Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[RailWonderer]

I'm not sure if anybody heard about VW

Volkswagen Future Plan: Passenger Cars brand gives first glimpse of entry-level electric model at works meeting

At today’s works meeting in Wolfsburg, Thomas Schäfer, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand, presented plans for the future of the core brand. Employees also had a first glimpse of the design of the Volkswagen brand’s future entry-level electric model at a price of about €20,000. “With the...

www.volkswagen-newsroom.com

With a base price of about €20,000, the new entry-level electric model will be attractive for a wide variety of user groups

One model releasing 2026 under €25,000, the other in 2027. With a lack of cheap EVs around, this is good to see, as well as the mid range/premium manufacturers that hopefully EVs for their base models. I'm not an EV driver yet but I'm seeing more plug sockets around and more EVs on the road already, even if car sales are down in general.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure if anybody heard about VW

Volkswagen Future Plan: Passenger Cars brand gives first glimpse of entry-level electric model at works meeting

At today’s works meeting in Wolfsburg, Thomas Schäfer, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand, presented plans for the future of the core brand. Employees also had a first glimpse of the design of the Volkswagen brand’s future entry-level electric model at a price of about €20,000. “With the...

www.volkswagen-newsroom.com

One model releasing 2026 under €25,000, the other in 2027. With a lack of cheap EVs around, this is good to see, as well as the mid range/premium manufacturers that hopefully EVs for their base models. I'm not an EV driver yet but I'm seeing more plug sockets around and more EVs on the road already, even if car sales are down in general.

I suspect the ID2 is going to do brisk business. I gather VW have learned a lot from the ID3 and it will be much nicer (less duller).

 

[jon0844]

It's certainly going to help the company and market alike, but one wonders how they managed to get this so wrong. Especially as, like BMW, they made a good small EV before and then ditched it before replacing it.

Just as batteries were getting way cheaper and other new technology was emerging, as well as high fuel prices creating further demand.

So many legacy car makers seem to have totally misjudged just about everything. Meanwhile Renault recently told me that they've got loads of orders for the Renault 5 EV from people who haven't even seen the car.

The demand for a nice small EV is there and growing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The demand for a nice small EV is there and growing.

Cards on the table - if VW had launched the ID2 a couple of years back, there would be one on my drive now.

 

[jon0844]

Cards on the table - if VW had launched the ID2 a couple of years back, there would be one on my drive now.

VW could have been ahead of others, and had already produced a small car that is now extremely popular on the second hand market (VW e-Up and its other group clones). When production was ended, they should have had something ready to replace it - using cheaper LFP batteries and whatever else it had gained through economy of scale.

Instead if shocked the world a couple of years ago by saying it would show off its new small car in 2025. Even now, there's always a long time from unveiling a new car to it being available (the Citroen e-c3 was over a year ago, the Renault 5 concept even longer).

Even Stellantis has managed to get a cheap car out quickly to take on the Dacia Spring with its partnership with Leapmotor.

What the heck is VW, BMW, Mercedes and Ford playing at?! Ford can't even say it wants to protect the sales of the Fiesta or Focus as they've axed the former and are about to axe the latter.

 

[MotCO]

What the heck is VW, BMW, Mercedes and Ford playing at?! Ford can't even say it wants to protect the sales of the Fiesta or Focus as they've axed the former and are about to axe the latter.

They saw more profits in larger cars - maybe the costs of developing EV technology were too great to be absorbed by small EV car sales, so had to lead with large EVs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They saw more profits in larger cars - maybe the costs of developing EV technology were too great to be absorbed by small EV car sales, so had to lead with large EVs.

Yes. I recall many years ago being told the money was in the larger cars. Small cars are so competitively priced that there is hardly any profit in it. So a firm is always going to put their R&D resources into getting the large cars designed and into production first so that they can recoup those costs. Then one would hope features and technology filters down to the mass market small cars.

I suppose it suggests that a large car does not cost much more to produce but can command a significantly higher price. It seems that many who buy a small car do so because that is all they can afford or justify. It follows that those out for a bigger car will be prepared to pay whatever it takes and/or can afford to pay over the odds as it is well within their financial reach.

It happens with every new and exciting innovation. My first memory of CD players was they cost £400. Out of my range. They were quite basic and over a few years those came down to £100 with £300 buying you a very much more feature enriched example that was really still over the top for what it offered. Those prices are roughly what I recall.

Electric Vehicles have started by selling to those with plenty of money to pay up front and do seem to be getting cheaper to buy as volumes increase. Depreciation allways hurts less if the initial price was lower - provided the quality is still there. I think the quality (battery life) is getting proven nowadays after a very shaky start.

Of course cars are unlike other consumer goods. Cars are really one of the only things we replace parts on, service and watch it depreciate (because we sell/buy them secondhand). Most other things are bought and used until knackered or superseded with little thought given to residual value. Perhaps a home is nearer to an ongoing product like a car - except that lasts forever and does not depreciate.

 

[jon0844]

They saw more profits in larger cars - maybe the costs of developing EV technology were too great to be absorbed by small EV car sales, so had to lead with large EVs.

Yeah, I am sure that's the case.. but they're not small companies. They know the market. They knew the top selling cars. Plus they'd already made a smaller car, as had BMW with the i3 (a car that's become a classic and well sought after on the second hand market, meaning it's held its value well).

Maybe in 5 or 10 years time they'll be back in the game, but I think they lost a lot of ground and need to play catch up.

They must have been in a position to see how much battery prices were falling year-on-year too. In a way they were ahead of the game and got out at the worst possible moment.

 

[Sun Chariot]

C and D segment cars are also the fleet market and I wonder how that shift - from ICE to EV - has played out so far in each nation.

VWs 2025 update of the Passat estate, ICE, surprised me in light of the ID7 EV option.

 

[bspahh]

C and D segment cars are also the fleet market and I wonder how that shift - from ICE to EV - has played out so far in each nation.

VWs 2025 update of the Passat estate, ICE, surprised me in light of the ID7 EV option.

In Germany, there is a vocal subsection of the motoring community that expects to be able to cruise at 200kph. An ID7 has a restricted top speed of 180kph.

I had a look for reports of the range of an ID7 at high speed. https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/vw-id-7-pro-82-kwh-range-test.15271/ quotes a range in winter of 262 miles at 90km/h and 191 miles at 120km/h. The WLTP range is 386 miles, but that is tested at a much lower speed.

A fast roll out of cheap EVs might have been a bad thing in the UK. Cheap EVs from a couple of years ago would have had a relatively low range, and relatively slow charging. That would have meant that they would needed to use public chargers a fair amount. It would have lead to a spree of articles from newspaper columnists complaining that had to queue to charge their fancy fast charging EV.

 

[Bald Rick]

It happens with every new and exciting innovation. My first memory of CD players was they cost £400. Out of my range. They were quite basic and over a few years those came down to £100 with £300 buying you a very much more feature enriched example that was really still over the top for what it offered. Those prices are roughly what I recall.

My father in law dropped £4,500 on a Sony 32” plasma screen TV in about 2001. You can get a much better soec on now for £350. (Jeez, I bought a Sony 14” portable for £300 in 1991!). But…

Of course cars are unlike other consumer goods.

Indeed so. In the same way that the tech in a new ICE car is very different to the same model 10 years ago, which itself was very different to the same model 20 years ago, the EV tech has deevloped quickly, but is not now the major cost element of the car.

 

[jon0844]

I test drove a Dacia Spring recently and was amazed how smooth and refined such a cheap car (it would be cheap even for a petrol car) and how good the tech was, all things considered.

Lethargic to 60 but absolutely fine to 30, almost pushing you back in your seat quick. Decent size boot for shopping too.

Sadly the car was too small for three occupants but absolutely I'd buy one as a second car or if I was only using the car myself. Indeed I can see myself buying one as a second car when they've been out a while and are cheap second hand cars. I expect the LFP battery will be good for loads more miles than any owners will ever actually get close to.

If Dacia did a slightly bigger B segment car for not much more, I'd probably snap one up.

I am still waiting out for the Renault 5 but I thought it was time for me to start looking around and getting some test drives. I'll be in the Citroen e-C3 next.

 

[Noddy]

I had a look for reports of the range of an ID7 at high speed. https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/vw-id-7-pro-82-kwh-range-test.15271/ quotes a range in winter of 262 miles at 90km/h and 191 miles at 120km/h. The WLTP range is 386 miles, but that is tested at a much lower speed.

If you watch the video that range test was performed in Norway in winter in snowy/icey conditions on winter tyres (Continental VC7s). In the UK in winter you’ll get better range because it’s rarely as cold (it was at least 5 degrees higher today in February where I am) and more importantly because it will almost certainly be on normal tyres.

 

[bspahh]

If you watch the video that range test was performed in Norway in winter in snowy/icey conditions on winter tyres (Continental VC7s). In the UK in winter you’ll get better range because it’s rarely as cold (it was at least 5 degrees higher today in February where I am) and more importantly because it will almost certainly be on normal tyres.

I was using the figures more for the effect of the cruising speed on the range than the absolute distance.

I worked in Germany for 6 months and spent the first 3 months cruising on Autobahns at 90-100mph, before I dropped to 70-80mph for 30% better fuel consumption.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought I had seen all types of public service / heavy vehicles in EV form (police car, ambulance, Fire engine, Skip Lorry, Bin Lorry, Bus, HGV, etc…), but I recompleted the set tonight. Hertfordshire has itself an EV Gritter!

And my goodness it can shift. I saw one this evening take a hot hatch off the lights, which surprised me and the driver of said hot hatch.

I was initially surprised at the concept of an EV Gritter though, given limited use through the year. However it turns out the gritting element is demountable and the ‘base unit’ is used for other purposes through the year.

The best thing is it has recently been given a name…

“Claudia SprinkleVan”

Genius.

 

[jon0844]

Speaking to a bus driver recently, I was told just how crazy fast a BYD bus is off the line too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Speaking to a bus driver recently, I was told just how crazy fast a BYD bus is off the line too.

Yeah, very nice. Unless like me you had the 119 bus that threw me backwards down the stairs resulting in me getting a torn calf muscle, deep vein thrombosis and lasting damage.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, very nice. Unless like me you had the 119 bus that threw me backwards down the stairs resulting in me getting a torn calf muscle, deep vein thrombosis and lasting damage.

I hope the huge acceleration wasn't/isn't tested in passenger service. That said, I've been on many regular diesel buses where I've felt there's only full power or full brake modes.

 

[paul1609]

I test drove a Dacia Spring recently and was amazed how smooth and refined such a cheap car (it would be cheap even for a petrol car) and how good the tech was, all things considered.

Lethargic to 60 but absolutely fine to 30, almost pushing you back in your seat quick. Decent size boot for shopping too.

Sadly the car was too small for three occupants but absolutely I'd buy one as a second car or if I was only using the car myself. Indeed I can see myself buying one as a second car when they've been out a while and are cheap second hand cars. I expect the LFP battery will be good for loads more miles than any owners will ever actually get close to.

If Dacia did a slightly bigger B segment car for not much more, I'd probably snap one up.

I am still waiting out for the Renault 5 but I thought it was time for me to start looking around and getting some test drives. I'll be in the Citroen e-C3 next.

I recently rescued one from Canterbury Hospital Car Park for a neighbour, agree about the smoothness and to be honest it was okay on the M20. However on a single carriageway country road where you wanted to overtake a tractor in greyhound mode you'd need clear visibility of at least a mile. Awful verging on the unsafe and this was the 65 hp version, Im sure there are other small cars that run out of puff at 45 mph just as you pull on the wrong side of the road but I dont think Ive driven one. Ok if your never going to leave a 20 mph zone I suppose.

 

[styles]

I thought I had seen all types of public service / heavy vehicles in EV form (police car, ambulance, Fire engine, Skip Lorry, Bus, HGV, etc…), but I recompleted the set tonight. Hertfordshire has itself an EV Gritter!

Our council was going to introduce leccy bin lorries.

It only got knocked back because they didn't have the charging infrastructure, which seemed a bit short-sighted to me.

On the plus side they do recycle pretty much all plastics, including composite plastics like crisp packets and choccy wrappers - if they can't split the composites they mould it into plastic decking and chipboard-replacement sheets. I genuinely think I could go 2 months at a time without having our general waste bin emptied.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I hope the huge acceleration wasn't/isn't tested in passenger service. That said, I've been on many regular diesel buses where I've felt there's only full power or full brake modes.

It is getting quite common to various degrees.
First problem is there is no clue the bus is about to move (no juddering into gear or change in engine note).
Second it is instant full on acceleration if the driver so wishes - lethal.
Really depends on whether the driver is the on-off type or if they try to be gentle on acceleration and braking.
I am sure it must be possible to limit the acceleration on an electric bus ?.

When the bus is actually moving braking can be tricky (diesel or electric) but at least you can wait until the bus stops before getting out of your seat.

 

[jon0844]

I recently rescued one from Canterbury Hospital Car Park for a neighbour, agree about the smoothness and to be honest it was okay on the M20. However on a single carriageway country road where you wanted to overtake a tractor in greyhound mode you'd need clear visibility of at least a mile. Awful verging on the unsafe and this was the 65 hp version, Im sure there are other small cars that run out of puff at 45 mph just as you pull on the wrong side of the road but I dont think Ive driven one. Ok if your never going to leave a 20 mph zone I suppose.

I think that's the thing. They will mostly be used for short trips in a town (or village). The lack of power for an overtake is an inconvenience (and I also like to build up good speed to join a motorway) but if it means having to stick behind a slow vehicle when I'd otherwise overtake with ease, so be it.

For me, the 0-30 is more important. You won't get anywhere in busy towns if you don't feel comfortable pulling out in a tight gap on a junction or roundabout, and it was fine for that. I can't speak for the lower powered model, but believe the 0-30 isn't far off the same. 0-60 is ridiculous, but as a second car to get to/from work I am sure it would be fine. Certainly a step up from a Citroen Ami (which I know isn't a true car but is also a suitable car for many people with moderate needs).

It is getting quite common to various degrees.
First problem is there is no clue the bus is about to move (no juddering into gear or change in engine note).
Second it is instant full on acceleration if the driver so wishes - lethal.
Really depends on whether the driver is the on-off type or if they try to be gentle on acceleration and braking.
I am sure it must be possible to limit the acceleration on an electric bus ?.

When the bus is actually moving braking can be tricky (diesel or electric) but at least you can wait until the bus stops before getting out of your seat.

Yes, being electric you can easily moderate the power and even control it in innovative ways to emulate a manual vehicle (as Hyundai has done on one of its performance models).

The only safe way to ensure a bus doesn't make you go flying is for the bus to have to play a sound (and display/flash a message) that it is about to move - and then prevent the bus moving until a fixed time has elapsed (4 or 5 seconds?). I can't see that flying (no pun intended) as it would introduce a delay, but it would give people some time/warning.

When on the move and stopping in traffic or lights etc, no need for any message as people should - in theory - be holding on or seated until arriving at the next stop.

 

[paul1609]

I think that's the thing. They will mostly be used for short trips in a town (or village). The lack of power for an overtake is an inconvenience (and I also like to build up good speed to join a motorway) but if it means having to stick behind a slow vehicle when I'd otherwise overtake with ease, so be it.

For me, the 0-30 is more important. You won't get anywhere in busy towns if you don't feel comfortable pulling out in a tight gap on a junction or roundabout, and it was fine for that. I can't speak for the lower powered model, but believe the 0-30 isn't far off the same. 0-60 is ridiculous, but as a second car to get to/from work I am sure it would be fine. Certainly a step up from a Citroen Ami (which I know isn't a true car but is also a suitable car for many people with moderate needs).

Have you driven one in the wet? (I Havent) I met the neighbour at a coffee morning the Spring is going back (it was on some sort of mobility scheme) for a Sandero, apparently he is not impressed with its braking performance in the wet. Ive never been in a car whilst he was driving but I imagine that the driving style is more Miss Daisy than the Stig.

 

[jon0844]

Have you driven one in the wet? (I Havent) I met the neighbour at a coffee morning the Spring is going back (it was on some sort of mobility scheme) for a Sandero, apparently he is not impressed with its braking performance in the wet. Ive never been in a car whilst he was driving but I imagine that the driving style is more Miss Daisy than the Stig.

The standard fit tyres are apparently awful in the wet, so I'd absolutely change them. I can't imagine that would be expensive for such small and narrow tyres.

For the expected mileages covered per year they'd then last for many years without needing to be changed again. Being so cheap I'd probably invest in winter tyres too, or even look at modern all season tyres.

Not that anyone is going to be racing around in one, but grip is important at any speed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think that's the thing. They will mostly be used for short trips in a town (or village). The lack of power for an overtake is an inconvenience (and I also like to build up good speed to join a motorway) but if it means having to stick behind a slow vehicle when I'd otherwise overtake with ease, so be it.

For me, the 0-30 is more important. You won't get anywhere in busy towns if you don't feel comfortable pulling out in a tight gap on a junction or roundabout, and it was fine for that. I can't speak for the lower powered model, but believe the 0-30 isn't far off the same. 0-60 is ridiculous, but as a second car to get to/from work I am sure it would be fine. Certainly a step up from a Citroen Ami (which I know isn't a true car but is also a suitable car for many people with moderate needs).



Yes, being electric you can easily moderate the power and even control it in innovative ways to emulate a manual vehicle (as Hyundai has done on one of its performance models).

The only safe way to ensure a bus doesn't make you go flying is for the bus to have to play a sound (and display/flash a message) that it is about to move - and then prevent the bus moving until a fixed time has elapsed (4 or 5 seconds?). I can't see that flying (no pun intended) as it would introduce a delay, but it would give people some time/warning.

When on the move and stopping in traffic or lights etc, no need for any message as people should - in theory - be holding on or seated until arriving at the next stop.

Being about 2/3rd of the way up the stairs I was in the worst possible position, I had just let go of the right handrail to get my hand past a bracket/branch in the hand rail. A warning would possibly have been insufficient for me to get to a seat BUT I would at least have been braced !.

I am fairly light footed - I now make an effort to stamp my feet as I walk so the driver might be aware someone is on the move.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The standard fit tyres are apparently awful in the wet, so I'd absolutely change them. I can't imagine that would be expensive for such small and narrow tyres.

For the expected mileages covered per year they'd then last for many years without needing to be changed again. Being so cheap I'd probably invest in winter tyres too, or even look at modern all season tyres.

Not that anyone is going to be racing around in one, but grip is important at any speed.

If I was buying a new car, I wouldn't expect to have to fork out for my own set of improved tyres in order to make it handle safely in the sorts of conditions which are commonplace in northern England. It should have decent tyres suitable for the conditions when it rolls off the dealership- if it doesn't, I'm not buying it!

 

[jon0844]

If I was buying a new car, I wouldn't expect to have to fork out for my own set of improved tyres in order to make it handle safely in the sorts of conditions which are commonplace in northern England. It should have decent tyres suitable for the conditions when it rolls off the dealership- if it doesn't, I'm not buying it!

The tyres aren't considered deadly and I'm sure most people will be fine with them. It's just that you can buy better, and for not much money given the tyre size.

I wouldn't not buy a car because of the tyres, especially second hand, as there are so many different tyres and characteristics. Some will favour performance, some noise, some grip in extreme conditions and so on.

The tyres on the Spring presumably comply with all regulations so I can't see why you'd refuse to buy a car because of the rubber. In any case I bet you could ask your Renault/Dacia dealer to swap them for something else.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The tyres aren't considered deadly and I'm sure most people will be fine with them. It's just that you can buy better, and for not much money given the tyre size.

I wouldn't not buy a car because of the tyres, especially second hand, as there are so many different tyres and characteristics. Some will favour performance, some noise, some grip in extreme conditions and so on.

The tyres on the Spring presumably comply with all regulations so I can't see why you'd refuse to buy a car because of the rubber. In any case I bet you could ask your Renault/Dacia dealer to swap them for something else.

I was responding to your comment that:

The standard fit tyres are apparently awful in the wet, so I'd absolutely change them.

Are the tyres fine or are they awful? If I was signing up to buy a new car and the tyres it came with felt unsafe, I'd be expecting the dealer to upgrade them at no cost to myself... or I'm walking away.

 

[jon0844]

I have no idea as I don't know the car and my test drive was in the dry.

If I was happy with the car, I wouldn't not buy it for the sake of four cheap tyres I could replace with something else.

Are the tyres on your car right now the absolute best or what it came with? I've switched tyres on many cars over the years.

 

[DelW]

If I was buying a new car, I wouldn't expect to have to fork out for my own set of improved tyres in order to make it handle safely in the sorts of conditions which are commonplace in northern England. It should have decent tyres suitable for the conditions when it rolls off the dealership- if it doesn't, I'm not buying it!

My current car was new in 2020 and came fitted with Bridgestone Potenzas. At four years old three were suffering from tread cuts and sidewall perishing and cracking, and since my car doesn't have a spare wheel, I opted to change them. To my surprise, when I looked up replacement tyre availability, the Potenzas were listed as "suitable for summer use only" in Britain - I hadn't been warned of that by the dealer supplying the car. They've now been changed for Goodyear all-season tyres, since I don't have space or facilities to keep separate summer and winter sets (in common with about 99% of UK car owners I suspect).