District line to Guildford

[Fazaar1889]

There were plans to extend the district line to Guildford via the new Guildford line but as District railway no longer needed that line, they didn't run the underground trains down it. What if they ran trains today? With today's traffic and infrastructure, would it be possible?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There were plans to extend the district line to Guildford via the new Guildford line but as District railway no longer needed that line, they didn't run the underground trains down it. What if they ran trains today? With today's traffic and infrastructure, would it be possible?

Was it not more the Guildford New Line was built by SR to stope London Underground ‘muscling in’ on their patch?

 

[JonathanH]

What if they ran trains today? With today's traffic and infrastructure, would it be possible?

Given the building of the green belt, the kind of expansion of the District Line that you are referring to would not be necessary.

It couldn't happen today without grade separation at Wimbledon to get the southbound District Line onto the slow lines. I think it is difficult to imagine the benefit from the District Line running to Surbiton then via Cobham when that isn't the most populated route via Wimbledon. It certainly isn't the stuff of Crossrail 2 'on the cheap' given it doesn't relieve passenger loadings where they matter.

 

[swt_passenger]

There were plans to extend the district line to Guildford via the new Guildford line but as District railway no longer needed that line, they didn't run the underground trains down it. What if they ran trains today? With today's traffic and infrastructure, would it be possible?

It’s not that easy to connect the District through Wimbledon towards the west, the SWML is basically already full. Down trains would also need to have new infrastructure, some sort of flyover or underpass, just to get over the fast lines, as the route is paired by use. They’d also conflict with up slow trains continuing towards Waterloo.

It’s why Crossrail 2 went for completely new infrastructure on the south side of the existing railway at Wimbledon, resulting in a total of six tracks towards Raynes Park, and then extending 6 tracks beyond there as far as New Malden.

 

[Fazaar1889]

It’s why Crossrail 2 went for completely new infrastructure on the south side of the existing railway at Wimbledon, resulting in a total of six tracks towards Raynes Park, and then extending 6 tracks beyond there as far as New Malden.

I've asked a variation of this question here and there, and the predominant answer is no, there's crossrail 2 lol

Which is fair enough. Though I doubt we'll get that anytime soon

 

[JonathanH]

Which is fair enough. Though I doubt we'll get that anytime soon

Indeed, but neither will we get a District Line extension either, not least because part of the justification for Crossrail 2 is to relieve the lines from Wimbledon into London, not add more load to them.

 

[75A]

I've asked a variation of this question here and there, and the predominant answer is no, there's crossrail 2 lol

Which is fair enough. Though I doubt we'll get that anytime soon

I think Crossrail 2 will be up and running before HS2!

 

[Magdalia]

There were plans to extend the district line to Guildford via the new Guildford line

But not via Wimbledon. When these plans were proposed the District Line ended at Putney Bridge. The District Line proposal to go south to Guildford from Putney Bridge was a new line via Kingston to Surbiton and then Cobham.

The line over the River Thames and into Wimbledon currently used by the District Line is ex LSWR. It was not built by the District Line. Running into Wimbledon on LSWR tracks was plan B when the line to Guildford did not happen.

Given the building of the green belt, the kind of expansion of the District Line that you are referring to would not be necessary.

The Green Belt wasn't a thing until after World War 2. And the whole point is not to build on it!

The line that didn't happen in this part of South West London because of the introduction of the green belt was Chessington South-Leatherhead.

 

[JonathanH]

I think Crossrail 2 will be up and running before HS2!

Personally, I think Crossrail 2 won't even see shovels in the ground until HS2 is not being built - eg paused or complete.

No government is going to commit to having two major railway infrastructure projects happening concurrently, not least because of the inflationary impact of seeking to use scarce resources on both projects.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The other strategic rail build in the Wimbledon area was the link to Sutton via St Helier. A done deal with the Underground Group to keep the Northern Line for not going beyond Morden - the suburban line never, ever met it's costs as the area (once developed) - was picked clean by many buses taking passengers to Morden in great numbers.

In any case - the District line is exceedingly busy from Putney inwards with no space for any additional passengers - part of the logic in previous plans for pushing it into the (abandoned) Chelsea - Hackney line which Crossrail 2 largely substitutes for. Eventually.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The other strategic rail build in the Wimbledon area was the link to Sutton via St Helier. A done deal with the Underground Group to keep the Northern Line for not going beyond Morden - the suburban line never, ever met it's costs as the area (once developed) - was picked clean by many buses taking passengers to Morden in great numbers.

In any case - the District line is exceedingly busy from Putney inwards with no space for any additional passengers - part of the logic in previous plans for pushing it into the (abandoned) Chelsea - Hackney line which Crossrail 2 largely substitutes for. Eventually.

Didn't the District start work on four tracking that section? For the Sutton services and assumingly for the Guildford services OP refers to? I believe I read the sidings at Parsons Green, intended to be fast lines, are all what was built of the widened section.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Didn't the District start work on four tracking that section? For the Sutton services and assumingly for the Guildford services OP refers to? I believe I read the sidings at Parsons Green, intended to be fast lines, are all what was built of the widened section.

Yes indeed - the brilliant 2 volume District Line history by Mike Horne (RIP) covers the painful development of the Wimbledon and Sutton covers this partial 4 tracking scheme - land which was used for stabling eventually.

 

[MotCO]

Personally, I think Crossrail 2 won't even see shovels in the ground until HS2 is not being built - eg paused or complete.

No government is going to commit to having two major railway infrastructure projects happening concurrently, not least because of the inflationary impact of seeking to use scarce resources on both projects.

But surely, the planning time and time getting an Act approved would mean that Crossrail 2 will not start for 10 - 15 years, by which time HS2 should be up and running.

 

[JonathanH]

But surely, the planning time and time getting an Act approved would mean that Crossrail 2 will not start for 10 - 15 years, by which time HS2 should be up and running.

Isn't that what I was suggesting? Building starting some time between 2040 and 2045, so completion potentially in the 2050s? Who knows what may have happened by then?

Even then, isn't the Bakerloo line extension ahead in TfL's wish list (and easier).

Both of those are well before any consideration of taking the District Line to Guildford.

 

[RobShipway]

Personally, I think Crossrail 2 won't even see shovels in the ground until HS2 is not being built - eg paused or complete.

No government is going to commit to having two major railway infrastructure projects happening concurrently, not least because of the inflationary impact of seeking to use scarce resources on both projects.

So the fact that Crossrail was still being built, when commitment to HS2 I believe was given is just coincidence then? Also, through this time you have extension of an Underground line to Battersea Power station with teh Northern Line extension. Is there not also another extension of the Overground that have been completed to Barking Riverside within the last 12 months?

I can see planning happening for Crossrail 2 and approval given, but that I believe will be when the structural foundations are in place for HS2.

Even though the Elizabeth line does serve area outside of London, the line is more for Londoners than those from Reading and Abbey Wood.

My point being is that HS2 is a project that effects the who;e of the UK, whereas Crossrail, Northern Line extension and extending the Overground to Barking Riverside are issues that effected London and needed resolving, which is exactly what Crossrail 2 is as well. If the projects for Crossrail, Northern Line Extension and extension of the Overground can take place at the same time, then why is that Crossrail 2 cannot take place while HS2 is being built?

The only issue I find that would stop Crossrail 2 happening until HS2 is complete, is funding and as to who is going to be picking up the tab of the cost of the project.

 

[Snow1964]

There is some confusion here, the District line (then District Railway) initially wanted to extend its line from Hounslow. The line ended at a bridge abutment facing south (its long gone, Hounslow bus garage is now on the site). The station being replaced by current Hounslow East on a later line (now used by Piccadilly line to Heathrow)

It would have headed towards Whitton (near where Twickenham Rugby stadium is nowadays), crossed the LSWR line and joined the line towards Kingston near Strawberry Hill. But at the time District Railway was skint and couldn't afford it, and was some local objections.

The District Railway later tried to get extensions beyond Wimbledon, but would have required parallel tracks. Ultimately they didn't want to (or couldn't afford to) contribute to the widening. The LSWR did a lot of work towards the 6 tracking from about 1910 until work fizzled out during WW1 in 1915. Lots of bridges from Clapham Cutting to Hampton Court junction were rebuilt and have room for the 6 tracks, although some bits of the extra trackbed have been blocked by signalling, new structures and cable runs in more recent years. Which is why now expensive to finish the widening and Crossrail 2 isn't able to use much of the previously cleared space.

The LSWR added 4 rail electrification for District from Putney to Wimbledon (and Hammersmith-Richmond) around 1904. Electrified Kingston loop and to Hampton Court /Claygate in 1916, but electrification didn't get beyond Claygate on Guildford new line until 1925

The District did later look at extensions beyond Wimbledon, but it all ended in a big agreement with then new Southern Railway that District wouldn't expand beyond Wimbledon, Northern line expansion wouldn't go beyond Morden and Wimbledon and Sutton line would be built.

The other new line was the Leatherhead loop, opened to Tolworth, and extended to Chessington, but WW2 halted it. I believe about another half mile was added during war as sidings. But Green Belt killed remainder. If the wartime section was ever reopened to a new single platform station near Chalky Lane would be very close to Chessington World of Adventures theme park.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve never heard of a prospective District extension to Guildford; where can I read about it?

So the fact that Crossrail was still being built, when commitment to HS2 I believe was given is just coincidence then?

That’s more because Crossrail was running ‘a few’ years late.

I can see planning happening for Crossrail 2 and approval given, but that I believe will be when the structural foundations are in place for HS2.

The ‘planning‘ (feasibility and initial development) for Crossrail 2 is done, and all sitting on virtual shelves at TfLs offices, from when it was paused a few years back. To get from that to approval needs about 5 years (2 years prep for a Hybrid bill, 2 years passage through Parliament, and a year of post Royal assent mobilisation) - that’s the point where the Government would commit to construction and approve it.

So if Government asked TfL to restart Crossrail 2 on Monday, it wouldn’t be approved for construction until late 2028. By then there will be trains running on HS2 (albeit probably not in passenger service).

The ‘structural foundations’ of HS2 are already largely in place for Phase1.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I’ve never heard of a prospective District extension to Guildford; where can I read about it?

The Underground Line to Guildford

 

[RobShipway]

I’ve never heard of a prospective District extension to Guildford; where can I read about it?



That’s more because Crossrail was running ‘a few’ years late.




The ‘planning‘ (feasibility and initial development) for Crossrail 2 is done, and all sitting on virtual shelves at TfLs offices, from when it was paused a few years back. To get from that to approval needs about 5 years (2 years prep for a Hybrid bill, 2 years passage through Parliament, and a year of post Royal assent mobilisation) - that’s the point where the Government would commit to construction and approve it.

So if Government asked TfL to restart Crossrail 2 on Monday, it wouldn’t be approved for construction until late 2028. By then there will be trains running on HS2 (albeit probably not in passenger service).

The ‘structural foundations’ of HS2 are already largely in place for Phase1.

My point being, that several projects can be going on at the same time, whether they have gone through the approval stages and are being built or awaiting to go through the approval stages, such as Crossrail 2.

As you point out @Bald Rick, the Crossrail 2 bill could start on Monday and be approved in the next 5 - 7 years and yes, by which time HS2 is built and possibly trains have started running on it. But Crossrail 2, does not need to be waiting for HS2 to be built and completed, prior to seeking approval as @JonathanH is suggesting. Besides Crossrail 2, would be coming from budgets from the London Mayor, not from the UK Government budgets. Yes, Crossrail 2 still needs approval through Parliament and Royal Assent, but that is up to London Mayor's TFL office to achieve for the taxpayers of London, not the tax payers of the whole of the UK which is the case with HS2.

 

[JonathanH]

Besides Crossrail 2, would be coming from budgets from the London Mayor, not from the UK Government budgets.

I'm pretty sure London can't raise enough finance on its own to fund Crossrail 2 without recourse to the UK government. It didn't fund all of the Elizabeth Line work.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’ve never heard of a prospective District extension to Guildford; where can I read about it?

It seems to have originally been a proposed (1880) “Guildford, Kingston and London Railway” that would aim towards Fulham (Putney Bridge) then have running powers over the MDR to various terminating points, eg Kensington and Addison Rd (Olympia). The District apparently denied any involvement.

One of numerous unfunded proposals around London that were effectively squashed by the local mainline company, in this case the LSWR.

The above summary was distilled from the wiki article on the Guildford new line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Guildford_line

 

[Bald Rick]

Besides Crossrail 2, would be coming from budgets from the London Mayor, not from the UK Government budgets. Yes, Crossrail 2 still needs approval through Parliament and Royal Assent, but that is up to London Mayor's TFL office to achieve for the taxpayers of London, not the tax payers of the whole of the UK which is the case with HS2.

Not so. London can’t afford it on its own. In the same way that London couldn’t afford Crossrail 1 on its own.

And in order to get approval through Parliament, the project would need explicit Government support.

 

[RobShipway]

Not so. London can’t afford it on its own. In the same way that London couldn’t afford Crossrail 1 on its own.

And in order to get approval through Parliament, the project would need explicit Government support.

Well, comments I have seen is that if London wants Crossrail 2 then it needs to look as to how it can afford it from the budgets for the London Mayor and that UK transport budgets in the future, will be used over the next 20 - 30 years for other areas of the country. That means Crossrail 2 is unlikely to happen probably much before about 2060 in getting approval.

As many have said in these forums, the Government does need to focus more so on improving public transport in other areas of the country, than just improving the transport situation in London.