would still not happen

For those that seem to think that Eurostar passengers can be sent by aircraft at a moments notice, which aircraft and where are the staff to prepare and fly them?

 

[Benjwri]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion of the root cause of this particular issue, in particular where the water came from. The latest I've seen is that Thames Water and HS1 seem to disagree about the source of the water.
The following quote is from the BBC news website article:


My uniformed thoughts were that when you've got a huge volume of water coming out of a specific pipe then the source should probably be obvious, but clearly that's not so!

The only semi official statement has been that one from Thames Water, stating it was a fire control system, that’s probably what it was. The rumours it was a Thames water pipe were not official.

If the fire control system pipe burst that might explain firstly why it wasn’t isolated immediately, and then why both tunnels had to be closed yesterday, as I doubt trains are allowed to run through with the system turned off.

 

[Winthorpe]

I am sympathetic to the criticisms of Eurostar's inadequate contingency plans. But doesn't it show how much we take international travel for granted and expect almost zero inconvenience.

My adult life has been wholly in the cheap flight era. But when I talk to parents and certainly grandparents, they describe international travel as an adventure. Things not going exactly to plan was the norm rather than the rare exception.

 

[yorksrob]

Things not going exactly to plan was the norm rather than the rare exception.

Not confined to international travel nowadays.

When my grandparents went abroad it was to fight in world wars.

 

[johncrossley]

My adult life has been wholly in the cheap flight era. But when I talk to parents and certainly grandparents, they describe international travel as an adventure. Things not going exactly to plan was the norm rather than the rare exception.

The main problem is living on an island and relying on just one tunnel. It is much easier if there are multiple road and rail crossings like there are between most of our neighbouring countries.

 

[Benjwri]

Both tunnels now open, Up tunnel full line speed, down tunnel restricted to 160kph.

 

[CarrotPie]

It's already been stated numerous times that Eurostar trains are out of gauge for normal lines in the UK

That's curious, because the e300s were in gauge umpteen years ago...

if there were available 92s and if there were the staff to work them it would still not happen

Why wouldn't it? The 92s have the signalling and AC/DC capability, and they're the most powerful electric loco you have.

 

[stuu]

The main problem is living on an island and relying on just one tunnel. It is much easier if there are multiple road and rail crossings like there are between most of our neighbouring countries.

Fairly sure there are still other choices

 

[station_road]

That's curious, because the e300s were in gauge umpteen years ago...

They had to be, because they ran on the classic network into Waterloo. The new trains were only designed to run on HS1 with it's more generous loading gauge

 

[21C101]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion of the root cause of this particular issue, in particular where the water came from.

The root cause of this issue is an infrastructure failure.
These have been very rare up to now as the infrastructure was very new. Infrastructure failure will become increasingly common as it ages.

 

[ExRes]

That's curious, because the e300s were in gauge umpteen years ago...

Why wouldn't it? The 92s have the signalling and AC/DC capability, and they're the most powerful electric loco you have.

The old Eurostars were the new ones aren't, that's progress for you, the 92s would be okay running light engine but not with out of gauge coaches behind them

 

[Horizon22]

With the benefit of not being caught up in it - it was "only" a day and a bit. It's hard to know what they can do about that. I think obvious mitigations are looking at how both bores of the Thames tunnel were affected at the same time, and possibly maintaining route knowledge for Ashford, as that is a reasonable size and a better place than Ebbsfleet to at least terminate a train, but then what do you do then? Impossible to have alternative through routes because of Victorian railway history, different electrification and the impossibility of going somewhere your driver hasn't trained for... These won't ever change for a day's disruption.

I think it’s also very unfortunate the “day” (including the wildcat strike) was in the Xmas period both times when obviously it will get more media attention and days around it are fully booked up and there’s critical time pressures (Xmas Day and NYE)

A Wednesday in the middle of November probably wouldn’t have been so dramatic, gathered as much attention or have had the same impact.

 

[djw]

Would it be too difficult (I have no idea) to run e300s to Ashford/Lenham Heath, then get them picked up by a 92 and sent the long (electrified) way round via Fawkham and the NLL to STP? I assume route and traction knowledge exists, but probably not in the most practical of combinations. Probably only capacity for 1tph, but that would be better than absolutely nothing. Perhaps this is a non-starter for some other reason, but it seems like it should work...

This feels like the wrong solution on many levels.

Most Eurostar sets are Class 374 (e320), which are out-of-gauge for conventional lines. There are a limited number of Class 373 (e300) sets, not least to retain 1500V DC capabilities, but their long-term future is in doubt considering they are all approaching 30 years old.

If you could guarantee e300 stock availability, you would be dragging a heavy train partly on 750V DC. Power availability might be an issue, as might class 92 availability. Gauging might also be an issue, as you would be travelling over some track that was never cleared for Class 373. I have no idea whether a class 92 could supply enough hotel power for a class 373, but I doubt it could, especially on 750V DC.

There are also pathing issues and issues with getting and maintaining route knowledge.

Curtailing services at Ashford International makes more sense than attempting to drag Class 373s to St Pancras International. Hopefully, Eurostar makes the investment to bring Ashford International back into use for Eurostar services, making Ashford a viable contingency option if the line to St Pancras International is blocked, albeit challenging for capacity reasons.

 

[Benjwri]

I have no idea whether a class 92 could supply enough hotel power for a class 373, but I doubt it could, especially on 750V DC.

Can a class 373 even accept hotel power from any train? Not to mention the Class 373 would have to have multiple items isolated, not least the brakes as there will be incompatibility with the 92, which will almost certainly mean it cannot have passengers on it.

 

[popeter45]

Honestly a better idea if anything would be transfering people to a dedicated 387 or 395 at Ashford cross platform that then goes the classic route to st pancreas with special procedure to let them into the international platforms

Such a idea would need to be set up as a contingency like how Kensington Olympia use to have a backup arrivals procedure rather than an ad hoc idea on the day

 

[Taylor1]

Perhaps its always worth thinking of a family of four or five (e.g. a grand-parent, parents and kids, one under three in these circumstances). And if you’ve followed the serpentine lines at Brussels, Paris St. Pancras, you’ll notice there are many such and different families.

Anyway, as mentioned upthread, what we are dealing with is mainly an insurance challenge and who should pay the insurance premium, a., Eurostar (indirectly passing the cost on to the passenger as it partly does at the moment for the business premier class; incidentally there are seats available today on at least three services at £325 a seat) or b., the passenger. I think the latter is the best option. There are cancellation for any reason policies (CFAR) and it would be fair for Eurostar to point out as part of the booking process what and what will not be their liability in case St Pancras or any other part of the route becomes unavailable; it is, after all, a service with several potential single points of failure without rapidly available alternatives. Passengers can then make their choices: 1., Not to use Eurorstar at all (as some posters upthread have decided is their choice), 2., insure on an CFAR basis to cover at least two nights in a hotel and/or the costs of an alternative routing, or 3., grin and bear the costs of risk—as it appears most passengers are willing to do.

Passengers really must try and get it into their heads, that when something can go wrong, they must think through what they would do if it does. (I’m tired of the, “You would have thought they’d…” responses to camera we so often hear. Like several of you above, I’ve been stranded more times than I care to remember, but it’s my responsibility to sort it out. It’s a simple question and the passengers’ responsibility to answer it—particularly if travelling with dependents, the frail or very young. Hence my suggestion above, save up and put aside an amount to cover the highest cost of completing your journey. Just out if curiosity I just looked up private hire from London City to Orly: £7,500 (six passengers) expenses and taxes included. Ouch! But I could just manage it.

 

[londonteacher]

That's just one possibility. Consider how many cities have direct flights to both London and Paris. You could connect through nearly all major cities in Europe and many smaller cities.

But there is also the issue of cost. Not everyone has the money to buy flights (at a usually inflated price) on the day even more so if it’s more than one person in the party.

 

[yorksrob]

Honestly a better idea if anything would be transfering people to a dedicated 387 or 395 at Ashford cross platform that then goes the classic route to st pancreas with special procedure to let them into the international platforms

Such a idea would need to be set up as a contingency like how Kensington Olympia use to have a backup arrivals procedure rather than an ad hoc idea on the day

There isn't a classic route to St Pancreas (with the exception of Thameslink which is too busy). It would have to be one of the Southern terminals.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why wouldn't it? The 92s have the signalling and AC/DC capability, and they're the most powerful electric loco you have.

Last time I enquired about the single line chord into St Pancras from the NLL, built to get WCML trains into St Pancras, it reportedly had never been used.

 

[popeter45]

There isn't a classic route to St Pancreas (with the exception of Thameslink which is too busy). It would have to be one of the Southern terminals.

Ashford via nll to the never used connection to st pancreas HS1 approach

 

[yorksrob]

Ashford via nll to the never used connection to st pancreas HS1 approach

I stand corrected.

I suppose it might be possible !

 

[Benjwri]

Ashford via nll to the never used connection to st pancreas HS1 approach

You'd be much better going to Victoria or Charring Cross, there is no access using the NLL from the east without a reversing maneuver as far as I am aware, which isn't feasible on a very busy line even without extra trains, unless you're deciding largely tourists coming from/going to France is more important than London commuters, as you'd have to bin a large amount of NLL trains.

 

[popeter45]

You'd be much better going to Victoria or Charring Cross, there is no access using the NLL from the east without a reversing maneuver as far as I am aware, which isn't feasible on a very busy line even without extra trains, unless you're deciding largely tourists coming from/going to France is more important than London commuters, as you'd have to bin a large amount of NLL trains.

From nll I mean via the west via Kensington Olympia
Also this potentially would still allow outward travel as people go thru security at st pancras, take one of the dedicated shuttles to Ashford to board the Eurostar onwards

 

[Richardr]

Maybe for the speculative discussion forum:

1. Reopen Ebbsfleet International for Eurostar services.

2. Build a connection from the North Kent Line to Ebbsfleet International for alternative connections to London. There’s already a junction on the running line just before Northfleet going that way.

3. Extend Elizabeth Line trains to the new Ebbsfleet terminus.

Sorted

Isn't Ebbsfleet too far along the line for emergency purposes - what happens if there is a problem between Ebbsfleet and the coast? It works where the issue is between there and St Pancras, but who is to say any future blockage will be in that section?

 

[deltic]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion of the root cause of this particular issue, in particular where the water came from. The latest I've seen is that Thames Water and HS1 seem to disagree about the source of the water.
The following quote is from the BBC news website article:


My uniformed thoughts were that when you've got a huge volume of water coming out of a specific pipe then the source should probably be obvious, but clearly that's not so!

I agree this seems to be the biggest issue. How did a minor problem of a leaking pipe manage to escalate to one that led to the flooding of the tunnel. The infrastructure owner and maintainer have major questions to answer as to why they didn't seem to know the basics about some of their own infrastructure. It's not as this is a Victorian piece of infrastructure where the design drawings are no longer available.

 

[grinderx]

This feels like the wrong solution on many levels.

Most Eurostar sets are Class 374 (e320), which are out-of-gauge for conventional lines. There are a limited number of Class 373 (e300) sets, not least to retain 1500V DC capabilities, but their long-term future is in doubt considering they are all approaching 30 years old.

If you could guarantee e300 stock availability, you would be dragging a heavy train partly on 750V DC. Power availability might be an issue, as might class 92 availability. Gauging might also be an issue, as you would be travelling over some track that was never cleared for Class 373. I have no idea whether a class 92 could supply enough hotel power for a class 373, but I doubt it could, especially on 750V DC.

It's pretty obvious that the e320 design has had a knock on effect in that flexibility has been and associated infrastructure removed. Kensington olympia and diversions on dc lines etc.

What we really need is a simple train service that goes over the border using the simplest train carriages possible that meet all the standards. They'd be able to go anywhere if specified properly and if the specs were simple enough then not need much maintenance.

Remember the fyra mess in the Netherlands, they fell back on their intercity coaching stock and ran it at conventional speeds. (The tunnel has different safety needs i know.) Admittedly standing room only at one point, but it worked. I recall as well that the Belgians ran old commuter stock over the border and just accepted the performance hit from the different voltage.

The most basic need for many passengers is to get across the channel between sensible stations or hubs. 2 hours to paris is good, but not essential.

If those cheap carriages met all the gauging requirements and could be hauled by anything from a class 20 etc then at least an option would be there even if they sat around or were rotated onto regular services. Its ridiculus that le shuttle is viable but a basic passenger link isn't. I know it isn't feasible under current arrangements.

Looking at the condition of the e300s doesn't fill me with confidence. The amount of bodywork corrosion looks suspect and there's unconfirmed talk of metalwork fatigue.

 

[Benjwri]

I agree this seems to be the biggest issue. How did a minor problem of a leaking pipe manage to escalate to one that led to the flooding of the tunnel. The infrastructure owner and maintainer have major questions to answer as to why they didn't seem to know the basics about some of their own infrastructure. It's not as this is a Victorian piece of infrastructure where the design drawings are no longer available.

As I mentioned upthread, if this is an pipe for the fire suppression system, they probably cannot keep the tunnels open if the system is turned off, so decided to keep it on for the first day so trains cound run. They were probably hoping to fix it overnight, but when they couldn't they had to keep the system turned off, and therefore trains couldn't run. Obviously just a theory but it would explain why both tunnels were closed, and the pipe couldn't be turned off.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Which scenarios do you have in mind for Ashford to be maintained at what level of readiness, and how often do these occur to make the costs of such maintenance worthwhile?

Any circumstance in which HS1 is closed between Ashford and London. I assume the basic infrastructure at Ashford is maintained, if not that is disgraceful. As to the level of readiness, turn on the lights, computers etc and ready to operate.
So say 24 hours notice for use.

This is one of the blights of the railway, the idea that stuff not being used immediately gets no care and maintainence. For a while we used the shorthand "mothballed" which translated into English as "left to deteriorate".