Do heritage rail staff, paid or volunteers, join a rail union?

[Howardh]

Thinking two things, the obvious one is they could well be called out on strike (!!), but more importantly would they join a railway union, despite being volunteers, for self-protection in case they cause an accident - or something happens to them and they need "free" legal advice/help?

 

[Gloster]

Back around 1976 my mother banned me from joining one of the Welsh railway societies, the Ffestiniog (I think), because they allowed employees to be members of the NUR. I just wanted to join the preservation society and possibly work as a volunteer, not be a full-time employee.

 

[PupCuff]

Thinking two things, the obvious one is they could well be called out on strike (!!), but more importantly would they join a railway union, despite being volunteers, for self-protection in case they cause an accident - or something happens to them and they need "free" legal advice/help?

The short answer is no. There's not much protection a trade union could offer a volunteer in the circumstances of them causing an accident, even if they allowed them to join.

The trade unions whether heritage or "big railway" don't generally provide an indemnity insurance service (any such case would be against the heritage railway itself anyway as it will pretty much always be liable for the acts or omissions of the persons under its control) and there's no real option for indemnity against prosecution if that circumstance were to occur.

TUs may provide support in the case of tribunals etc for paid staff but it's unlikely to be seen as within their scope for rail unions to support heritage rail staff in these cases.

Most heritage railways have a supporting society who will be able to provide some general support to volunteers in some shape or form.

 

[Howardh]

The short answer is no. There's not much protection a trade union could offer a volunteer in the circumstances of them causing an accident, even if they allowed them to join.

The trade unions whether heritage or "big railway" don't generally provide an indemnity insurance service (any such case would be against the heritage railway itself anyway as it will pretty much always be liable for the acts or omissions of the persons under its control) and there's no real option for indemnity against prosecution if that circumstance were to occur.

TUs may provide support in the case of tribunals etc for paid staff but it's unlikely to be seen as within their scope for rail unions to support heritage rail staff in these cases.

Most heritage railways have a supporting society who will be able to provide some general support to volunteers in some shape or form.

Thanks for that!

 

[jamieP]

Paid staff on the NYMR are part of the RMT.

 

[paul1609]

Some K & ESR paid staff are also members of the RMT and I know at least one case of a rail union supporting a heritage railway paid staff member at an employment tribunal.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The Dart Valley Railway as it was,had full time employees who were union members. Not sure if that’s still the case since the split.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The Severn Valley Railway at one time had an organisation called the Severn Valley Railway Association which was formed after Nabarro debacle to act as a kind of Union for working members.

Since at the SVR there is already a seperate company representing members, and which as a major shareholder has more power over the operating company, it was eventually wound up.

I would guess that actual Rail Union would be fundamentally opposed to the legimitisation of unpaid staff as 'real' railwaymen, even if they were involved in operating on the main line network.

 

[DarloRich]

it is, of course, possible that people working in any capacity on a preserved railway may bring thier existing union membership with them.

 

[LowLevel]

Some railways do have union membership and recognition. It isn't a large number though.

 

[1Q18]

The workshop staff at Crich Tramway Village are unionised, I’m not sure what union, but I suspect it’s one of the general ones.

 

[fireftrm]

Volunteers who are Union members would receive legal assistance as any member, but clealry no employment assistance. So the answer is a very simple YES. Paid staff as members - again a simple YES

 

[Haywain]

the obvious one is they could well be called out on strike (!!),

They could, but it would still have the same requirements as on the 'big' railway - a ballot, 14 days notice etc. And, just the same as on the 'big' railway, the service could be maintained using management and volunteers subject to them meeting the relevant qualification and safety requirements.

 

[6Gman]

Way back in around 1983 there was a dispute between management and (paid) staff on the Ffestiniog Railway over pay. Not sure whether there was a trade union involvement.

The reason I remember this is that (believe it or not, it's true) I wrote a parody song on the theme for a radio programme on BBC Radio Cymru.

My recollection is that the increase offered was 2% and that the manager was named Pollock (or similar), simply because they featured in the lyrics!

As best I can remember it was something like:

Rhyw dipyn back o yrrwr ydwyf ar rheilffordd ym Mhort
Mynd a steamers i 'Stiniog, wel dyna chi sbort
Ond daeth (struggling to remember the next two lines)
Mr Pollock a ddywedodd dwy y gant y gewch chi

Wel, ie fel petaswn, coeliwch chwi byth
Mr Pollock, wel ewch ar eich beic
Os dwy y cant yw y cynnig
Bydd yr hogiau ar streic!

I'm a bit of a driver on the railway in Port (Porthmadog)
Taking steamers to Ffestiniog, there's sport
.....
.....
MrPollock said you can have two percent

Well, you wouldn't believe it
Mr Pollock, get on your bike (a topical reference then)
If two per cent is the offer
The boys will be on strike!

Not going to win a Nobel Prize for literature (at least bike and strike rhyme), but an example of a dispute on a heritage railway.

 

[mjc]

They could, but it would still have the same requirements as on the 'big' railway - a ballot, 14 days notice etc. And, just the same as on the 'big' railway, the service could be maintained using management and volunteers subject to them meeting the relevant qualification and safety requirements.

I’m not sure it would have the same requirements in terms of ballot turnout and notice…those requirements are about unions and protection of rights etc in the employment context, volunteers going on strike is just ‘not volunteering’.

 

[Haywain]

I’m not sure it would have the same requirements in terms of ballot turnout and notice…those requirements are about unions and protection of rights etc in the employment context, volunteers going on strike is just ‘not volunteering’.

I would have thought it would be fairly obvious that I was referring to paid employees.

 

[Gloster]

They could, but it would still have the same requirements as on the 'big' railway - a ballot, 14 days notice etc. And, just the same as on the 'big' railway, the service could be maintained using management and volunteers subject to them meeting the relevant qualification and safety requirements.

I would presume that if a preserved railway’s own staff were out on strike volunteers who were professional railwaymen and union members would not work. Certainly it would be an interesting situation if a RMT member acted as a strike breaker on a preserved line. I presume that it would be seen by the union in the same light as the situation, were it to be possible, of an employee of one TOC covering strike days on another TOC on their rest days. (A situation which I presume is not legally possible.) And what happens if, say, an RMT guard on a TOC is passed to act as a driver on a preserved railway and does so during a strike by ASLEF. All this is highly hypothetical.

 

[Haywain]

I would presume that if a preserved railway’s own staff were out on strike volunteers who were professional railwaymen and union members would not work.

The nature of volunteering is having a choice. However, it is no business of a union what people do outside of the role in which they are a union member. In TOCs there are plenty of union members who are in management roles covering during strikes by members of the same unions.

And what happens if, say, an RMT guard on a TOC is passed to act as a driver on a preserved railway and does so during a strike by ASLEF.

The train runs. That's all that happens.

 

[LowLevel]

I would presume that if a preserved railway’s own staff were out on strike volunteers who were professional railwaymen and union members would not work. Certainly it would be an interesting situation if a RMT member acted as a strike breaker on a preserved line. I presume that it would be seen by the union in the same light as the situation, were it to be possible, of an employee of one TOC covering strike days on another TOC on their rest days. (A situation which I presume is not legally possible.) And what happens if, say, an RMT guard on a TOC is passed to act as a driver on a preserved railway and does so during a strike by ASLEF. All this is highly hypothetical.

It gets complicated. I'm an RMT guard as well as a heritage railway volunteer guard and also a zero hours non union guard for a charter operator (they don't recognise the RMT for collective bargaining).

Part of the issue is the heritage railway in question doesn't employ "guards" or "drivers", they employ engineering and operations staff who are passed to work as those grades as required, and whom often work in mixed teams with volunteers undertaking the same roles - I might work as a volunteer guard with a paid driver, or be a volunteer duty manager supervising a whole range of paid staff undertaking operational duties.

Consequently it would be a bit hard to say anyone covering those particular roles would be strike breaking as a volunteer as the paid staff have no booked work in operational roles - they can be required to do them one day, or volunteers might cover them all the next.

I wouldn't however sit in their chairs in the office doing the paperwork and back office duties etc that is their sole remit if they were on strike.

As for my work as a charter guard, I won't work for them when I'm on strike, and neither will the drivers. Some of the guards are not in a union at all and not bound by the same compulsion but those of us who are, the management tend to respect our feelings on the matter.

 

[mjc]

I would have thought it would be fairly obvious that I was referring to paid employees.

Ah, sorry, no it wasn’t - I think I’d assumed that was so obvious as to not need saying if it was about employees, and it’s not a matter of the same rules applying as apply to the ‘big’ railway but simply the law of the land.
However with that clarification I do agree with you.

 

[paul1609]

It gets complicated. I'm an RMT guard as well as a heritage railway volunteer guard and also a zero hours non union guard for a charter operator (they don't recognise the RMT for collective bargaining).

Part of the issue is the heritage railway in question doesn't employ "guards" or "drivers", they employ engineering and operations staff who are passed to work as those grades as required, and whom often work in mixed teams with volunteers undertaking the same roles - I might work as a volunteer guard with a paid driver, or be a volunteer duty manager supervising a whole range of paid staff undertaking operational duties.

Consequently it would be a bit hard to say anyone covering those particular roles would be strike breaking as a volunteer as the paid staff have no booked work in operational roles - they can be required to do them one day, or volunteers might cover them all the next.

I wouldn't however sit in their chairs in the office doing the paperwork and back office duties etc that is their sole remit if they were on strike.

As for my work as a charter guard, I won't work for them when I'm on strike, and neither will the drivers. Some of the guards are not in a union at all and not bound by the same compulsion but those of us who are, the management tend to respect our feelings on the matter.

You could make it even more complicated by volunteering on the Spa Valley where between Groombridge and Eridge the level crossings on the heritage line are supervised by NR Signallers (some RMT members)!

 

[a340egkk]

You could make it even more complicated by volunteering on the Spa Valley where between Groombridge and Eridge the level crossings on the heritage line are supervised by NR Signallers (some RMT members)!

It doesn't make it more complicated. Previously when Oxted signal box was not manned due to strike action, we didn't run on the mainline section, for reasons not just limited to Forge Farm Crossing. However, we have now agreed an method of operation on days where Oxted box is closed, and so from that (operational) perspective strikes no longer affect us (commercially is another story).

At no point does volunteering on a heritage line even relate to or be affected any personal membership of a mainline union.

 

[Gloster]

It doesn't make it more complicated. Previously when Oxted signal box was not manned due to strike action, we didn't run on the mainline section, for reasons not just limited to Forge Farm Crossing. However, we have now agreed an method of operation on days where Oxted box is closed, and so from that (operational) perspective strikes no longer affect us (commercially is another story).

At no point does volunteering on a heritage line even relate to or be affected any personal membership of a mainline union.

I have to say that, if I were still a railway employee and also a volunteer on the railway, I would make it quite clear that I would not work on any day when the RMT was on strike and it was necessary to have a special arrangement for the preserved line. On strike is on strike. For that matter, I probably wouldn’t work on any line, even if it was completely separate from the national network: it is a strike, not a buckshee day off.

* - It is thirty-five years since I worked for BR, but I was an NUR rep, even if only at the lowest level.

 

[a340egkk]

I have to say that, if I were still a railway employee and also a volunteer on the railway, I would make it quite clear that I would not work on any day when the RMT was on strike and it was necessary to have a special arrangement for the preserved line. On strike is on strike. For that matter, I probably wouldn’t work on any line, even if it was completely separate from the national network: it is a strike, not a buckshee day off.

* - It is thirty-five years since I worked for BR, but I was an NUR rep, even if only at the lowest level.

… and if it was a rostered rest day or pre-existing annual leave because the volunteering rosters are generally done a month or more in advance?

 

[paul1609]

Guys it was supposed to be a jovial remark to low level (whom I know) not a criticism of the Spa (of which Im a member) or an in depth analysis of its relationship with the RMT!

 

[Vespa]

The Severn Valley Railway at one time had an organisation called the Severn Valley Railway Association which was formed after Nabarro debacle to act as a kind of Union for working members.

Since at the SVR there is already a seperate company representing members, and which as a major shareholder has more power over the operating company, it was eventually wound up.

I would guess that actual Rail Union would be fundamentally opposed to the legimitisation of unpaid staff as 'real' railwaymen, even if they were involved in operating on the main line network.

What was the Nabarro debacle ?

 

[Zontar]

Way back in around 1983 there was a dispute between management and (paid) staff on the Ffestiniog Railway over pay. Not sure whether there was a trade union involvement.

The reason I remember this is that (believe it or not, it's true) I wrote a parody song on the theme for a radio programme on BBC Radio Cymru.

My recollection is that the increase offered was 2% and that the manager was named Pollock (or similar), simply because they featured in the lyrics!

As best I can remember it was something like:

Rhyw dipyn back o yrrwr ydwyf ar rheilffordd ym Mhort
Mynd a steamers i 'Stiniog, wel dyna chi sbort
Ond daeth (struggling to remember the next two lines)
Mr Pollock a ddywedodd dwy y gant y gewch chi

Wel, ie fel petaswn, coeliwch chwi byth
Mr Pollock, wel ewch ar eich beic
Os dwy y cant yw y cynnig
Bydd yr hogiau ar streic!

I'm a bit of a driver on the railway in Port (Porthmadog)
Taking steamers to Ffestiniog, there's sport
.....
.....
MrPollock said you can have two percent

Well, you wouldn't believe it
Mr Pollock, get on your bike (a topical reference then)
If two per cent is the offer
The boys will be on strike!

Not going to win a Nobel Prize for literature (at least bike and strike rhyme), but an example of a dispute on a heritage railway.

Great story! Did they get the pay rise in the end?

 

[D6130]

What was the Nabarro debacle ?

Unfortunately I can't do a link from my phone, but if you go to PressReader.com and type 'Sir Gerald Nabarro and the Severn Valley Railway' in the search box, you can read all about it.

 

[Gloster]

Nabarro was a sufficiently well-known figure (of fun) to the general public that he was sent up by the Goodies as Sir Gerald Wheelbarrow, complete with a ridiculous moustache. He fully played up to his blimpish, ex-officer image.

 

[Egg Centric]

It gets complicated. I'm an RMT guard as well as a heritage railway volunteer guard and also a zero hours non union guard for a charter operator (they don't recognise the RMT for collective bargaining).

Part of the issue is the heritage railway in question doesn't employ "guards" or "drivers", they employ engineering and operations staff who are passed to work as those grades as required, and whom often work in mixed teams with volunteers undertaking the same roles - I might work as a volunteer guard with a paid driver, or be a volunteer duty manager supervising a whole range of paid staff undertaking operational duties.

Consequently it would be a bit hard to say anyone covering those particular roles would be strike breaking as a volunteer as the paid staff have no booked work in operational roles - they can be required to do them one day, or volunteers might cover them all the next.

I wouldn't however sit in their chairs in the office doing the paperwork and back office duties etc that is their sole remit if they were on strike.

As for my work as a charter guard, I won't work for them when I'm on strike, and neither will the drivers. Some of the guards are not in a union at all and not bound by the same compulsion but those of us who are, the management tend to respect our feelings on the matter.

Why would you strike when working for a totally different company which presumably does its own pay thing? What am I missing?

Presumably if that charter operator did something nasty you wouldn't quit your main job - which is the same sort of principle no?