Do railstaff understand the prosecution procedures and consequences of their actions?

[fandroid]

A minimal bit of research (Wikipedia) tells me that they were introduced in 1989 at £10, not the £20 they later became. If correct, then the rules were intitially set with the penalty at the equivalent of £24.50 in February 2023 money (according to the Bank of England).

I suspect that being prosecuted and fined would have been far worse.

I don't know how common that was at the time though. The overt threat then seemed to be being made to pay a full ("open") fare with no railcard discount.

Don't forget the penalty fare is that sum or twice the normal fare, whichever is the greatest. The minimum threat was always significant. Whatever it cost an "offender" it was never going to be less than double the fare they had presumably failed to pay, and for short journeys it would be significantly bigger than that.

 

[AdamWW]

Don't forget the penalty fare is that sum or twice the normal fare, whichever is the greatest. The minimum threat was always significant. Whatever it cost an "offender" it was never going to be less than double the fare they had presumably failed to pay, and for short journeys it would be significantly bigger than that.

True but I was responding to a comment that £20 itself would have been a large deterrent when penalty fares were introduced.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I am probably in a minority here, but I do think that there is something wrong about guards routinely selling tickets without any warning that waiting until you're on the train to buy is illegal and there's just the odd poster on stations to warn passengers. My experience is that people genuinely have no idea they are breaking the law or how severe the consequences could be if they get unlucky. I don't think it's reasonable under the circumstances to say that "common sense" would say otherwise. Yes of course you need a ticket to travel, but when every time you travel you see the guard going down the train selling tickets to multiple people, why wouldn't you think that's OK?

There’s been many comments about guards selling tickets and not warning people, personally I have general chat about it and make sure people know they should have bought before boarding (or promise to pay etc)
But we also have the below cards we give out that explain everything too, I appreciate not everyone does this and it’s TOC specific but there are a lot of us that try, explain the consequences and give out information

 

[najaB]

True but I was responding to a comment that £20 itself would have been a large deterrent when penalty fares were introduced.

I never said it was a large deterrent, just that it was significantly more effective as deterrent than the same amount would be now (about double based on your figure).

Paying a £10 minimum rather than the actual 50p fare is probably the same or more effective as a £50 on a £4.50 fare.

 

[LowLevel]

We used to be able to print out a separate penalty fare warning to hand over along with the ticket but that functionality went many years ago. After that all our "on train" stock went over to having PF warnings in red in the back, though there was no differentiation between stock used on PF or not PF routes.

However, we've just changed to paper roll tickets this week and currently the back is just blank apart from an endorsements box.

 

[robbeech]

However, we've just changed to paper roll tickets this week and currently the back is just blank apart from an endorsements box.

OT but worth noting as I tend to buy cross London tickets on the train from my starting station when the TVM is playing up (they don’t like my fingers strangely, either that or my local one has a screen that goes way out of calibration very frequently). I know I can still use paper roll and show TfL staff but it’s sometimes a faff.

 

[LowLevel]

OT but worth noting as I tend to buy cross London tickets on the train from my starting station when the TVM is playing up (they don’t like my fingers strangely, either that or my local one has a screen that goes way out of calibration very frequently). I know I can still use paper roll and show TfL staff but it’s sometimes a faff.

You can't use paper roll as helpfully our ticket machines will now refuse to print such tickets, at all. Anything with a Maltese Cross just gets greyed out and you can't click on it.

Not enough people buy such tickets on board any more for it to be a real problem, direct them to a ticket office or TVM at an appropriate interchange is the new direction.

The machines are often out of calibration owing to the efforts of the local ferals trying to smash the screens with bottles or the like.

 

[robbeech]

The machines are often out of calibration owing to the efforts of the local ferals trying to smash the screens with bottles or the like.

I wish I was surprised by this.

 

[Krokodil]

You can't use paper roll as helpfully our ticket machines will now refuse to print such tickets, at all. Anything with a Maltese Cross just gets greyed out and you can't click on it.

Not enough people buy such tickets on board any more for it to be a real problem, direct them to a ticket office or TVM at an appropriate interchange is the new direction.

It's been the bane of my life for years. Passenger joins at an unmanned station with no booking office/functional TVM. They need a cross-London ticket or want to excess their existing ticket for a change of route but I can't do anything. It's poor customer service to direct someone to a TVM at an interchange station where they may be pressed for time.

 

[AdamWW]

It's been the bane of my life for years. Passenger joins at an unmanned station with no booking office/functional TVM. They need a cross-London ticket or want to excess their existing ticket for a change of route but I can't do anything. It's poor customer service to direct someone to a TVM at an interchange station where they may be pressed for time.

In which case don't they have the right to keep going until an interchange where they do have time or the end of their journey?

 

[robbeech]

In which case don't they have the right to keep going until an interchange where they do have time or the end of their journey?

They do but here in the real world by doing this they could encounter issues that may lead to a prosecution, which neatly brings us back in line with the topic. You could argue some authority to travel note could be made but many guards wouldn’t bother.

It's poor customer service to direct someone to a TVM at an interchange station where they may be pressed for time.

Indeed and they may be further pressed for time due to a failing within the railway that has forced them to try and change their ticket in the first place.

 

[Krokodil]

In which case don't they have the right to keep going until an interchange where they do have time or the end of their journey?

I'll sell them a ticket to London and direct them to the booking office to excess for the rest (Crewe usually has more generous connections). With ToDs there's not much I can do, though I do phone ahead to one booking office to print the tickets and collect them on the way through. I shouldn't have to go above and beyond like this, ticketing should be easy.

The other day (early in the morning before booking offices open) I did take advantage of two minutes in a platform with a conveniently-located TVM to help a passenger buy the right ticket without further issues.

 

[robbeech]

I'll sell them a ticket to London and direct them to the booking office to excess for the rest

Whilst this is helpful, the concern is many booking offices won’t / won’t know how to do it. Also this is fine at an interchange point if there’s time, but if for example you gave them a London terminals ticket and their next suitable change point was a London terminal then the ticket would have expired and thus shouldn’t ordinarily be excessed.
Of course the efforts above and beyond are definitely appreciated but it’s clear it’s a backwards step from the operators.

 

[[.n]]

I'll sell them a ticket to London and direct them to the booking office to excess for the rest (Crewe usually has more generous connections). With ToDs there's not much I can do, though I do phone ahead to one booking office to print the tickets and collect them on the way through. I shouldn't have to go above and beyond like this, ticketing should be easy.

The other day (early in the morning before booking offices open) I did take advantage of two minutes in a platform with a conveniently-located TVM to help a passenger buy the right ticket without further issues.

It is nerve wracking doing this though! I've taken advantage of the time at a station before to hop out (with the guards permission/knowledge) to collect a ToD etc.

 

[najaB]

Also this is fine at an interchange point if there’s time, but if for example you gave them a London terminals ticket and their next suitable change point was a London terminal then the ticket would have expired and thus shouldn’t ordinarily be excessed.

Wouldn't it be a zero-fare excess in any case?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Wouldn't it be a zero-fare excess in any case?

More than likely no

 

[Krokodil]

if for example you gave them a London terminals ticket and their next suitable change point was a London terminal then the ticket would have expired and thus shouldn’t ordinarily be excessed.

Which is why I tell them to get the excess sorted before they change for the London train. In theory TMs on London services ought to be able to be able to print CCSTs where needed, but it wouldn't surprise me if they've been deprived of the extra printer to save a few pennies.

 

[island]

Which is why I tell them to get the excess sorted before they change for the London train. In theory TMs on London services ought to be able to be able to print CCSTs where needed, but it wouldn't surprise me if they've been deprived of the extra printer to save a few pennies.

Won't apply on your patch but on LNER whilst guards are not equipped with CCST printers, they do have the capability to sell a cross-London ticket for collection at the ticket machines at Kings Cross. A receipt issued on paper roll ticket stock contains a 2D barcode to get through the ticket gates.

 

[AdamWW]

Won't apply on your patch but on LNER whilst guards are not equipped with CCST printers, they do have the capability to sell a cross-London ticket for collection at the ticket machines at Kings Cross. A receipt issued on paper roll ticket stock contains a 2D barcode to get through the ticket gates.

I read about that recently and was pleasantly surprised.

It is a slightly odd situation - it seems a bit much to ask that either TfL adds the ability to scan printed tickets just for cross-London transfers, or train guards retain the ability to print card tickets just for cross-London travel.

At one point "gate passes" were issued with cross-London tickets that wouldn't work the London Transport barriers. Maybe we could have machines at London termini that scan the code on an e-ticket and print a gate pass if appropriate?

 

[island]

There are a number of solutions to the vexed issue but none of the parties concerned are willing to take the steps or incur the cost necessary.

TfL (including its subsidiaries) would, I think, be perfectly happy to be rid of CCST acceptance completely.

I suppose a disposable Oyster/ITSO type card, of the sort used for retail one day bus & tram passes, would be one possibility.

 

[Krokodil]

Won't apply on your patch but on LNER whilst guards are not equipped with CCST printers, they do have the capability to sell a cross-London ticket for collection at the ticket machines at Kings Cross. A receipt issued on paper roll ticket stock contains a 2D barcode to get through the ticket gates.

That's an interesting solution which should be low-cost.

I did have a woman who was in a hurry and didn't want to risk a booking office queue at the interchange in case she missed her London train. So I sold her a ticket to Euston and advised her to seek out the TM onboard to see if they were able to excess, and if not she'd just need to sort out separate tickets for LU and the onward train. She would be claiming the costs back from her employer so was happy with this, as it wasn't extortionately more (I think it would have been £10 more than a through ticket, plus whatever a zone 1 single is these days).

 

[furlong]

but if for example you gave them a London terminals ticket and their next suitable change point was a London terminal then the ticket would have expired and thus shouldn’t ordinarily be excessed.

On the contrary, this is exactly the one situation where the passenger is entitled to an over-distance excess - a situation in which they were only able to purchase a ticket for the first part of their journey because the facilities they used couldn't offer tickets to the complete range of destinations.

In the situation where they were able to purchase the complete ticket but didn't, they have no entitlement to an over-distance excess, regardless of where they are on that journey. 'Expiry' is a myth in the context of over-distance excesses. That said, they seem often to be issued on a discretionary basis where there is no entitlement to one.

(4) (b) An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-
...
(v) travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his journey

[N.B. Other types of Excess Fares are not restricted in this way.]

 

[XAM2175]

TfL (including its subsidiaries) would, I think, be perfectly happy to be rid of CCST acceptance completely.

I suppose a disposable Oyster/ITSO type card, of the sort used for retail one day bus & tram passes, would be one possibility.

That would have been a reasonable approach ten-odd years ago, but it's been overtaken by more-recent developments. LU is simply going to install barcode readers on a handful of gates at relevant stations; there's been a thread about it already recently.

 

[Krokodil]

LU is simply going to install barcode readers on a handful of gates at relevant stations; there's been a thread about it already recently.

That's good news. Could you please link the thread?

 

[trek]

99% of my tickets are collected from GTR machines. I'll trawl through my pile of about 100 tickets in my drawer but I don't believe any carry such a warning.

In fact, here's a copy of all the unique CCST rears I have in my bundle, excluding nNetwork and Metrolink.

Ticket stock carrying PF warnings is only required to be used on-board trains of PF operators. Tickets issued from stations need not, and usually do not, carry warnings, as the warnings will be on posters in the stations.

Here's a GTR issued ticket with a penalty fare warning on CCST.

That's good news. Could you please link the thread?

Not sure if there is a thread, but this Freedom of Information request includes TfL's ticketting brief that indicates which stations are planned to get barcode readers.

 

[fandroid]

Not sure if there is a thread, but this Freedom of Information request includes TfL's ticketting brief that indicates which stations are planned to get barcode readers.

None of those stations listed by TfL (May/June 2022) is a major terminus where cross London journeys usually start and finish. They're all shared TfL-NR stations where passengers might pitch up at a TfL gateline with an e-ticket for a journey starting on an NR-only route.

 

[trek]

None of those stations listed by TfL (May/June 2022) is a major terminus where cross London journeys usually start and finish. They're all shared TfL-NR stations where passengers might pitch up at a TfL gateline with an e-ticket for a journey starting on an NR-only route.

Ah, sorry I thought that was what you meant.

I have heard of what you said being mooted, however haven't seen anything concrete that it was going to happen unlike the proposal for scanners at stations with shared LU/NR gates. Doesn't feel like we are any closer at all to cross-London/travelcard tickets being barcode enabled...

 

[Krokodil]

Ah, sorry I thought that was what you meant.

No, we're on about journeys between pairs of NR stations where a Maltese Cross permits LU/DLR services to be used to cover the gap between (for example) Euston and Victoria.

 

[Pompey00]

For some time now, reminded a few time more recently we see instances where rail staff (be it station staff, guards or dedicated revenue protection) give advice to passengers which can end up with the passenger getting into trouble, or more trouble than implied.

Some examples,
1) A passenger boards the same train they get 3 or 4 times a month with the intention of buying a ticket from the guard. There ARE ticketing facilities at their origin and what they are doing IS against the rules. It's unclear (and irrelevant) whether they know they're taking a chance or not. Every time for several years the guard has come through the train and sold a ticket. On a particular day the guard cannot sell a ticket due to a fault with their machine. The guard is apologetic (as if it is their fault the passenger doesn't have a ticket) and explains quite politely that the passenger need not worry as they'll be able to purchase a ticket when they get to where they are going which will allow them to exit the barriers.
When they get to their destination they are (rightly) issued a penalty fare or is referred for prosecution.

2) A passenger travels from an unstaffed station with no TVM and arrives at a staffed, barriered station and goes to pay for their ticket, the staff at the excess fares window is fully prepared to sell the correct ticket as they should but revenue teams spot an easy target (perhaps the passenger ticks some easy target boxes, the descriptions of which are not to discuss here) and disallows the perfectly legal transaction in favour of unlawfully issuing a penalty fare or referring for prosecution. When the passenger explains they had no previous opportunity to pay they are told that this is ok, all they have to do is appeal and explain and it will be cancelled.



In both of these cases, do the members of staff giving out these facts and information have the slightest clue about the processes and procedures they are describing?

The importance is one of the examples above (the first one) sees the passenger firmly in the wrong, but the second sees the railway in the wrong yet both examples show the staff they encounter essentially misleading the passenger into thinking the situation is less serious than it is. We can argue that in the first example the passenger should be issued with the necessary penalty but is it not about time it was made mandatory for all on board staff to at least explain the rules to passengers they encounter without a ticket, even if they then use discretion and go on to "let them off this time"?
Surely an organisation so fixated on cutting down on fare evaders would take every necessary step to inform its passengers of the rules to minimise the risk of passengers failing to understand and falling foul of the rules? One could assume that an organisation and its staff that deliberately avoids reminding passengers of the rules and wilfully assisting the breaking of these rules by selling tickets on board may actually be trying to encourage fare evasion due to the easy additional revenue it generates when people can be caught.

In the second example the railway sits in the wrong but misleads the passenger into thinking that the process they are going through is the correct one. When the passenger gets a letter through the post it quickly becomes clear that the member of revenue staff simply lied to them. The passenger is put into a position through no fault of their own whereby they are guilty of a criminal offence unless they can somehow prove they are innocent. We can argue until the cows come home that guilty until proven innocent is not the way things work but there are countless examples showing this to be the case on this forum, and it is ALWAYS the case outside court as no evidence is required to demand whatever figure the railway chooses. Either way, proving this innocence requires a level of knowledge about the railway that no regular passenger could possibly be expected to have, and indeed the railway makes difficult to obtain.

So the basis for the overall question here is as follows. Do railway staff KNOW the results and consequences of their actions?

In example 1, does the guard know that in actual fact there's a good chance the passenger (who we must remember IS in the wrong) could end up paying hundreds of pounds but decides to lie about the consequences to avoid confrontation, or because it's a game to them? Or are they actually genuinely unaware of what will happen?

In example 2, does the member of revenue team understand that once they take their details to refer for prosecution that there is no real chance to appeal unless it goes to court in which case the railway wins by default if the passenger doesn't have extensive knowledge of the rules as they will be able to provide no defence? Does this member of revenue staff understand that the appeals body staff wear the same shirts and use only advice given to them by the operator? Or, do they genuinely not have an understanding of the procedure and do genuinely think that the passenger will be able to resolve it easily with a phone call and paying nothing but the fare due over the phone? If the latter is true, what is it that makes them want to go through the whole rigmarole of filling in forms, if they were already trying to buy a ticket as per the rules, as we are told incredibly frequently these staff do not earn commission, they have no targets to meet and there are no internal or external incentives or competitions for them to write up the highest number of MG11s in a given time period.

I'd be really interested to hear from staff here that offer advice but also revenue staff to see what their views are on this.

Good evening, I currently work as Gateline assistant and as part of the job we are not allowed to let anyone board a train without a valid ticket or travel permit or other reasons which I will explain. But if we was to do this us the staff would end up getting told of by management or revenue if the person was to get caught. The only times I will let a person through is if they have cash and the cash tvm is broken or the ticket office is closed/not able buy from any of them the facilities due to technical issues etc or they are trying buy certain ticket which can only be purchased from the ticket office at their destination or guard. Unfortunately we have to make people miss the trains to work or meetings due to the fact we are not allowed to let them in without the valid ticket or permit or they will face a £100 fine plus the fee of the single fare if caught. It does make you feel bad but it’s part of the job and when we don’t let them through we get abused by customers and just have to take it on the chin getting swore at , attacked , spat at or even being called a jobs worth even know we are saving them from receiving the fine. Leaving the station is different reason if they don’t have a ticket when trying to get out we will send to the ticket office if open or tvm and only a small percentage will actually get the ticket others will walk away which then we have write down in our logs and report to revenue protection which will monitor that station and put manned revenue protection officers there if needed.

 

[philthetube]

It's been the bane of my life for years. Passenger joins at an unmanned station with no booking office/functional TVM. They need a cross-London ticket or want to excess their existing ticket for a change of route but I can't do anything. It's poor customer service to direct someone to a TVM at an interchange station where they may be pressed for time.

In which case don't they have the right to keep going until an interchange where they do have time or the end of their journey?

Could you run off some blank bog roll ticket and endorse it?