do pax ever have 'the right' to be sold a ticket/penalty fare

[NightatLaira]

do pax ever have 'the right' to be sold a ticket/penalty fare in place of a UFN / MG11

This scenario was observed by me the other day on an early morning train into London Charing Cross which had come up from Hastings or somewhere.

I boarded with many other suited travellers on the 07:XX which is a typical commuter train with few or no seats remaining. There are hardly ever any ticket inspections at this time of day during the 25mins or so it takes to get between Sevenoaks and London Bridge.

This chap who was sitting diagonally opposite from me boarded with the rest of us. A few minutes into the journey the guard came by asking to see all tickets and passes (which is a rarity!). The chap who clearly didn't have a ticket then asked for 'a single from Hildenborough to London'. (I assume he'd changed from the slow to the fast lines at Sevenoaks)

'Why didn't you purchase a ticket before boarding?' the train manager asked.

The chap said something like: 'The machine was playing up this morning at Hildenborough and there was an even bigger queue as a consequence at the ticket office so I thought is buy one on here..'

The guard and this chap continued discussing the merits of this action for a short while, but rather than penalty faring him or selling him a ticket as might be expected, the guard appeared to issue to me what looked like an unpaid fare notice or MG11, the chap offered to buy a ticket several more times during the increasingly heated conversation but was told simply to 'present this to the unpaid fares window at Charing Cross on arrival'.

What exactly happened after his I'm not sure as I had to go to work and got off at London Bridge.

Are South Eastern clamping down more on travellers without tickets following the Stonegate city worker incident or is this standard practice for travellers without tickets now?

 

[island]

Passengers are legally obliged to purchase a ticket if there are operative ticketing facilities at their starting station. Anyone violating this law may be reported for prosecution. A penalty fare is a higher than normal fare chargeable to a passenger who makes a ticketing mistake. A passenger does not have "the right" to be dealt with via a PF.
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As for UPFNs though, a passenger is only issued a UPFN if they are being required to purchase a new ticket but cannot or do not pay for it on the spot.

 

[najaB]

Passengers are legally obliged to purchase a ticket if there are operative ticketing facilities at their starting station. Anyone violating this law may be reported for prosecution. A penalty fare is a higher than normal fare chargeable to a passenger who makes a ticketing mistake. A passenger does not have "the right" to be dealt with via a PF.

Wot he said.

A penalty fare is one option available to the TOC to deal with a ticketing irregularity. Since the passenger is 'in the wrong' it is the TOC's choice as to how to deal with it, not the passenger's.

 

[NightatLaira]

I think I see what you mean...

So are Penalty Fares essentially there for people who have made 'innocent mistakes' I.e. Buying the wrong sort of ticket which is not valid at a particular time etc.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You shouldn't get a Penalty Fare if your ticket is only invalid due to a time restriction. But your point is otherwise right, Penalty Fares are there for people who have made a mistake and that the RPI thinks have made a genuine mistake.

However the TOCs have cottoned on to the fact that they can make significantly more money from people if they threaten prosecution. A Penalty Fare for that journey would be £29, but a settlement to prevent prosecution would be £100+. Plus the Penalty Fare rules have clauses in them about excessive queue lengths, whereas a Byelaws prosecution puts no obligation on the TOC whatsoever.

Northern were allowed to get away with it, the likes of TfGM looking on lovingly as Serco ripped passengers off. The other TOCs noticed that Serco were raking it in and wanted some of the action too.

 

[RJ]

I think I see what you mean...

So are Penalty Fares essentially there for people who have made 'innocent mistakes' I.e. Buying the wrong sort of ticket which is not valid at a particular time etc.

Penalty Fares are for people who have not upheld their responsibility to hold and present a valid ticket for reasons under their control.