Do railways discriminate against colourblind people?

[valenta]

Inspired by a thread I have just read on here it seems to me that those who are colourblind and choose to work on the railways as a driver are severely discriminated against by the signalling system. Whilst I'm aware of the obvious cost of overhauling the entire signalling system on the railway surely a more accessible scheme could be introduced gradually - perhaps a version of the old style signals. Would be interested to hear other thoughts on this.

Thanks

 

[RPM]

Well where would this end? Does the railway discriminate against deaf or blind people? Should we therefore spend millions finding a way of signalling trains so deaf/blind people can apply to be drivers? What about wheelchair access to cabs or to the lineside? Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere based upon what is practical in engineering terms and what is acceptable in cost terms. It strikes me at the present time that this line has been drawn in the right place. Social & technological changes might move this line in the future, but not the near future.

 

[najaB]

Inspired by a thread I have just read on here it seems to me that those who are colourblind and choose to work on the railways as a driver are severely discriminated against by the signalling system. Whilst I'm aware of the obvious cost of overhauling the entire signalling system on the railway surely a more accessible scheme could be introduced gradually - perhaps a version of the old style signals. Would be interested to hear other thoughts on this.

Thanks

In-cab signalling technology - e.g. ETCS - will mean that drivers don't have to look out for coloured lights at the trackside. Until it's widespread there's not much else that can/will be done.

 

[HSTEd]

Well ETCS would render colour blindness moot since there will be no lineside signals left.

But this is more than a little silly - perhaps we should spend millions installing auditory systems so people who are entirely blind can be drivers?

 

[valenta]

Well where would this end? Does the railway discriminate against deaf or blind people? Should we therefore spend millions finding a way of signalling trains so deaf/blind people can apply to be drivers? What about wheelchair access to cabs or to the lineside? Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere based upon what is practical in engineering terms and what is acceptable in cost terms. It strikes me at the present time that this line has been drawn in the right place. Social & technological changes might move this line in the future, but not the near future.

Unfortunately the scale of change that would be needed to make railway driving accessible for deaf and blind people wouldn't be feasible at this time. However the amount of change needed to make railways accessible for colourblind would be far less and I still believe a new signalling system could be introduced gradually.

 

[HSTEd]

Semaphores are not going to be usable at night.

Colour lights are the best trackside signals available.

 

[valenta]

But this is more than a little silly - perhaps we should spend millions installing auditory systems so people who are entirely blind can be drivers?

It might seem silly to you, but for people who have a passion to pursue a career that is stopped by the type of signalling on a railway, it certainly isn't. I admit the railway cannot be accessible to all but a new signalling system to be introduced gradually would be far less complicated and expensive than the auditory systems you talk of.

 

[bluenoxid]

Is ATOS this desperate

 

[valenta]

Semaphores are not going to be usable at night.

Colour lights are the best trackside signals available.

Colours don't have to be used, illuminated arrows and lettering could be used.

 

[142094]

The term 'reasonably practicable' applies. It would not be reasonably practicable to change the whole of the UK's signalling system in order to accommodate those with colour blindness.

 

[jopsuk]

Many professions are legally given a pass on certain aspects of disability discrimination. On the railways, this covers colour blindness for any safety-critical roles. Obviously it also includes deafness, blindness, mobility issues and some mental illnesses.

 

[valenta]

The term 'reasonably practicable' applies. It would not be reasonably practicable to change the whole of the UK's signalling system in order to accommodate those with colour blindness.

Perhaps not immediately but could a scheme not be gradually introduced in the near future.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps not immediately but could a scheme not be gradually introduced in the near future.

You're solving a problem that doesn't really exist. There's no way that it makes sense to spend (no exaggeration) billions of pounds to fix a problem that affects at most 10% of the few hundred people who apply to drive trains annually.

 

[Bald Rick]

On the same basis, does the highways network also discriminate against colourblind people?

 

[142094]

Perhaps not immediately but could a scheme not be gradually introduced in the near future.

Well with in cab signalling, it could be introduced gradually. However this is being done for other reasons, so you'd have to be working to that timescale (which to say could be many decades).

 

[HSTEd]

It might seem silly to you, but for people who have a passion to pursue a career that is stopped by the type of signalling on a railway, it certainly isn't.

This is a tiny group of people.
You are suggesting we expend billions for the benefit of a few dozen people a year who would have chosen a career in a cab but can't because they are colourblind.

I admit the railway cannot be accessible to all but a new signalling system to be introduced gradually would be far less complicated and expensive than the auditory systems you talk of.

Like?

Colours don't have to be used, illuminated arrows and lettering could be used.

Now work out how you are going to make these arrows or letters easily differentiable in thick fog?
Telling a red lamp from a green lamp is far simpler than telling an upwards arrow from a downwards arrow or whatnot.
Especially when you are closing it down at 125mph.

 

[N Levers]

I'm lazy, an idiot and could not handle the responsibility of being a driver.

I am therefore being discriminated against because the railway won't hire drivers who are lazy idiots...

I'm not a ballet dancer... I would never be given the chance to be a ballet dancer... thats not discrimination it's a fact...

 

[valenta]

I'm not a ballet dancer... I would never be given the chance to be a ballet dancer... thats not discrimination it's a fact...

Why would you never be given the chance? It is not impossible for someone to become a ballet dancer however within the laws of the rail industry it is impossible to become a driver if colourblind.

 

[najaB]

...however within the laws of the rail industry it is impossible to become a driver if colourblind.

And it's impossible to become a pilot if you're blind. It's unfortunate for those people, but there's no way that it makes any kind of sense to spend billions of pounds to fix a problem that only affects dozens of people.

 

[3141]

I am colour blind. It's a feature of my life. I could not become a train driver or an airline pilot, and perhaps not an electrician or a telephone engineer either. If I'd wanted to be one of those it would just be bad luck - I could not. I don't think vast sums should be spent revising anything just to enable a small proportion of those who are colour blind who really want to follow one of those careers to do so.

Having said that, it does annoy me that awareness of colour blindness seems so limited, when so much attention is given to other problems that some people experience. There are always diagrams and plans in a mixture of colours that I find it hard to distinguish. In many cases it would be possible to make things clear by means of different patterns of hatching or shading.

But I've survived like this for 75 years and there are far worse problems.

 

[Hornet]

Can you imagine the fun a colour blind Electrician, Signal Technician or Cable Jointer would have.

 

[AM9]

I am colour blind. It's a feature of my life. I could not become a train driver or an airline pilot, and perhaps not an electrician or a telephone engineer either. If I'd wanted to be one of those it would just be bad luck - I could not. I don't think vast sums should be spent revising anything just to enable a small proportion of those who are colour blind who really want to follow one of those careers to do so.

Maybe there should be 'paradriving' of trains with lots of different classifications of ability. Then everybody can become a traindriver just as anybody determined enough can compete in the Olympics.
Not sure that many passengers (even colour blind ones) would be all that keen to travel on trains driven by people with limited faculties though.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Do Explosive Ordnance Disposal companies discriminate against colourblind people?

"No, I said cut the GREEN wire!"

**BOOM!**

 

[PermitToTravel]

On the same basis, does the highways network also discriminate against colourblind people?

The green in traffic lights is quite a blue shade, which helps to aid recognition by colourblind people. (I don't know if this is also true on the railways, or in the insulation of wires used by terrorists)

 

[Harbon 1]

If you're thinking of letters, isn't there a maximum speed theater indicators can be used for route indication?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Even with ETCS colour blindness will still be an issue, what about sections where hand signalling is being used?

 

[valenta]

This is a tiny group of people.
You are suggesting we expend billions for the benefit of a few dozen people

According to he Colour Blind Awareness Organisation, It affects 2.7 million in the UK so I wouldn't call it a tiny group people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there's no way that it makes any kind of sense to spend billions of pounds to fix a problem that only affects dozens of people.

This is an example of a lack of recognition of colourblindness, according to the Colour Blind Awareness Organisation, 2.4 million people suffer from colourblindness, 1 in 12 men in the world have the condition.

I'm not talking of a radical overhaul of the signalling system but it is perfectly possible to have a scheme in place whereby when existing signals are replaced, they are replaced by signals which are more accessible to colourblind people.

 

[455driver]

On the same basis, does the highways network also discriminate against colourblind people?

I used to work on the buses with someone who was completely red/green colour blind, when I asked what he did at traffic lights he replied that if the top one was lit it was red, if the bottom one was lit it was green!
Please note, that doesnt always work on the railways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The green in traffic lights is quite a blue shade, which helps to aid recognition by colourblind people. (I don't know if this is also true on the railways, or in the insulation of wires used by terrorists)

The older filament signals are but the new LED ones are much greener.

 

[jopsuk]

Please note, that doesnt always work on the railways.

In fact, isn't this more and more the case, with LED signals far more likely to be able to display all three colours in one "lamp"

 

[EM2]

I'm not talking of a radical overhaul of the signalling system but it is perfectly possible to have a scheme in place whereby when existing signals are replaced, they are replaced by signals which are more accessible to colourblind people.

But not all colourblind people are blind to the same colours. Whilst red/green blindness is the most common, there is also blue/yellow blindness and also conditions such as monochromacy, where sufferers cannot differentiate any colours at all.
What system can be devised that accommodate all these different conditions, and be usable at high speed as well as inclement conditions?
Do you really think you can distinguish a C from an E, or a D from a B, or a K from an R at that speed? Or -> from <- ?