Does Okehampton reopening set a precedent for any other reopenings... Or not?

[swt_passenger]

Dept of Transport press release

government-restores-the-dartmoor-line-as-services-resume-for-first-time-in-half-a-century-from-20-november-2021

Are they slightly exaggerating what’s been done here?

Didn‘t summer Sunday services already run - so although they’ve brought it up to a much better standard, it’s not really been a full “reopening” of a long abandoned line. Low hanging fruit that doesn’t create much of a precedent for the many other proposals.

 

[Irascible]

Are they slightly exaggerating what’s been done here?

Didn‘t summer Sunday services already run - so although they’ve brought it up to a much better standard, it’s not really been a full “reopening” of a long abandoned line. Low hanging fruit that doesn’t create much of a precedent for the many other proposals.

Sort-of - they were as much "services" as railtours are though & funded by DCC. I'm still not sure how something that's been a campaign for 3+ decades slipped into RYR, but it's open & I'll take it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Are they slightly exaggerating what’s been done here?

Didn‘t summer Sunday services already run - so although they’ve brought it up to a much better standard, it’s not really been a full “reopening” of a long abandoned line. Low hanging fruit that doesn’t create much of a precedent for the many other proposals.

Don't disagree but you've got to let this lot have their ego boost to ensure we get funds for other projects. All NR needs to do is keep over delivering and give them the opportunity to take credit for it.

 

[RPI]

Are they slightly exaggerating what’s been done here?

Didn‘t summer Sunday services already run - so although they’ve brought it up to a much better standard, it’s not really been a full “reopening” of a long abandoned line. Low hanging fruit that doesn’t create much of a precedent for the many other proposals.

Let's not forget that a huge amount of track relaying has taken place and the installation of GSMr masts

 

[swt_passenger]

Let's not forget that a huge amount of track relaying has taken place and the installation of GSMr masts

I’m not denying that. Just saying it wasn’t as much of a basket case as the many fantasy reopening proposals recently made popular in various DfT listings…

 

[RPI]

I’m not denying that. Just saying it wasn’t as much of a basket case as the many fantasy reopening proposals recently made popular in various DfT listings…

Its also not just a case of running trains every day on a line already there, the previous arrangement of the guard taking a mobile phone in place of there being no GSMR wouldn't have been allowed for an every day service, the track was in a horrendous state, with the amount of new sleepers, rails and ballast thats gone in its not far off being a whole new railway, not to mention new bridges

 

[fgwrich]

I’m not denying that. Just saying it wasn’t as much of a basket case as the many fantasy reopening proposals recently made popular in various DfT listings…

I rather agree with you on the overhyping of the press release. But, I can only but hope it puts similar schemes into a good light now - eg, routes like the Fawley / Hythe line or routes with existing track beds and are likely to connect places to places. Unlike some of the never to re-open again proposals put forward (Like Silloth etc!).

 

[Brissle Girl]

Are they slightly exaggerating what’s been done here?

Didn‘t summer Sunday services already run - so although they’ve brought it up to a much better standard, it’s not really been a full “reopening” of a long abandoned line. Low hanging fruit that doesn’t create much of a precedent for the many other proposals.

I don’t think a service that ran for, what, maybe 15 days a year could remotely be described as regular. So I think the wording used is entirely reasonable. And certainly much less inaccurate than many government claims (the 40 new hospitals one immediately comes to mind).

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t think a service that ran for, what, maybe 15 days a year could remotely be described as regular. So I think the wording used is entirely reasonable. And certainly much less inaccurate than many government claims (the 40 new hospitals one immediately comes to mind).

Oh it was regular, right enough. Just not very frequent!

 

[The Ham]

Oh it was regular, right enough. Just not very frequent!

Regular - arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances.

Whilst it had a definite pattern, certainly not with the same space between individual instances. As such it's reasonable to argue that whilst during the summer months there was a definite pattern over the year it wasn't regular.

Would anyone say Newquay gets a regular service, yes, would anyone say that Newquay has a regular service to anywhere other than Par, almost certainly not. As such if GWR announced that Newquay was, for the first time in ages going to have a regular service to London (say twice a day all year round) few would quibble.

Likewise if SWR had said there was going to be a regular (say twice daily) service to Corfe Castle in 2020 (after running the service on Saturday's during 2019), then again few would have quibbled.

Technically a weekly bus on market day, one service there and one back is regular, however again if that was made so that it was useable by commuters the bus company could justifiably call that the first time it was regulator.

Therefore it could be argued that the service to Okehampton was regular, however most would accept that an at least a few times a day most days of the year would be the minimum that they would expect if a public transport service was called regular.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Regular - arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances.

Whilst it had a definite pattern, certainly not with the same space between individual instances. As such it's reasonable to argue that whilst during the summer months there was a definite pattern over the year it wasn't regular.

...

Therefore it could be argued that the service to Okehampton was regular, however most would accept that an at least a few times a day most days of the year would be the minimum that they would expect if a public transport service was called regular.

The earth only revolves round the sun once a year - but it's "regular". Frequency isn't really relevant to the concept of regularity.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The earth only revolves round the sun once a year - but it's "regular". Frequency isn't really relevant to the concept of regularity.

But it happens every year like clockwork. The Sunday service happened for around 15 weeks then stopped for the next 37. So not like the earth revolving around the sun at all. Therefore not regular.

Anyway, it's splitting hairs. There was no year round weekday service for nearly 50 years, and now there will be. In my mind that justifies the press statement.

 

[AlbertBeale]

But it happens every year like clockwork. The Sunday service happened for around 15 weeks then stopped for the next 37. So not like the earth revolving around the sun at all. Therefore not regular.

Anyway, it's splitting hairs. There was no year round weekday service for nearly 50 years, and now there will be. In my mind that justifies the press statement.

Nothing I said was intended to disagree with these points!

 

[Chester1]

Okehampton does set a precedent but its that the track needs to be in place and just about usable. Portishead will be a more true reopening but has been much harder to fund. Okehampton is a good sign for Newcastle to Ashington and the Fawley branch. Not too sure it will help reopen closed lines.

 

[JKF]

It seems a fairly easy win, a quick scheme to get in place so it can be crowed about as ‘reversing Beeching’ by the gorernment. Not sure how big a success it will be given the size of the town, the position of the station and the fact it’s a fair trek to any of the pretty bits of Dartmoor from there, I guess you have to hope for a bit of ‘railheading’.

I‘m not sure any other schemes will be as simple, stuff like Portishead has been in the pipeline for an eternity and feels like they’ll never get a spade in the ground.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think a service that ran for, what, maybe 15 days a year could remotely be described as regular. So I think the wording used is entirely reasonable. And certainly much less inaccurate than many government claims (the 40 new hospitals one immediately comes to mind).

It was in a way similar to the Halton Curve - it wasn't closed per-se, but with a one day a week summer-only service there was work to do to get it to being used daily.

 

[Irascible]

It seems a fairly easy win, a quick scheme to get in place so it can be crowed about as ‘reversing Beeching’ by the gorernment. Not sure how big a success it will be given the size of the town, the position of the station and the fact it’s a fair trek to any of the pretty bits of Dartmoor from there, I guess you have to hope for a bit of ‘railheading’.

I‘m not sure any other schemes will be as simple, stuff like Portishead has been in the pipeline for an eternity and feels like they’ll never get a spade in the ground.

Also, it wasn't Beeching!

Portishead has Portbury traffic to work around which ofc wasn't there when it shut, so it's a bit more complicated & also needs a new station ( the third? ). It does seem to be taking a ridiculous amount of time for something Bristol had basically decided to do long ago though. Just imagine if they'd decided to keep going through TM & out to Mangotsfield or something...

 

[JKF]

Also, it wasn't Beeching!

Portishead has Portbury traffic to work around which ofc wasn't there when it shut, so it's a bit more complicated & also needs a new station ( the third? ). It does seem to be taking a ridiculous amount of time for something Bristol had basically decided to do long ago though. Just imagine if they'd decided to keep going through TM & out to Mangotsfield or something...

There’s been barely any Portbury traffic for a couple of years now, only occasional new train deliveries which I think stopped in late 2019, and the recent twice a week at best stone traffic for HS2, and that hasn’t run for the last three or four weeks. This ‘lull’ in freight traffic would have been a good opportunity to crack on with it, but we’re still somewhere in the decade-long approval process. The outlook for freight isn’t great, they’re planning to build a deep-sea container port on the Avonmouth side of the river mouth, so that’ll be the growth area, if they can’t make car or gypsum traffic work at Portbury at present with a lorry driver crisis then I’m not sure they ever will.

Think it might be the fourth Portishead station if you include the WC&P…

 

[WesternBiker]

The Portishead Railway Group site is actually a quite useful reference for how the reopening process can take so long & how much it actually costs, they do well to show these things simply.

The development of a rail-based suburban network in Bristol has been very frustrating (I can recall the “Bristol Metro” proposals in the 1970s) but the Portishead reopening has been simply painful.

I do hope that the other reopenings progress more straightforwardly, otherwise we may not see anything more than Okehampton and Ashington/Blyth.

 

[Irascible]

There’s been barely any Portbury traffic for a couple of years now, only occasional new train deliveries which I think stopped in late 2019, and the recent twice a week at best stone traffic for HS2, and that hasn’t run for the last three or four weeks. This ‘lull’ in freight traffic would have been a good opportunity to crack on with it, but we’re still somewhere in the decade-long approval process. The outlook for freight isn’t great, they’re planning to build a deep-sea container port on the Avonmouth side of the river mouth, so that’ll be the growth area, if they can’t make car or gypsum traffic work at Portbury at present with a lorry driver crisis then I’m not sure they ever will.

Think it might be the fourth Portishead station if you include the WC&P…

I had a feeling the traffic had died - which is a bit of a pity for a fairly modern installation, but I guess it helps the passenger side of things. According to the Portishead Railway Group website the line is fully funded & the Secretary of State is due to make a decision on this Tuesday ( 19th Oct ) - they're hardly going to say "no" right now with all that work done.

The WC&P! I knew I was forgetting something.

 

[PhilH]

Decision deadline for Portishead now extended to next April.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think if Okehampton is a failure or a success, it will be used as evidence for or against similar lines, such as the Brigg line.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think if Okehampton is a failure or a success, it will be used as evidence for or against similar lines, such as the Brigg line.

Success can be defined in many ways. What counts is what the organisation paying for it thinks.

 

[JKF]

Decision deadline for Portishead now extended to next April.

Ffs. What is the sticking point? Is it not red wall enough?

I‘d quite like to hop on the train to take the kids to see their grandparents in Pill, they‘ll have grown up and left home before this happens at the current rate.

 

[Irascible]

Ffs. What is the sticking point? Is it not red wall enough?

I‘d quite like to hop on the train to take the kids to see their grandparents in Pill, they‘ll have grown up and left home before this happens at the current rate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/portishead-branch-line-metrowest-phase-1-planning-update there's the official release.

I was thinking people who were born after the campaign started are probably going to be working on building it, at this rate.

 

[WesternBiker]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/portishead-branch-line-metrowest-phase-1-planning-update there's the official release.

I was thinking people who were born after the campaign started are probably going to be working on building it, at this rate.

"Further consideration of environmental matters". That's pretty cryptic. My immediate thought was that someone has omitted to prepare advice on a statutory environmental issue - i.e. a "buying time" reason. Or maybe they've found some rare species on along the trackbed...

 

[Bald Rick]

,

Ffs. What is the sticking point? Is it not red wall enough?

Hasn’t Portishead been blue for about 70 years? Not very red wall!

 

[JKF]

,


Hasn’t Portishead been blue for about 70 years? Not very red wall!

That was kind of my point, nothing to gain politically from throwing money here.

 

[Irascible]

"Further consideration of environmental matters". That's pretty cryptic. My immediate thought was that someone has omitted to prepare advice on a statutory environmental issue - i.e. a "buying time" reason. Or maybe they've found some rare species on along the trackbed...

Yeah, pretty sure that's Generic Excuse for Putting Things Off #3.