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Does anyone know why the Caledonian sleeper trains are pulled by a 66 now and not a 73?

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Mike Redding

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This might be (is) a horrendously stupid question, but is it not possible to modify the Class 67 bogies? Either re-bogie to make them CoCo or more lightweight? Granted making the bogies themselves more lightweight probably wouldn't do much in the grand scheme of things.

Or is it just the weight of the entire loco as a whole that causes so many issues?
 
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Spaceship323

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This might be (is) a horrendously stupid question, but is it not possible to modify the Class 67 bogies? Either re-bogie to make them CoCo or more lightweight? Granted making the bogies themselves more lightweight probably wouldn't do much in the grand scheme of things.

Or is it just the weight of the entire loco as a whole that causes so many issues?
The thing is if they use the 67's only on the Inverness part there won't be a problem with route availability, leaving the 73\9's to do the other 2 portions
 

Wyrleybart

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This might be (is) a horrendously stupid question, but is it not possible to modify the Class 67 bogies? Either re-bogie to make them CoCo or more lightweight? Granted making the bogies themselves more lightweight probably wouldn't do much in the grand scheme of things.

Or is it just the weight of the entire loco as a whole that causes so many issues?
Quick history lesson
When Ed Burkhardt headed the brand new EWS company and wanted to import US locomotion to the UK the origlnal plan was for 280 class 66s of which 30 were to be ETS fitted. EWS aspired to high speed mails traffic and charter work but EMD could not provide EWS with high speed three axle bogies, There was talk of Brush offering EWS the class 89 bogie to go under the "passenger" 66s but EWS allegedly baulked at the price, so EWS got 250 x 66 and 30 x 67 The thirty "passenger" 66s morphed into 125mph BoBo class 67s using identical power unit, traction alternator and traction motors.

What was built was a very heavy Bo Bo, so much so that the fuel tanks were allegedly baffled to prevent filling right up. Very heavy RA but DB nee EWS used a handful on Scotland on sleeper services, subject to serious speed restrictions over a number of bridges, and composite brake blocks for the extended periods of braking on the long downhill runs. This handful of sleeper locos rarely left Scotland - 67030 being one of them.

.
 

GS250

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This answers my question from another generic Caledonian sleeper thread.

Seems then that the actual answer would be a modern, fuel efficient, lightweight type 4 loco rated at around 2500-2700hp. Sadly....such a thing doesn't exist!
 

ac6000cw

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What was built was a very heavy Bo Bo,
But it isn't a 'very heavy' Bo-Bo, it's around the typical weight for a modern mainline Bo-Bo. The cl. 68 and 88 are only a bit lighter (about 21.5t axle load versus about 22-22.5t for the 67), and a cl. 90 is about 21t axle load. Also all of those (67, 68, 88, 90) have frame-mounted traction motors, reducing the unsprung mass and track forces at speed.

Seems then that the actual answer would be a modern, fuel efficient, lightweight type 4 loco rated at around 2500-2700hp. Sadly....such a thing doesn't exist!
If you were willing to hand over enough money, I suspect Stadler would build you one e.g. a lighter, lower-powered cl. 68, but the cost per loco for just a handful would probably be quite high - and this would be to haul trains that only run at all because of large subsidies per passenger...
 

D365

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If you were willing to hand over enough money, I suspect Stadler would build you one e.g. a lighter, lower-powered cl. 68, but the cost per loco for just a handful would probably be quite high - and this would be to haul trains that only run at all because of large subsidies per passenger...
Indeed - the only way in which I can see new Highlands locos appearing (at least in the immediate future) would be as an add-on to a 37 replacement.
 

ZL exile

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Why would you need a class 37 replacement? They work so few core trains, the way forward is Class 66 et al with RT3973 or whatever it is called today restrictions, test trains can be multiple units repurposed, no need for a few cranked trainspotter type locos that the taxpayer doesn’t nned to pay fo. 37’s may loo and sound good but they damage the environment in a most unsatisfactorily way.
 

D365

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Why would you need a class 37 replacement? They work so few core trains, the way forward is Class 66 et al with RT3973 or whatever it is called today restrictions, test trains can be multiple units repurposed, no need for a few cranked trainspotter type locos that the taxpayer doesn’t nned to pay fo. 37’s may loo and sound good but they damage the environment in a most unsatisfactorily way.
That’s my point - any replacement for a Class 37 would need to be some sort of lightweight hybrid. There’s enough edge cases to demonstrate why the EMD classes never saw them off entirely.
 

Mollman

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Why would you need a class 37 replacement? They work so few core trains, the way forward is Class 66 et al with RT3973 or whatever it is called today restrictions, test trains can be multiple units repurposed, no need for a few cranked trainspotter type locos that the taxpayer doesn’t nned to pay fo. 37’s may loo and sound good but they damage the environment in a most unsatisfactorily way.

That’s my point - any replacement for a Class 37 would need to be some sort of lightweight hybrid. There’s enough edge cases to demonstrate why the EMD classes never saw them off entirely.

Most likely you would do a Class 69 type job on a handful of 37s to create a 'modern' low emission loco with the route availability of a 37.
 

D365

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Most likely you would do a Class 69 type job on a handful of 37s to create a 'modern' low emission loco with the route availability of a 37.
It’s a topic for a different thread, but there is (somewhere) a proposal to do just that.
 

ac6000cw

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Wyrleybart

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That’s the one. Thanks for the link. It’s one for a speculative thread, but a hybridised DRS 37/4 could be useful on the Highland sleepers.
But DRS don't have the contract until at least 2030 when it's next for up for grabs, and there isd no need for a class 37 replacement. What is needed is a "self powered" loco capable of coupling to and supplying power via dellners to the CS stock. Class 66 cannot do it directly but that is what GBRf own most of.

The logical process would be for GBRf to build or rebuild something considerably newer than the 37 to start with, with the oldest nearly sixty. It might have been easier to rebuild the class 58 with new power unit and ETS and Dellners as the frames and bogies are 20 years newer than 37s, maybe on a similar line to the 69, but with oodles more options for what goes between the cabs
 

XCTurbostar

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Hopefully this fits in here:- It’s been reported that a Mk3 ‘generator car’ with Eastern Rail Services on the side is at Inverness now.

Edit: It is Nightstar 96371

Image of 96371 is Caledonian Blue Livery
 

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Cheshire Scot

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Hopefully this fits in here:- It’s been reported that a Mk3 ‘generator car’ with Eastern Rail Services on the side is at Inverness now.

Edit: It is Nightstar 96371

Image of 96371 is Caledonian Blue Livery
It appears CS do not have access to shore supplies in Inverness - presumably all used by ScotRail plus the LNER set - and this is their means of avoiding the cost and inconvenience experienced last year when during the Christmas shutdown when internal water pipes in stock froze then burst when thawing out taking the full set out of service for repairs.
They could perhaps also use it for routine winter weekend (Saturday night) stabling.
 

Speed43125

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Hopefully this fits in here:- It’s been reported that a Mk3 ‘generator car’ with Eastern Rail Services on the side is at Inverness now.

Edit: It is Nightstar 96371

Image of 96371 is Caledonian Blue Livery
Very interesting, the ERS site gives no indication of what is intended. Do we know if GBRf or CS themselves have leased (?) this unit?
 

fgwrich

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It appears CS do not have access to shore supplies in Inverness - presumably all used by ScotRail plus the LNER set - and this is their means of avoiding the cost and inconvenience experienced last year when during the Christmas shutdown when internal water pipes in stock froze then burst when thawing out taking the full set out of service for repairs.
They could perhaps also use it for routine winter weekend (Saturday night) stabling.
Simply this. The problem is, the shore supplies are located within the station or depot confines. GBRf / Caley Sleeper can't leave the Sleeper stock in the station for the duration of the shutdown, while the depot will be busy with the ScotRail fleet. So this will be able to provide ETS to the stock while stabled elsewhere in the depot - it WONT be running to Edinburgh or replacing any of the 67/73s etc!

Very interesting, the ERS site gives no indication of what is intended. Do we know if GBRf or CS themselves have leased (?) this unit?
Hired. Still owned by ERS.
 

Speed43125

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Simply this. The problem is, the shore supplies are located within the station or depot confines. GBRf / Caley Sleeper can't leave the Sleeper stock in the station for the duration of the shutdown, while the depot will be busy with the ScotRail fleet. So this will be able to provide ETS to the stock while stabled elsewhere in the depot - it WONT be running to Edinburgh or replacing any of the 67/73s etc!


Hired. Still owned by ERS.
So to clarify this definitely isn't another GBRf contingency to keeping the service running, its CS themselves who have decided they need ETS supply while the train is sat idle without a loco. Is that right?
 

fgwrich

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So to clarify this definitely isn't another GBRf contingency to keeping the service running, its CS themselves who have decided they need ETS supply while the train is sat idle without a loco. Is that right?
Not a service related contingency at all, but yes it is GB / CS hiring it to keep the ETS supplied while a loco can be elsewhere. I'm not sure how long ERS are hiring it out for - thats a question for them.
 
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