Does anyone have any interior footage of the three fully refurbished 1972Mk1 stock cars on the Northern Line?

[RacsoMoquette]

Hi all, I am aware that three six car units of 1972Mk1 Stock on the Northern Line received a full refurbishment by Tickford Rail at Rosyth Royal Dockyard. In the mid to late 1990s akin to the similar style refurbishment of the 1967TS and later the 1972Mk2 TS. However it was soon to be abolished in favour of new stock (1995TS). I have intensely searched forums and many Northern Line 1990s videos and even some DVDs related to said line, while I have seen the exterior of one of the three fully refurbished stock, I still have not managed to find any interior footage of the black décor, which I have seen on some interior fittings of the three now on the Bakerloo Line mainly the side panels and ventilation knobs have been left in previouse condition.

 

[Dstock7080]

7-car 1972 mkI refurbished by Rosyth:
3203+3501 (renumbered 3264+3564 of Bakerloo)
3218+3507
?+?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Thanks for the correction! Also would you know of anybody who may bear footage or photographs of the Northern Line black décor and moquette?

 

[tom1649]

I think one of John Glover's books contains a picture of the Northern Line interior. Even more interesting would be to see the guard's panel setup on these. Did they keep the same panels they had before refurbishment?

 

[Dstock7080]

"Underground Movement" P. Moss ©2000.
caption:

one of three trains that were converted into a Northern Line related interior with charcoal grey being used on the grabpoles and armrests.
Subsequently these would be changed into Bakerloo Line versions.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

How splendid! In that photograph the poles seem to look more grey than black, My word that British Furtex Fabrics designed moquette for the 1959 and 1972 seems much more vivid and modern than when looked on the latter trains, it was however closely related to the refurbished 1967 and 1972TS moquette also designed and created by the same. Nevertheless a great find, and It would have been rather interesting if the order for the 1995TS never occurred, and the whole fleet was given this refurbishment to carry them into the 21st Century, akin to the stocks brothers.

 

[Silent]

"Underground Movement" P. Moss ©2000.
caption:

Interesting, so it's like the Bakerloo line 72 stock refurb but slightly different. As a child I remember the 72 and 67 stock having the top of the seats lined with a leather like material a bit similar to the ntfl concept interior seats. This Northern line refurb doesn't have the leather lining at the tops of seats.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting, so it's like the Bakerloo line 72 stock refurb but slightly different. As a child I remember the 72 and 67 stock having the top of the seats lined with a leather like material a bit similar to the ntfl concept interior seats. This Northern line refurb doesn't have the leather lining at the tops of seats.

Vinyl

The Bakerloo trains, as refurbished, didn't have vinyl tops either, instead moquette in the line colour, but that was later changed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"Underground Movement" P. Moss ©2000.
caption:

Absolutely ghastly. Thank god for the 1995 stock. I dread to think how overwhelmed the Northern line would be today if it was still run with slow, low density 72 stock. It already makes the Bakerloo line the embarrassment of the tube.

 

[Towers]

Absolutely ghastly. Thank god for the 1995 stock. I dread to think how overwhelmed the Northern line would be today if it was still run with slow, low density 72 stock. It already makes the Bakerloo line the embarrassment of the tube.

The Bakerloo is a gem; its 72 stock and lower traffic levels delivers a far more pleasant travelling experience than some of its much busier cousins.

 

[A60stock]

Absolutely no way the 72 stock would have been able to cope on the Northern line with its much higher demand in comparison to the Bakerloo. Come to think about it, the Bakerloo is pretty much the only line you could just about get away with having 50 year old 72 stock.

On saying that, the 73 stock is still in service on the Piccadilly and seems to serve the line just about ok. But the 73s seem miles ahead in their capability to serve a busy line!

 

[Mikey C]

Absolutely no way the 72 stock would have been able to cope on the Northern line with its much higher demand in comparison to the Bakerloo. Come to think about it, the Bakerloo is pretty much the only line you could just about get away with having 50 year old 72 stock.

Plus the 72s were only a relatively small part of the Northern Line fleet. It would have been weird to have replaced the 59s and run the new trains alongside the 72s.

And displacing the 72s did allow a small number to be converted to run on the Bakerloo and Victoria lines, and presumably became a source of spare parts.

 

[tom1649]

72 stock low density? It has the same interior that the 67 stock had on the Victoria Line and nothing about that line is low density.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely no way the 72 stock would have been able to cope on the Northern line with its much higher demand in comparison to the Bakerloo. Come to think about it, the Bakerloo is pretty much the only line you could just about get away with having 50 year old 72 stock.

Yet the 72 stock *did* cope quite happily for 25 years or so.

Don't forget that the trailer cars had all-longitudinal seating, and the slight extra length from having 7 cars instead of 6 would have helped a bit as well. Likewise operation with a guard probably led to slightly slicker dwell times.

The bigger issue with the 72 stock was their rather unpredictable behaviour in terms of driving. Those drivers who still remember them will tell just how dodgy they were to drive.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I think I read somewhere that the C Stock (Pre Referb) also was problematic to drive. Can you give me some insight to what factors caused the driving related problems? As the C and 72 Stocks had extremely similar looking cab controls and I would presume similar operating systems.

 

[Dstock7080]

This is off-topic for this thread but C Stock had ’72 Stock has a very fierce transition from electro-pneumatic to rheostatic braking and back again.
With electro-pneumatic initially applying on all cars, above 15mph and below 40mph, then dropping off on motor cars when the rheostatic brake proving circuit was made.
This caused a significant lurch in braking which was out of the drivers control.
When speed was reduced to below 6mph the rheostatic brake now dropped off, there being insufficient energy to produce the brake force, the electro-pneumatic would now apply on the motor cars, causing yet another uncomfortable lurch.

Upon refurbishment some of issues were addressed, C Stock motors were tweaked slightly to improve the transition

 

[fgwrich]

"Underground Movement" P. Moss ©2000.
caption:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can tell which were the ex Northern Line vehicles by the black and white spot / triangles on the wall panels at the facing seats too. The native Bakerloo one's are brown and white.

 

[A60stock]

Yet the 72 stock *did* cope quite happily for 25 years or so.

Don't forget that the trailer cars had all-longitudinal seating, and the slight extra length from having 7 cars instead of 6 would have helped a bit as well. Likewise operation with a guard probably led to slightly slicker dwell times.

The bigger issue with the 72 stock was their rather unpredictable behaviour in terms of driving. Those drivers who still remember them will tell just how dodgy they were to drive.

Yes, when the 72 stock were far younger. But as I said, only the bakerloo can get away with clapped out 50 year old stock with no replacement in sight

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Absolutely ghastly. Thank god for the 1995 stock. I dread to think how overwhelmed the Northern line would be today if it was still run with slow, low density 72 stock. It already makes the Bakerloo line the embarrassment of the tube.

The Bakerloo Line is really quite nice - easy going atmosphere compared to the sensory bombarding S Stock trains. MetCam built LUL stock will always be the best. Apart from the 92 stock of course.

 

[bramling]

This is off-topic for this thread but C Stock had ’72 Stock has a very fierce transition from electro-pneumatic to rheostatic braking and back again.
With electro-pneumatic initially applying on all cars, above 15mph and below 40mph, then dropping off on motor cars when the rheostatic brake proving circuit was made.
This caused a significant lurch in braking which was out of the drivers control.
When speed was reduced to below 6mph the rheostatic brake now dropped off, there being insufficient energy to produce the brake force, the electro-pneumatic would now apply on the motor cars, causing yet another uncomfortable lurch.

Upon refurbishment some of issues were addressed, C Stock motors were tweaked slightly to improve the transition

I’ve also heard it suggested that the Northern Line 72 stock was somewhat left to rot during the 1990s, which further exacerbated these issues.

Certainly there’s plenty of stories of trains which would behave perfectly well for most of the journey, then the driver would suddenly find themselves shooting past a stopping mark.

The same seems to have applied to the 59 stock in terms of being in a poor state, however the general view was that a 59 stock might be a good or bad train, but would be consistently one or the other. Whereas a 72 stock could be very variable from one minute to the next.

The current Bakerloo fleet doesn’t seem to be berated in quite the same way, so evidently things have been done to them over the years that have improved their handling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can tell which were the ex Northern Line vehicles by the black and white spot / triangles on the wall panels at the facing seats too. The native Bakerloo one's are brown and white.

To some extent yes, however the first of the four trains was moved to the Bakerloo before being refurbished, therefore doesn’t have these features. Also one of the units contains two 72mk2 cars.

There are some other giveaways. All the doors were replaced some years ago, so look completely different to the native fleet. At least some of the M doors retained the plated-over aperture for the train set number, which the MK2 fleet never had - I presume this is still the case.

These four trains really are quite lucky to have outlived the rest of the fleet by just 25 years and counting!

 

[Silent]

The Bakerloo Line is really quite nice - easy going atmosphere compared to the sensory bombarding S Stock trains. MetCam built LUL stock will always be the best. Apart from the 92 stock of course.

What do you dislike about the S Stock, is it the sometimes overly loud speakers or more?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Bakerloo Line is really quite nice - easy going atmosphere compared to the sensory bombarding S Stock trains. MetCam built LUL stock will always be the best. Apart from the 92 stock of course.

Sure, but then heritage railways are “quite nice” too … that doesn’t make them in any way efficient, capacious, fast, plentiful or suitable for the extremely busy capital city of the UK.

 

[bramling]

Sure, but then heritage railways are “quite nice” too … that doesn’t make them in any way efficient, capacious, fast, plentiful or suitable for the extremely busy capital city of the UK.

The Bakerloo is a backwater, such that the current trains serve it reasonably well. That said, 50+ years is pushing it, especially for trains which were always a little “interesting” in the first place. Worth noting that they do not score the lowest on LU in terms of passenger satisfaction, the Central Line takes that spot.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What do you dislike about the S Stock, is it the sometimes overly loud speakers or more?

You're right about the speakers and the booming voice, there's just too many different things going on all the time; the speakers, the traction motor noise, the door opening chimes, the bright lights... I don't avoid the line per se, but would rather take an alternative line, like C2C or the Piccadilly, if I could.

 

[sh24]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can tell which were the ex Northern Line vehicles by the black and white spot / triangles on the wall panels at the facing seats too. The native Bakerloo one's are brown and white.

At least one of these has been replaced by an ex-67 stock Victoria line panel. Quite the hybrid!

 

[thomalex]

"Underground Movement" P. Moss ©2000.
caption:

Fascinating that these had visually distinct flooring around the doors when the brand new at the time 92 stock didn't, and is only is only now being put in with the refurb.