Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[Peter Sarf]

Thermal management was right from the off. Just about everything has them except the Nissan Leaf.

The earliest i3s are 63reg. Cheapest on autotrader is sub £6k and a 15 plate.

One thing about early EVs is that they were much more likely to be second cars to have as a runabout, and therefore tend to have low mileage.

But if you want to dip your toe in the EV market, given whatyou have said and driven before, I would wait a couple of years for the first Tesla 3s to hit 7 years old. The oldest are now 5 years old, and you can get them for around £15k, albeit with lots of miles (but as @trebor79 says, battery almost as good as new). Another couple of years and they will be under £10k. But 300+ mile range, and very quick charging.

I bought my first ever car, when I was in 6th form, for a price that is the equivalent of £7k now. It then cost me a fortune to keep going. With that in mind, a car of around £10k that will cost little to run is pretty good value.

Thankyou. To be fair I have done well with running costs. I have usually been well researched, found good service history and I suppose enough knowledge to mostly avoid the garages that rip one off.

I think an early EV that was a second car could be a parallel to some of my better ICE purchases.

 

[bspahh]

Returning to this thread with interest. I am researching a cheap second hand EV for a relative, needs to be higher than a regular hatchback to make it easier to get in/ out. I have been surprised to find loads of Peugeot e2008 and Vauxhall Mokka-e on the market, 2-3 years old, low mileage, decent spec, 200+mile range, under £15k. (Yes I know they are much the same behind the badge).

This is the same price range as a similar age / spec / petrol version of the Mokka.

For a young car that will cost next to nothing to maintain and little to run, that’s great value.

This is a video with a commentary on auctions for electric cars. He comments that the Stellantis Citroen DS3 /VauxhallMokka with a 50kWh battery has a real world range of 160-170 miles. A 2020 DS3 sold for £10,100. You need to add a £195 buyers fee onto that. You don't get much consumer protection.

You can get an electric MG MG5 from www.carwow.co.uk for not much more than that.
This link is about a 61kWh long range model for £20k. You can also get a 51kWh one for £18k. That has a 2023 registration, but under 100 miles, but its a retail price from a dealer where you will have more consumer protection than from an auction.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/mg-mg5-ev-61kwh-long-range-se-4404912 has some discussion on the deal.

 

[E27007]

This is a video with a commentary on auctions for electric cars. He comments that the Stellantis Citroen DS3 /VauxhallMokka with a 50kWh battery has a real world range of 160-170 miles. A 2020 DS3 sold for £10,100. You need to add a £195 buyers fee onto that. You don't get much consumer protection.

You can get an electric MG MG5 from www.carwow.co.uk for not much more than that.
This link is about a 61kWh long range model for £20k. You can also get a 51kWh one for £18k. That has a 2023 registration, but under 100 miles, but its a retail price from a dealer where you will have more consumer protection than from an auction.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/mg-mg5-ev-61kwh-long-range-se-4404912 has some discussion on the deal.

From the video the depreciation of some cars is simply eye-watering, the Jaguar I-pace , 2-years of age and 27,000 miles from new selling for £17,000 losing over £50,000 fron new.

 

[paul1609]

See above from various contributors. Loads of approx 10 year old Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes available sub £5k (and some sub £3k) albeit the Leafs have basic battery management tech and no battery thermal management, so suffer from higher rates of degradation. However all perfectly serviceable, if low range (they were low range when new, though).

Further up the price scale there‘s 10 year old BMW i3s for 6-8k, whilst further up again a 10 year old Tesla S with a 300+ mile range (which it will still have) plus all the toys can be yours for £15k.

Back in the day I had a 30kw leaf "company" car on the basis that I drove in central London to and from home and to Heathrow airport. In theory it had a range of 167 miles, in practice no matter how hard I tried 90 ish miles range on a mix of country lanes, a21 and M25 was about the best I could achieve.
After about 2 years battery performance had dropped to 70% in the gauge and that meant about 70 miles. I understand that's the norm and that they will typically go like that to about 50k miles when the battery will suddenly fail usually on low insulation.
Apparently the 24 kw battery fitted to earlier models goes on for ever with about 60 miles range but the 30kwh doesn't so I guess that it's a matter of knowing what your buying just like ICE bangers.

 

[trebor79]

See above from various contributors. Loads of approx 10 year old Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes available sub £5k (and some sub £3k) albeit the Leafs have basic battery management tech and no battery thermal management, so suffer from higher rates of degradation. However all perfectly serviceable, if low range (they were low range when new, though).

Further up the price scale there‘s 10 year old BMW i3s for 6-8k, whilst further up again a 10 year old Tesla S with a 300+ mile range (which it will still have) plus all the toys can be yours for £15k.

Actually if he's spending £3k a year on fuel he could lease a brand new or nearly new EV for no net increase in spend, assuming he can charge at home.

Thanks. When did the thermal management technology/feature become normal ?.
Maybe a stupid question as I guess from what you say about Tesla it varies from make to make.

Basically h anything other than a Leaf has a liquid cooled battery.

I will wait and see as from your reply it looks like a roughly 15 year old BMW i3 might be a possibility. Now to find out when they started making those.

No no no. Early i3s have a tiny battery. The i3 was/is very expensive for what it is. It's the first EV I drove (hire car) and it blew me away but I got in one again recently and it's a horrible car. Horrible interior, rough ride, noisy.
Why did your car have to be 15 years old?

It's worth noting that the latest Leaf was available via LeaseLoco for a little over £140 a month up to a few days ago (it may well return). Now I've never liked the look of the Leaf (the newer one isn't as ugly) but that's an absolute steal. If you can save £50-100 a month on petrol, it's a no-brainer. For 3 or 4 years you'll need to pay almost nothing as servicing is dirt cheap and you'll at most need to change the tyres (depending on mileage).

Exactly this. You can even lease used cars from Arval and others.
Stop focusing on age of the vehicle and focus on overall cost of driving your 18,000 miles a year.

 

[jon0844]

I've run some very old cars over the years, and have had many a bad experience (in one case the engine seized on the M25 and was ultimately written off). I know there are some very reliable cars out there, and some of my choices weren't great, but these days I don't want any unnecessary surprises and would not entertain owning such an old vehicle - at least not ICE.

I have said many times that I hope that an EV of 5-10 years of age will likely still be very reliable, or at least very easy to check over. Indeed, it's probably a sensor for an advanced safety system that will fail - and they are the same whether ICE or electric. Fortunately there are cars with less tech that might be a safer bet.

However, if you're leasing a new car for £140 a month then you aren't going to have any problems full stop.

Perhaps in the future, now EV prices are rapidly falling thanks to cheaper batteries, you'll want to buy a car and own it until it dies in 20 years - but I am not sure we're quite there yet. We certainly will be soon, especially when the Dacia Spring and Citroen e-c3 go on sale and many others follow. It's a shame that Chinese EVs may end up getting more expensive due to politics.

 

[E27007]

I've run some very old cars over the years, and have had many a bad experience (in one case the engine seized on the M25 and was ultimately written off). I know there are some very reliable cars out there, and some of my choices weren't great, but these days I don't want any unnecessary surprises and would not entertain owning such an old vehicle - at least not ICE.

I have said many times that I hope that an EV of 5-10 years of age will likely still be very reliable, or at least very easy to check over. Indeed, it's probably a sensor for an advanced safety system that will fail - and they are the same whether ICE or electric. Fortunately there are cars with less tech that might be a safer bet.

However, if you're leasing a new car for £140 a month then you aren't going to have any problems full stop.

Perhaps in the future, now EV prices are rapidly falling thanks to cheaper batteries, you'll want to buy a car and own it until it dies in 20 years - but I am not sure we're quite there yet. We certainly will be soon, especially when the Dacia Spring and Citroen e-c3 go on sale and many others follow. It's a shame that Chinese EVs may end up getting more expensive due to politics.

The Act of Parliament of 2024 mandates a ZEV must have an 8 year warranty on the battery, the warranty is not a perk by the carmaker, it is a requirement of an Act of Parliament to conform with the defintion of an ZEV . The Act has parameters for the warranty, degradation of battery capacity is permitted , the degradation is not more than 30 % of capacity. With the political lobbying power of the carmakers, I wonder how long before that 8-year warranty is revised downwards

 

[jon0844]

The Act of Parliament of 2024 mandates a ZEV must have an 8 year warranty on the battery, the warranty is not a perk by the carmaker, it is a requirement of an Act of Parliament to conform with the defintion of an ZEV . The Act has parameters for the warranty, degradation of battery capacity is permitted , the degradation is not more than 30 % of capacity. With the political lobbying power of the carmakers, I wonder how long before that 8-year warranty is revised downwards

Downwards? MG has recently announced a lifetime warranty, claiming the battery will outlast the car. It isn't for cars sold in Europe yet, but they're the same batteries so clearly MG has faith in them. It includes models such as the MG4.

I can see warranties going up to reassure people that it really isn't an issue, and as batteries have fallen in cost by around 50%, the risk to the manufacturer should a few batteries fail (most likely due to battery management issues, or maybe just a fault in production) will be minimal - bar a huge design flaw that prompts a mass recall, and would be specific only to that individual battery.

In any case, 8 years is very good.

 

[E27007]

Downwards? MG has recently announced a lifetime warranty, claiming the battery will outlast the car. It isn't for cars sold in Europe yet, but they're the same batteries so clearly MG has faith in them. It includes models such as the MG4.

I can see warranties going up to reassure people that it really isn't an issue, and as batteries have fallen in cost by around 50%, the risk to the manufacturer should a few batteries fail (most likely due to battery management issues, or maybe just a fault in production) will be minimal - bar a huge design flaw that prompts a mass recall, and would be specific only to that individual battery.

In any case, 8 years is very good.

The carmakers were consulted in the drafting of the Act of Parliament, the car makers were looking for a softer warranty with a greater allowance for degradation in capacity for the warranty claim, but were overuled, the warranty is not necessarily a new full-capacity battery for old, a repair is permitted, and the requirement of the warranty is not to restore to 100% of new capacity, but to restore to above 70% of the original battery capacity when new

 

[jon0844]

Big shock that the industry would want to limit their liability. The point remains, the batteries are going to last way longer than 8 years unless there's a defect (which would likely become apparent long before this time) and the health often remains between 80-90% and in some cases even over 90% after a crazy amount of mileage that most people simply won't do.

I'd be far more concerned about other things going wrong, like expensive systems in the car, or even the suspension.

Like you say, batteries can be repaired/serviced and this is going to be a big market in the future. Car dealers worried about the loss of income from servicing ICE vehicles would be wise to look at the new opportunities instead of trying to put people off buying an EV. In time, they're going to get an EV. It will become ever harder to convince people they're bad when so many people are driving them and pointing out the fact they aren't having problems like the battery lasting a fortnight, nowhere to charge, or the car blows up every 15 miles.

 

[paul1609]

Big shock that the industry would want to limit their liability. The point remains, the batteries are going to last way longer than 8 years unless there's a defect (which would likely become apparent long before this time) and the health often remains between 80-90% and in some cases even over 90% after a crazy amount of mileage that most people simply won't do.

I'd be far more concerned about other things going wrong, like expensive systems in the car, or even the suspension.

Like you say, batteries can be repaired/serviced and this is going to be a big market in the future. Car dealers worried about the loss of income from servicing ICE vehicles would be wise to look at the new opportunities instead of trying to put people off buying an EV. In time, they're going to get an EV. It will become ever harder to convince people they're bad when so many people are driving them and pointing out the fact they aren't having problems like the battery lasting a fortnight, nowhere to charge, or the car blows up every 15 miles.

I think the problem with battery repair is that the infrastructure isn't currently there. There's undoubtedly a cottage industry of specialist repairers out there but they don't by and large have access to new components from the battery manufacturers so they have a very limited capacity achieved by component recovery from wrecks, even then they are competing with people looking at getting the battery packs for home batteries. It's not really in the battery or car manufacturers interests to increase the supply of components either when they have a new vehicle market that is being driven by government grants and legislation.

 

[jon0844]

What grants are there for EVs in the UK? I didn't think they existed anymore.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Personally I find ICEs far more enjoyable to drive, so I'll keep doing so as long as diesel and petrol remain available!

 

[GLC]

What grants are there for EVs in the UK? I didn't think they existed anymore.

There are still interest free loans to purchase used EVs available for people in Scotland https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/used-electric-vehicle-loan/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Personally I find ICEs far more enjoyable to drive, so I'll keep doing so as long as diesel and petrol remain available!

I've only owned one diesel (BMW's straight six N57 in a 640d GC), but there is no planet in which I would prefer a car with that engine over an EV. Even in six pot format it still sounded like tractor.

 

[paul1609]

What grants are there for EVs in the UK? I didn't think they existed anymore.

Perhaps I should have just said incentives, the tax concessions are driving EV sales.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I've only owned one diesel (BMW's straight six N57 in a 640d GC), but there is no planet in which I would prefer a car with that engine over an EV. Even in six pot format it still sounded like tractor.

For some that's part of the appeal! You can't beat a VW inline 5.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Back in the day I had a 30kw leaf "company" car on the basis that I drove in central London to and from home and to Heathrow airport. In theory it had a range of 167 miles, in practice no matter how hard I tried 90 ish miles range on a mix of country lanes, a21 and M25 was about the best I could achieve.
After about 2 years battery performance had dropped to 70% in the gauge and that meant about 70 miles. I understand that's the norm and that they will typically go like that to about 50k miles when the battery will suddenly fail usually on low insulation.
Apparently the 24 kw battery fitted to earlier models goes on for ever with about 60 miles range but the 30kwh doesn't so I guess that it's a matter of knowing what your buying just like ICE bangers.

That is very interesting. It reminds me of the fact that a bigger more juicy engine was often a better bet second hand as it had not been hammered so hard to get the acceleration and/or top speed. Furthermore said big engine might actually use less fuel because it is not being hammered. So a less ambitious EV battery might be less strained (same cooling for less power - heat).

Actually if he's spending £3k a year on fuel he could lease a brand new or nearly new EV for no net increase in spend, assuming he can charge at home.

Basically h anything other than a Leaf has a liquid cooled battery.

No no no. Early i3s have a tiny battery. The i3 was/is very expensive for what it is. It's the first EV I drove (hire car) and it blew me away but I got in one again recently and it's a horrible car. Horrible interior, rough ride, noisy.
Why did your car have to be 15 years old?

Exactly this. You can even lease used cars from Arval and others.
Stop focusing on age of the vehicle and focus on overall cost of driving your 18,000 miles a year.

My bold - Only my finger in the air guess at the point at which depreciation might be getting bearable for that model.

I am very below average mileage. But the lease costs are beginning to make me think. That £140/month is £1,680 per year - compare that to depreciation on a similarly new car. OK so my mileage is so low that I am probably seeing fuel/energy costs as an insignificant part of the equation. But it is something to think about for many. I don't like owning things on the never never (lease) but instead of steep depreciation that is a thought.

Downwards? MG has recently announced a lifetime warranty, claiming the battery will outlast the car. It isn't for cars sold in Europe yet, but they're the same batteries so clearly MG has faith in them. It includes models such as the MG4.

I can see warranties going up to reassure people that it really isn't an issue, and as batteries have fallen in cost by around 50%, the risk to the manufacturer should a few batteries fail (most likely due to battery management issues, or maybe just a fault in production) will be minimal - bar a huge design flaw that prompts a mass recall, and would be specific only to that individual battery.

In any case, 8 years is very good.

With warranties like that floating around then by the time my ten year window opens up the batteries are going to be an irrelevant factor unless there is software to tell the owner the battery is past it. Like there are service reminders on newer ICE cars.

The carmakers were consulted in the drafting of the Act of Parliament, the car makers were looking for a softer warranty with a greater allowance for degradation in capacity for the warranty claim, but were overuled, the warranty is not necessarily a new full-capacity battery for old, a repair is permitted, and the requirement of the warranty is not to restore to 100% of new capacity, but to restore to above 70% of the original battery capacity when new

That is fair really. After say 7 years I would be happy with a 70% battery unless I thought it was going to fall off a cliff soon after 8 years.

As a parallel I decided that the existence of extended warranties for white goods meant reliability must be good enough to not need said extended warranty !.

Big shock that the industry would want to limit their liability. The point remains, the batteries are going to last way longer than 8 years unless there's a defect (which would likely become apparent long before this time) and the health often remains between 80-90% and in some cases even over 90% after a crazy amount of mileage that most people simply won't do.

I'd be far more concerned about other things going wrong, like expensive systems in the car, or even the suspension.

Like you say, batteries can be repaired/serviced and this is going to be a big market in the future. Car dealers worried about the loss of income from servicing ICE vehicles would be wise to look at the new opportunities instead of trying to put people off buying an EV. In time, they're going to get an EV. It will become ever harder to convince people they're bad when so many people are driving them and pointing out the fact they aren't having problems like the battery lasting a fortnight, nowhere to charge, or the car blows up every 15 miles.

I would be interested to see how easy it is for Joe Public to repair the EV battery themselves. I imagine they are made up of a lot of low voltage cells so just testing individual cells and swapping out dudd ones. I can see A&E filling up with people who overlook the fact that 100 x 12Volts is a BIG shock !.

If EV batteries really hold up over tens of years i can see the other parts of the car determining the life of the car. Given the batteries are heavy (aren't they ?) I suppose the suspension is going to take more of a strain. As will my car ramps (que A&E again) !.

Corrosion is going to become a big factor again if cars last longer - they should last longer as that is less carbon footprint making new cars and scrapping old cars.

Corrosion - I am old enough to remember ten year old cars had rusty wings etc. All praise Galvanising.

 

[SWT_USER]

I'm just over a year in to EV ownership (Volkswagen ID:3).

It's been a pleasure to drive, especially around town. We do the odd long journey (2/3 times a year) which requires charing en-route and have so far not had any issues with charger unavailability. Being able to charge at home is great and the shopping centre car park near me also offers free charging and £2 to park all day on Sunday.

It's been great... until it wasn't. Drove approximately 120 miles on one Sunday in July, parked on the drive and went in to the house. A couple of hours later came out to use the car again to be greeted with this message. The car wouldn't move at all and had to be lifted on to a tow truck and has now been at the dealership since 22nd July with no estimate for getting it back

[Image shows error message on dashboard saying 'HV battery: risk of fire! Pull over safely ASAP and leave the vehicle. Call emergency services!']

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm just over a year in to EV ownership (Volkswagen ID:3).

It's been a pleasure to drive, especially around town. We do the odd long journey (2/3 times a year) which requires charing en-route and have so far not had any issues with charger unavailability. Being able to charge at home is great and the shopping centre car park near me also offers free charging and £2 to park all day on Sunday.

It's been great... until it wasn't. Drove approximately 120 miles on one Sunday in July, parked on the drive and went in to the house. A couple of hours later came out to use the car again to be greeted with this message. The car wouldn't move at all and had to be lifted on to a tow truck and has now been at the dealership since 22nd July with no estimate for getting it back

[Image shows error message on dashboard saying 'HV battery: risk of fire! Pull over safely ASAP and leave the vehicle. Call emergency services!']

View attachment 164518

Probably turn out to be a faulty sensor !.

 

[jon0844]

That is very interesting. It reminds me of the fact that a bigger more juicy engine was often a better bet second hand as it had not been hammered so hard to get the acceleration and/or top speed. Furthermore said big engine might actually use less fuel because it is not being hammered. So a less ambitious EV battery might be less strained (same cooling for less power - heat).

My bold - Only my finger in the air guess at the point at which depreciation might be getting bearable for that model.

I am very below average mileage. But the lease costs are beginning to make me think. That £140/month is £1,680 per year - compare that to depreciation on a similarly new car. OK so my mileage is so low that I am probably seeing fuel/energy costs as an insignificant part of the equation. But it is something to think about for many. I don't like owning things on the never never (lease) but instead of steep depreciation that is a thought.

With warranties like that floating around then by the time my ten year window opens up the batteries are going to be an irrelevant factor unless there is software to tell the owner the battery is past it. Like there are service reminders on newer ICE cars.

That is fair really. After say 7 years I would be happy with a 70% battery unless I thought it was going to fall off a cliff soon after 8 years.

As a parallel I decided that the existence of extended warranties for white goods meant reliability must be good enough to not need said extended warranty !.

I would be interested to see how easy it is for Joe Public to repair the EV battery themselves. I imagine they are made up of a lot of low voltage cells so just testing individual cells and swapping out dudd ones. I can see A&E filling up with people who overlook the fact that 100 x 12Volts is a BIG shock !.

If EV batteries really hold up over tens of years i can see the other parts of the car determining the life of the car. Given the batteries are heavy (aren't they ?) I suppose the suspension is going to take more of a strain. As will my car ramps (que A&E again) !.

Corrosion is going to become a big factor again if cars last longer - they should last longer as that is less carbon footprint making new cars and scrapping old cars.

Corrosion - I am old enough to remember ten year old cars had rusty wings etc. All praise Galvanising.

It will almost certainly be other things that go wrong, and if not sensors or screens breaking, just as likely systems becoming end of life and not updated anymore. Perhaps no new navigation maps, or maybe you won't be able to hook up to Android Auto or CarPlay because your software won't work with Android 20 or iOS 25 or whatever.

This might be when a super simple Dacia Spring EV will be a far better choice than a 10 year old BMW where you can't use all the features. Given BMW and others are dabbling with subscriptions and require cloud access to authorise access/payments, it's perfectly possible that some features will stop working entirely because the server has been cut off.

You are after all driving a computer on wheels these days. ICE cars aren't immune to this either of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This might be when a super simple Dacia Spring EV will be a far better choice than a 10 year old BMW where you can't use all the features. Given BMW and others are dabbling with subscriptions and require cloud access to authorise access/payments, it's perfectly possible that some features will stop working entirely because the server has been cut off.

It does appear Dacia are successfully positioning themselves as the car for the tech refusenik!

You are after all driving a computer on wheels these days. ICE cars aren't immune to this either of course.

ICE and EV are the same in this regard.

 

[InkyScrolls]

ICE and EV are the same in this regard.

That depends how old your car is of course. Mine predates the prevalence of electronics and I can fix almost everything myself, which is never going to be possible with an EV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends how old your car is of course. Mine predates the prevalence of electronics and I can fix almost everything myself, which is never going to be possible with an EV.

Don't forget the old adage - you can strip down a Land Rover in the field with a box of spanners, but with a Toyota Land Cruiser you don't need to.

EVs have far, far less to go wrong.

But that's a slightly false comparison anyway. ULEZ for example could force you to update your ICE - it's modern vs. old cars, not EV vs ICE.

 

[AM9]

I think the problem with battery repair is that the infrastructure isn't currently there. There's undoubtedly a cottage industry of specialist repairers out there but they don't by and large have access to new components from the battery manufacturers so they have a very limited capacity achieved by component recovery from wrecks, even then they are competing with people looking at getting the battery packs for home batteries. It's not really in the battery or car manufacturers interests to increase the supply of components either when they have a new vehicle market that is being driven by government grants and legislation.

I don't think that the current position that battery support is in will last long, The 'cottage' industry is in a learning and development stage, - techniques for recycling, refurbishing and replacing with new components are improving fast. Any battery or car manufacturer that thinks they can hold their customers captive with OEM parts/service only will rapidly find their reputation for it spreading and their following diminishing.
As far as batteries for home use are concerned, it is a different market, the batteries are different technology, lower power density and as a consequence, far more acceptable to homeowners and importantly, insurers. I have just had over 10kWh of batteries installed, - they are very smart, powder coated steel cases, - indeed acceptable inside a house. They are made by (surprise surprise) BYD, and use Lithum Iron Phosphate (LFP), can cope with 10% to 100% charging over many cycles more than Lithium Ion, and do not need temperature management.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Don't forget the old adage - you can strip down a Land Rover in the field with a box of spanners, but with a Toyota Land Cruiser you don't need to.

EVs have far, far less to go wrong.

But that's a slightly false comparison anyway. ULEZ for example could force you to update your ICE - it's modern vs. old cars, not EV vs ICE.

Oh indeed - but I drive an ICE because I enjoy it! I live nowhere near a ULEZ either so it's very unlikely to affect me.

 

[AM9]

Don't forget the old adage - you can strip down a Land Rover in the field with a box of spanners, but with a Toyota Land Cruiser you don't need to.

EVs have far, far less to go wrong.

But that's a slightly false comparison anyway. ULEZ for example could force you to update your ICE - it's modern vs. old cars, not EV vs ICE.

So long as ULEZ is the level to reach, - at some point, ZEZs will be introduced more generally.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It will almost certainly be other things that go wrong, and if not sensors or screens breaking, just as likely systems becoming end of life and not updated anymore. Perhaps no new navigation maps, or maybe you won't be able to hook up to Android Auto or CarPlay because your software won't work with Android 20 or iOS 25 or whatever.

This might be when a super simple Dacia Spring EV will be a far better choice than a 10 year old BMW where you can't use all the features. Given BMW and others are dabbling with subscriptions and require cloud access to authorise access/payments, it's perfectly possible that some features will stop working entirely because the server has been cut off.

You are after all driving a computer on wheels these days. ICE cars aren't immune to this either of course.

Each opening window of my Carltons had a computer - granted just basic mosfets or whatever (I can only recall playing with NAND and NOR chips in the early 80s). I used to marvel at their ability to still work after 30 years. Think back to Windows 95.... More modern cars have got a lot more tech dependant though.

Don't forget the old adage - you can strip down a Land Rover in the field with a box of spanners, but with a Toyota Land Cruiser you don't need to.

EVs have far, far less to go wrong.

But that's a slightly false comparison anyway. ULEZ for example could force you to update your ICE - it's modern vs. old cars, not EV vs ICE.

Yes I like to hope that my tools hardly get used.

Yes need to compare modern ICE with modern EV.
Or in my case 10-15 year old ICE with 10-15 year old EV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So long as ULEZ is the level to reach, - at some point, ZEZs will be introduced more generally.

Yes, I'd expect to see urban ZEZs becoming very common in the coming 20 years or so. But there will still be places to drive ICEs. I suspect they'll never be totally banned from everywhere - they'll just go away on their own.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Or in my case 10-15 year old ICE with 10-15 year old EV.

While the Leaf isn't a particularly good EV due to the lack of battery cooling, there's still less to go wrong on one than a 10 year old ICE.

 

[trebor79]

Personally I find ICEs far more enjoyable to drive, so I'll keep doing so as long as diesel and petrol remain available!

Have you driven any EVs? There absolutely nothing at all that would of make me go back to ICE. And I was a petrol head.

For some that's part of the appeal! You can't beat a VW inline 5.

Ah, the noise. Yeah you get over it quickly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So long as ULEZ is the level to reach, - at some point, ZEZs will be introduced more generally.

I am considering a switch to 2litre Diesel from circa 2015. But I just know the goalposts will be moved.

Mind you I wonder how many EV owners will be shocked when they start to pay Road Fund Licence properly. Road pricing is inevitable (there was a thread around that on here somewhere). But I suspect ICE cars will be subject to the same road pricing and without fuel tax being reduced.
So I doubt the road pricing aspect will affect the ICE vs EV equation. The sledgehammer road tax will upset that balance though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Yes, I'd expect to see urban ZEZs becoming very common in the coming 20 years or so. But there will still be places to drive ICEs. I suspect they'll never be totally banned from everywhere - they'll just go away on their own.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

yes I have pondered that. I recall Parrafin being available at most petrol stations back in he 1960s. I have no idea where I would get it now. So i can see that one day petrol will be hard to acquire- long way off though.

While the Leaf isn't a particularly good EV due to the lack of battery cooling, there's still less to go wrong on one than a 10 year old ICE.

This will be the big factor I suspect - if a battery generally becomes a boring component unlike an ECE or suspension then its one less problem to worry about. Availability of chargers is bound to increase over time.