Do Sleepers make money?

[142094]

In answer to the original question - it is difficult to answer to put it simply! Sleepers are generally loss making as they only can carry a certain maximum per day and the carriages are generally in use for less time per day - rolling stock stuck in a siding isn't making any money.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would say that in this case, it should be co-funded.

Given that I would say the service benefits Scotland far more than it does England I would say that at the very least the split should be 50:50.

 

[Bakerbloke]

I would use a sleeper a lot if it went from North Wales to the East calling to pick up near or at Liverpool and Manchester and dropping off at Ely, Cambridge and maybe finishing at Stansted or thereabouts. Just comfy recliners with decent leg room would suffice with a trolley service. In the reverse direction it could also call at Peterborough. I find the west east daytime trains take far too long and rely on too many connections if you try to avoid the slow liverpool to Norwich service.

Such trains could also be used as first class carriages for daytime services.
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Also I would run existing Scottish sleepers into Kent. Any journey from the north to say Canterbury is pretty long especially factoring in cross-London transfer.

For investment in new sleeper stock it needs more frequent ash clouds being spewed from Iceland.

 

[amcluesent]

Given that I would say the service benefits Scotland far more than it does England

Yep. carrying down Scottish MPs to vote on English only legislation isn't good. I suppose we could pay to terminate the train at Invershoogle?

 

[Essexman]

Sleepers will never make money unless luxury trains with very high fares.

But they are a service - as our railways are supposed to be.
They help the Scottish & Cornish economies and perhaps could do so more if the were marketed better.

If there were no sleepers I would travel to Scotland less often and our company would do less business in Scotland.
I would travel less often to Scotland & Cornwall for holidays.

 

[paul1609]

I reckon the Scottish sleepers will end with the completion of the first stage of HS2. I cant really see that there will be sufficient demand for the lowland sleeper once Euston to Glasgow/ Edinburgh daytime services drop significantly under 4 hours. I understand that the Glasgow portion is underthreat as people have deserted since WCML modernisation already. The economics of a highland service on its own must be unsustainable.

 

[jon0844]

This is the problem with public transport. The cost of providing the service can't take into consideration the benefits of providing that service in terms of what the person(s) using it may be travelling to do.

If (example) shutting a railway line meant that people and goods couldn't get to a factory twice a day, and that then meant the factory closed down and relocated to another part of the country, or even abroad, then as the bigger picture it was a disaster - while some accountant is happy to have saved loads of money closing down a loss making line.

Still, if they built new trains without so many cabins and the first class airline style seating/beds then they might just be able to increase the revenue by quite a bit.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I can just about to see the axing of the lowland sleeper being sold to the public. I really do not see the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William highland sleeper being axed. How would you sell that to the public ?

 

[142094]

How would you sell that to the public ?

You wouldn't - more than likely a template press release along the lines of:

"Scotrail regret to inform passengers that the Lowland Sleeper service will be discontinued with immediate effect. This is mainly due to low passenger numbers and inefficient use of resources. A through review of Scotrail's services has shown that the Sleeper service is economically unviable and Scotrail feels unable to financially support the service any longer. It is hoped that all staff will be allocated jobs in other areas within the company. Scotrail would like to thank the loyal customers for their support in using the Sleeper service in years past."

 

[HSTEd]

Couldnt you just add additional seated coaches to the rakes?

Im sure theres a market for overnight train services, although you would have to accelerate the timetable and add more stops. (The train could just sit at the sleeper destination for longer to maintain the overnight effect)

 

[142094]

Couldnt you just add additional seated coaches to the rakes?

Im sure theres a market for overnight train services, although you would have to accelerate the timetable and add more stops. (The train could just sit at the sleeper destination for longer to maintain the overnight effect)

Just depends on where the extra seating coaches will come from.

I have no idea how many overnight coach services there are in the country but I can see that there would be some market for students and others who want to travel down to get to London early morning without having to get up very early on the same day. However the problem with these types of passenger is that they normally don't want to pay that much - which is why coaches and Megabus do a decent trade these days.

 

[tbtc]

I can just about to see the axing of the lowland sleeper being sold to the public. I really do not see the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William highland sleeper being axed. How would you sell that to the public ?

You'd show that

• the sleeper needed a subsidy of (insert figure here) for each passenger last year
• the stock isn't Disabled Friendly
• it would cost (insert figure here) million pounds for new stock
• FSR/ Scottish Government are investing (insert figure here) in new EMUs for the newly electrified lines in the Central Belt that will create (insert figure here) number of jobs

I don't think there'd be the outrage amongst the public that some think, tbh. Amongst enthusiasts, yes, of course, but in these times of financial austerity spending millions to prop up the sleeper (inc cost of new stock) would be seen as wasteful (whilst there's no money to keep other public services open)

 

[Nym]

I don't think there'd be the outrage amongst the public that some think, tbh. Amongst enthusiasts, yes, of course, but in these times of financial austerity spending millions to prop up the sleeper (inc cost of new stock) would be seen as wasteful (whilst there's no money to keep other public services open)

Or closer to home, even have enough stock to be able to fit passengers onto the services, I don't mean in a seat, I mean physically fitting them onto the units!

 

[tbtc]

Or closer to home, even have enough stock to be able to fit passengers onto the services, I don't mean in a seat, I mean physically fitting them onto the units!

Fair point.

If its not economical to buy new DMUs for busy routes (that have no realistic hope of electrification any time soon) then I'd be amazed if there's money to spend on sleeper coaches that can only make three return journeys a week (maximum).

 

[HSTEd]

Well there is always all that rolling stock that people seem to rustle up to run loco hauled rakes in various threads.

Break the lowland sleeper in half and run each section to Glasgow/Edinburgh up the respective main lines, stopping at all Intercity serviced stations using Cl90s, probably fitted for push pull using DBSOs/DVTs.
This slashes the locomotive allotment and provides a service with far more potential as regards various journies than the current service, it should have no trouble making the journey in faster than the current sleeper does and could wait at the terminus platform till morning.
You would have a Cl90, five sleepers, one lounge, three seated carriages and one DVT/DBSO (which would be a fourth seated vehicle if the latter) serving each destination.

 

[Nym]

Stopping at more stations to be run as more of a 'normal' service, would you run via Manchester and Bolton on the WCML?

 

[HSTEd]

Stopping at more stations to be run as more of a 'normal' service, would you run via Manchester and Bolton on the WCML?

Well assuming the wire is in place to prevent having to run a drag.... yes I would but until then the gain in passengers does not make up for the operational complexities associated with it.

 

[Nym]

Well, yes, when wired. Late night services from Manchester out to Bolton, Wigan, Preston etc. would do well on their own, even moreso if they go onwards to Glasgow, business travellers go between manc and scotland too, not just London.

 

[HSTEd]

You have 7hr53m to cover the ground between Euston and Glasgow Central, and probably a similar amount of time on the ECML from King's Cross to Edinburgh, if we assume the train has a DBSO and is thus limited to 100mph..... how many stops could we have?

 

[4SRKT]

You don't want stops on the sleeper. Passengers who are there for a kip in the seated sleeper don't want late night drunks paying PTE fares to get on at Manchester and get off at Bolton. Likewise stopping and starting en route makes it more likely that you'd get less sleeping in the cabins, especially if there are crowds of revellers in the stations. In the past on the ECML and WCML there were separate overnight trains ('Nightriders') without sleeping cars, but unless you're going to run this it would be better continue with the sleepers as they are.

The sleepers are already 16 coaches long, and nothing longer can be fitted into the platforms at Euston. This means you can't add any more seated coaches: the seated coach for Fort William can't even be included in the rake. Sure, you could run a third train at massively increased overall cost, but this would have to be paid for entirely out of the revenues from the extra overnight seated passengers that drove its requirement. If you were going to run a third train you might as well leave the sleepers as they are and run a seated-only train to Glasgow doing more intermediate stops. If you were going to do this it would be sensible to use a Vomiter that would otherwise be idle at night and run it via Manchester.

 

[Nym]

ECML:
Cambridge (if electrified), Peterborough, Doncaster, Leeds, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh, Continue to Glasgow Central.

WCML, top&tail.
Watford, Milton Keynes, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, (Either: Wigan, Preston) (Or: Bolton, Preston) (Or: Bolton, Wigan, Preston), Lancaster, Carlisle, Caistars (Split) Glasgow and Edinbrugh.

Although like reverse square Johnson noise density (4KTRs) says, local passengers would mess it up, but just running silly late or overnights would be nice anyway.

 

[HSTEd]

You don't want stops on the sleeper. Passengers who are there for a kip in the seated sleeper don't want late night drunks paying PTE fares to get on at Manchester and get off at Bolton. Likewise stopping and starting en route makes it more likely that you'd get less sleeping in the cabins, especially if there are crowds of revellers in the stations. In the past on the ECML and WCML there were separate overnight trains without sleeping cars, but unless you're going to run this you might as well continue with the sleepers as they are.

Well you can probably put a routing "Not Sleeper" on PTE tickets or make Sleepers require "Sleeper Only" tickets to prevent drunks getting on the train for such short hops.
This is the problem, the existing sleeper is nowhere near sustainable.

EDIT: Splitting the train would require shunting work and would restrict the number of coaches that could go to each destination as they would all have to fit into one platform at Euston.
An easier solution would be to have the Sleeper to Glasgow go from King's Cross and the sleeper to Edinburgh go from Euston, so the trains crossover near Carstairs, everywhere retains trains to everywhere without splitting the trains, and the train staff could wake individual passengers who want to get off at the other stops.

 

[4SRKT]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more overnights as were there in my yoof, but then sleepers were more viable as domestic flights were more expensive and lots of oil men used them to get to Aberdeen. Most mail trains had a mk I SK or BSK attached which hugely expanded the overnight potential as well. Overnight holiday trains in the summer to Devon and Cornwall from Scotland, Northern England and London were the 1980s/90s equivalent of people getting up at 2 in the morning to avoid the traffic on the M5 and A303 today.

I remember the internal Scottish sleeper from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Inverness. I did this a few times on the cushions and it left Glasgow at 23:30. It was only after Dunblane when the last of the ****heads had got off that even thinking about sleep was possible.

 

[tbtc]

Well, yes, when wired. Late night services from Manchester out to Bolton, Wigan, Preston etc. would do well on their own, even moreso if they go onwards to Glasgow, business travellers go between manc and scotland too, not just London.

There are business travellers between various stations, but will they wait until three in the morning for a train home? The sleeper only "works" because it can leave London late in the evening and arrive in Scotland at (roughly) breakfast.

If you stop anywhere in Greater Manchester then I'd suggest Manchester Airport (where there may be people needing a departure/arrival during the middle of the night). If you have a day's business in Manchester would you want to arrive at three in the morning (with no hotel to go to), and then stick around until three the following morning for your train home?

 

[HSTEd]

There are business travellers between various stations, but will they wait until three in the morning for a train home? The sleeper only "works" because it can leave London late in the evening and arrive in Scotland at (roughly) breakfast.

If you stop anywhere in Greater Manchester then I'd suggest Manchester Airport (where there may be people needing a departure/arrival during the middle of the night). If you have a day's business in Manchester would you want to arrive at three in the morning (with no hotel to go to), and then stick around until three the following morning for your train home?

Even with half a dozen stops I imagine you could reach Manchester rather earlier than 3 in the morning if you could do 100mph all the way, as I understand it the sleeper runs slack at 80mph normally.

 

[4SRKT]

There are business travellers between various stations, but will they wait until three in the morning for a train home? The sleeper only "works" because it can leave London late in the evening and arrive in Scotland at (roughly) breakfast.

If you stop anywhere in Greater Manchester then I'd suggest Manchester Airport (where there may be people needing a departure/arrival during the middle of the night). If you have a day's business in Manchester would you want to arrive at three in the morning (with no hotel to go to), and then stick around until three the following morning for your train home?

You are absolutely correct. When I've been on the Highland Sleeper the only stations I've seen used apart from the termini are Dundee, Perth and Helensburgh Upper, the largest settlements on each route. Oh, I once saw someone get on at Aviemore as well. I once used it to get from Perth to Rochester and rather than wait until 23:20 in Perth I bought a cheap advance on the Highland Chieftain and rode 118 miles north to Inverness to pick the sleeper up there. My colleagues thought I was barking, but when you think about it it was pretty sensible.

 

[Nym]

There might be a better case for running the Highland sleeper via Manchester when the wires go up, (since it would be around midnight to 1am when it goes through)

 

[HSTEd]

People board the Night Riviera atleast some of the stations in Cornwall, I know because i've done it and I was far from alone on the platform at Liskeard

 

[4SRKT]

There might be a better case for running the Highland sleeper via Manchester when the wires go up, (since it would be around midnight to 1am when it goes through)

As a replacement for the Preston and Crewe stops I would agree. Manchester is much more central to the North of England and access would be greatly improved for the whole region.

The other problem with having stops is the inability to have diversionary routes. The Night Riviera doesn't stop between Reading and Taunton and I have been three different routes between them (the Desert, Reading > Swindon > Westbury, Reading > Pewsey > Bath > Bristol).
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People board the Night Riviera atleast some of the stations in Cornwall, I know because i've done it and I was far from alone on the platform at Liskeard

The Night Riviera is also a normal service train between Plymouth and Penzance though (as indeed it is all the way to Paddington). I bet not many board at Taunton at 01:30.

 

[tbtc]

Even with half a dozen stops I imagine you could reach Manchester rather earlier than 3 in the morning if you could do 100mph all the way, as I understand it the sleeper runs slack at 80mph normally.

I was just picking a "middle of the night" time, but I'd imagine any Manchester stop would have a fair bit of padding in it.

It makes more sense than Preston/Crewe, I guess (not sure what need there is for them), but would you have time to consider "sleep" for a journey of just half the way?

In fact, do people regularly use Preston/Crewe on the sleepers? And, if so, is this for Scottish journeys or London journeys?