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Do there exist any "peak" trains?

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stq123

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I've often heard the adage that there are no peak trains in the UK, just peak tickets - i.e. that whether any given train is peak or off-peak depends entirely on the ticket that you are holding. Are there any trains for which this is not true, and every ticket valid on the train is marked anytime or similar?
 
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redreni

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Maybe the fares experts will know.

I expect there may be some in the mornings, since most off-peak tickets have at least some morning peak restrictions. That said, for any given train departing a given station in the morning, in order to rule out the possible existence of an off-peak ticket valid on that train, the number of possible off-peak tickets that would be valid on the relevant route and TOC, for which you'd have to check the restriction code, would be enormous.

In practice, railway staff need only check the restriction code on tickets actually presented to them for travel on a given train, so they don't have to attempt to answer the question you're asking.

I don't know why, but some of them do seem to ask themselves that question, imagine they know the answer and then confidently proclaim "off-peak tickets are not valid on this service". And then we keep coming across examples of off-peak tickets that are valid on that service.

It is often said the reason for this is because the vast majority of passengers holding off-peak tickets won't be able to travel on the train in question and it is important to warn them. The obvious solution would be for guards and train managers to announce something like:

"Off-peak tickets with restriction codes [quote the restriction codes they see most often, are familiar with and are sure aren't valid on the departure in question] are not valid on this service. If you hold an off-peak ticket, please check the restriction code to see if you can travel on this service. [Repeat first sentence]"

The vast majority of passengers would see that their ticket had one of the restriction codes quoted in the announcement and would know it wasn't valid on that train. Anyone with an unusual restriction code could check their itinerary and/or the restriction code to establish if they were valid or not. Nobody would be misled or wrongly denied travel. Alternatively staff could just say nothing and then go round collecting any excess fares that may be due (after checking any unfamiliar restriction codes to establish validity or otherwise, of course).
 

Tazi Hupefi

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If you were at Norwich, I think you could make an announcement that Off Peak tickets are not valid on the 07:55 EMR service to Liverpool Lime Street.
 

BongoStar

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Are you looking for examples along the line of: "Any Elizabeth line leaving Reading between 4:30am and 8am will be a peak train regardless of where you board along the route". Then there are too many such point to point routes to list. Unless I have misunderstood the question.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Are you looking for examples along the line of: Any Elizabeth line leaving Reading between 4:30am and 8am will be a peak train regardless of where you board aling the route. Then there are too many such point to point routes to list. Unless I have misunderstood the question.
Plenty of Off Peak tickets are valid on Elizabeth line between those hours.

You could buy an Off Peak ticket from Hayes and Harlington to Rugby and it's valid all day on Elizabeth line, only restricted from Euston. Same if you board at Reading.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Are there any "peak" trains on a journey such as Lancaster->Glasgow Central? Off Peak Singles seem only to prohibit midweek travel on departures before 0415. The first train you could actually catch is the 0552.
 

BongoStar

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Plenty of Off Peak tickets are valid on Elizabeth line between those hours.

You could buy an Off Peak ticket from Hayes and Harlington to Rugby and it's valid all day on Elizabeth line, only restricted from Euston. Same if you board at Reading.

Yes, that's true. Lots of feeder legs have that. Elizabeth line can also help you avoid peak time restrictions in evening between London and Reading, depending on when and where you start.

I understood the question for trains end to end and not part of a multi leg journey. Single hop type. Perhaps OP can clarify.

I also forgot to mention Mon-Fri in the earlier post.
 

Watershed

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If you were at Norwich, I think you could make an announcement that Off Peak tickets are not valid on the 07:55 EMR service to Liverpool Lime Street.
Not so. For example this "via London" fare to Rugby only has relevant restrictions on departure from Euston. You could use it to take the 07:55 service as far as Ely and change there, albeit that would clearly be far from the fastest route.
 

JonathanH

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If you were at Norwich, I think you could make an announcement that Off Peak tickets are not valid on the 07:55 EMR service to Liverpool Lime Street.
Fairly sure that off-peak tickets with a 1A restriction would be valid on that if travelling into London to pick up an onward connection, since arrival time in London via Cambridge would be after 0959.
 

stq123

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Yes, that's true. Lots of feeder legs have that. Elizabeth line can also help you avoid peak time restrictions in evening between London and Reading, depending on when and where you start.

I understood the question for trains end to end and not part of a multi leg journey. Single hop type. Perhaps OP can clarify.

I also forgot to mention Mon-Fri in the earlier post.
i was thinking of things such as tazi’s example, yes - ie a train where it is impossible for a passenger with a ticket marked off peak or super off peak to not have to pay an excess
 

Starmill

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i was thinking of things such as tazi’s example, yes - ie a train where it is impossible for a passenger with a ticket marked off peak or super off peak to not have to pay an excess
For someone going anywhere in the county that's a tall order.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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i was thinking of things such as tazi’s example, yes - ie a train where it is impossible for a passenger with a ticket marked off peak or super off peak to not have to pay an excess
It's actually quite difficult, as there's trains like the one I suggested that no sane passenger would take, but are technically available to Off Peak ticket holders. Staff could make that announcement and 99.9% of the time they'd be absolutely correct.

I would suggest that if one exists, it's probably somewhere where CrossCountry serve the route and have blanket 2V (0930) restrictions.
 

PaulJ

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The 0425 Ramsgate to Victoria is off peak at Ramsgate and Dumpton Park, but peak from Broadstairs onwards.
 

stq123

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It's actually quite difficult, as there's trains like the one I suggested that no sane passenger would take, but are technically available to Off Peak ticket holders. Staff could make that announcement and 99.9% of the time they'd be absolutely correct.

I would suggest that if one exists, it's probably somewhere where CrossCountry serve the route and have blanket 2V (0930) restrictions.
what about a morning am long distance lner train into KGX? would there exist cases where someone else is pricing the flow?
 

Watershed

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To where? Everywhere on the network?
I think @PaulJ means for most journeys that have your typical C4/B1 etc. restriction, as these tend to apply to trains "timed to depart after 04:29".
 

30907

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Within ex-NSE there will always be fares to "outside the area" which are valid in the morning peak - but what about other conurbations?

For example, is there an unrestricted off-peak ticket valid from Shipley to Leeds before 0800? (TPE-set fares going East are more generous than LNER/XC...)

(Answer: actually yes - EMR set fares to stations in the East Midlands which are unrestricted. So that eliminates West Yorkshire...)

Greater Manchester or West Mids might produce something....
 

Starmill

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Within ex-NSE there will always be fares to "outside the area" which are valid in the morning peak - but what about other conurbations?

For example, is there an unrestricted off-peak ticket valid from Shipley to Leeds before 0800? (TPE-set fares going East are more generous than LNER/XC...)

(Answer: actually yes - EMR set fares to stations in the East Midlands which are unrestricted. So that eliminates West Yorkshire...)

Greater Manchester or West Mids might produce something....
I feel like one could be here all day if looking around like that.
 

yorkie

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I've often heard the adage that there are no peak trains in the UK, just peak tickets - i.e. that whether any given train is peak or off-peak depends entirely on the ticket that you are holding. Are there any trains for which this is not true, and every ticket valid on the train is marked anytime or similar?
I doubt it, given many longer distance fares are more generous, and also in some cases return portions can be valid even if outward portions (for the same origin/destination pair) are not.
If you were at Norwich, I think you could make an announcement that Off Peak tickets are not valid on the 07:55 EMR service to Liverpool Lime Street.
It's certainly not the case that no Off Peak tickets whatsoever would be valid on this departure from Norwich, even if the vast majority of flows for which customers would be using that train for, would be covered by restrictions.
 

A S Leib

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Are there any off-peak tickets which would be valid on the Flying Scotsman (05:40 Edinburgh, 07:02-07:04 Newcastle, 09:40 King's Cross)? There's no off-peak single from Edinburgh to King's Cross, the super off-peak single from Edinburgh to Finsbury Park isn't valid for London arrival until 11:17 and I don't know if there's any non-super off-peak, off-peak fares left which allow travel between Edinburgh and King's Cross via Newcastle; for e.g. Edinburgh – Southampton the only off-peak fares are not via London.
 

Starmill

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Are there any off-peak tickets which would be valid on the Flying Scotsman (05:40 Edinburgh, 07:02-07:04 Newcastle, 09:40 King's Cross)? There's no off-peak single from Edinburgh to King's Cross, the super off-peak single from Edinburgh to Finsbury Park isn't valid for London arrival until 11:17 and I don't know if there's any non-super off-peak, off-peak fares left which allow travel between Edinburgh and King's Cross via Newcastle; for e.g. Edinburgh – Southampton the only off-peak fares are not via London.
Yes.

I doubt anyone will be posting what it is in this thread however. It's probably fairly obvious why...
 

Bletchleyite

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There are routes where for local fares there is only an Anytime and no Off Peak. However, very long distance fares to that station would almost always produce one.
 

BongoStar

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I have checked a few common combinations for trains starting from Reading and as far as I could check, for any train departing Reading between 4:30-8:00am Mon-Fri, I could not find any offpeak fares to any station served by that train itself or stations along the route between those times. So this excludes those that require a change or an onward connection.

[Elizabeth line to London Paddington, SWR to Waterloo or CrossCountry to Manchester Piccadilly and stations within that route]
 

Haywain

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I think that there will be very few Off Peak tickets valid between Bedford (and Luton/Parkway) and St Pancras during the weekday morning peak. Even the "Network Rule" has ceased to exist with fares having time restrictions on arriving into London that are often more onerous than those leaving London on the subsequent 'inter-city' leg.
 

73128

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I have checked a few common combinations for trains starting from Reading and as far as I could check, for any train departing Reading between 4:30-8:00am Mon-Fri, I could not find any offpeak fares to any station served by that train itself or stations along the route between those times. So this excludes those that require a change or an onward connection.

[Elizabeth line to London Paddington, SWR to Waterloo or CrossCountry to Manchester Piccadilly and stations within that route]
but contactless via Tfl is off peak if you tap in (where ever you start) before 0630. Presumably this will apply to all those outer London suburban stations now being fitted for contactless too.
 
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