Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[mpthomson]

Cost on average £10.00 to the opco for every passenger that ever passed through the airport. I expect any new opco that is expected to invest anything themselves would want to know how much of the entire estate comes with the airport. Is Gateway East up for negotiation? Will desperately need non-aviation revenue sources. Like has been said, until we know what the organisational structure looks like it’s very difficult to know how it’ll go wrt the burden on the tax payer.

From the snippets that have been made public via cabinet meetings they’re definitely attacking it from a GVA pov, emphasising how much it contributes (or could) to the regional economy. This is problematic. Lots of reliance on the belief that Peel mismanaged the airport, also problematic particularly for anyone who has been privy to commercial information not yet in the public domain.

Indeed, I've seen loads of posts on Facebook claiming that it would have been a success if it wasn't for Peel, completely missing the point that other airports not run by Peel have similar problems.

 

[pug1]

Indeed, I've seen loads of posts on Facebook claiming that it would have been a success if it wasn't for Peel, completely missing the point that other airports not run by Peel have similar problems.

And also that Liverpool, Peels one successful venture into airport operations and ownership, is to see its busiest year ever this year with the arrival of Jet2. Granted, they are a partner in the opco now, but it just proves the point that they are not averse to the long term investment an airport required to be sustainable and growing aviation hub. Something they saw for Doncaster as a flagship of the Peel Airports portfolio but actually turned into a dud.

Quite what the future holds for a DSA 2.0 remains to be seen. Certainly there is some growth in the airline industry at the moment, but commercial aviation is cyclical. Whilst the ups are great, the downturns bring consolidation and great uncertainty for the marginals. Southend is a cautionary tale of what happens when you’re a secondary player. LBA are watching carefully, whilst completing their private investment in the facilities to future proof the site. Discussions with airlines continue apace and there may be first mover advantage on that front from what I’m hearing too.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure what that would be in truth. As this airport was never profitable previously any operator is going to be expecting the council to hold much of the commercial financial risk for it in any agreement. We'll all just have to wait and see what comes of any negotiations and hope that the council is very transparent about the financing of it in the event that an agreement is reached..

I was thinking more regional or national subsidy than private investment, to be honest.

 

[Nym]

But alas, why do we need this airport…?

 

[zwk500]

But alas, why do we need this airport…?

Who is 'we' in this context? The answer to this question might be quite different if 'we' is the UK public good or if it's the Doncaster business sector.

 

[mpthomson]

Who is 'we' in this context? The answer to this question might be quite different if 'we' is the UK public good or if it's the Doncaster business sector.

It's not clear that either 'we' need it in reality. Some of the local travelling public may want it but they don't need it, it's already in the catchment area of three much larger established airports. As for the business sector there could well be a valid argument that site redevelopment for industrial use would lead to far more employment generation and business opportunities rather than a small non-viable airport operating a few bucket and spade/ feeder flights a day, and at less cost to local council tax payers.

 

[Killingworth]

Who is 'we' in this context? The answer to this question might be quite different if 'we' is the UK public good or if it's the Doncaster business sector.

And maybe one or two in the Sheffield business sector who might occasionally use one of the very few flights going where they want to go on days they want to travel.

 

[Meerkat]

Would the number of locals wanting an airport remain significant if it was explained how much it will cost them, the risk, and that it will be so limited they probably won’t be able to get a flight to where they want to go anyway?

 

[Bantamzen]

Depends if he wants to do the right thing or wants to get elected. Saying to people 'look, we're too poor to afford an airport' is likely to attract criticisms of 'doing Doncaster down' or 'lacking ambition for the region'. And if you're standing for election it tends to indicate you want to be elected first and then do the right thing later (right thing by whom is a totally separate discussion).

Is the correct answer. Promise the airport, get elected, then blame someone else when it doesn't happen. Or am I being too cynical?

It's not clear that either 'we' need it in reality. Some of the local travelling public may want it but they don't need it, it's already in the catchment area of three much larger established airports. As for the business sector there could well be a valid argument that site redevelopment for industrial use would lead to far more employment generation and business opportunities rather than a small non-viable airport operating a few bucket and spade/ feeder flights a day, and at less cost to local council tax payers.

One of the reasons that the local population liked DSA was because it was quiet, and easy to get through security and to the gates to the handful of holiday flights per day. Exactly the sort of case that will be balked at across the aviation industry, few passengers not spending a great deal, and not driving airport operating profits in the right direction. And for a large part it is the desire to appease these travellers used to empty departure halls that is driving the local council towards trying to reopen. Sure some business may return in the form of the aviation supply chain, but with the forecasted numbers put forward (around 2M pa) by DCC a profit seems highly unlikely (some sources within the industry suggest a throughput of 3-3.5M pa is a more realistic profit making figure).

 

[pug1]

Is the correct answer. Promise the airport, get elected, then blame someone else when it doesn't happen. Or am I being too cynical?


One of the reasons that the local population liked DSA was because it was quiet, and easy to get through security and to the gates to the handful of holiday flights per day. Exactly the sort of case that will be balked at across the aviation industry, few passengers not spending a great deal, and not driving airport operating profits in the right direction. And for a large part it is the desire to appease these travellers used to empty departure halls that is driving the local council towards trying to reopen. Sure some business may return in the form of the aviation supply chain, but with the forecasted numbers put forward (around 2M pa) by DCC a profit seems highly unlikely (some sources within the industry suggest a throughput of 3-3.5M pa is a more realistic profit making figure).

I think they’re fully committed, although hopefully there is an element of political capital being gained here prior to the local elections. They’ve appointed people to write viability studies to justify their own beliefs, they’ll then push that to whoever is granting the funding and whoever that is (Oliver Coppard, Government) will approve it cos it’s the economy innit. Just like DSA 1.0, it was accepted there was no need for it, but it’s investment so crack on.

Any opinions to the contrary in Doncaster are seen as doing Doncaster down. Doncaster now being a city is apparently justification for an airport. Blind leading the blind and backed by consultants and legal firms on a nice little earner so long as they toe the line.

Viability test should be, will the banks lend any money to open it given its history of heavy losses. If they would then crack on, if they won’t then it’s a high risk use of public funds and should be rejected. Am I being too simplistic?

 

[jhy44]

I feel bad for Yorkshire when it comes to airports. The region has a population similar to Scotland but doesn't have a 'major' airport. Manchester isn't a million miles away but it isn't the easiest journey over the Pennines.
It seems like a case of splitting eggs across too many baskets with Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster/Sheffield, and Teesside (being just a few yards outside the county), but none of them being centrally located for the entire region and all poor for public transport. I wonder if airports were publicly-owned and centrally-planned as they often are in other countries, we'd see those three closed and something new and purpose-built in a location central to Leeds/Hull/Sheffield a bit like East Midlands is (something around Pontefract perhaps), but unlike MEA actually integrated into the rail network. It perhaps would combine existing demand and generate additional demand enough to make it a commercial success.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I feel bad for Yorkshire when it comes to airports. The region has a population similar to Scotland but doesn't have a 'major' airport. Manchester isn't a million miles away but it isn't the easiest journey over the Pennines.
It seems like a case of splitting eggs across too many baskets with Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster/Sheffield, and Teesside (being just a few yards outside the county), but none of them being centrally located for the entire region and all poor for public transport. I wonder if airports were publicly-owned and centrally-planned as they often are in other countries, we'd see those three closed and something new and purpose-built in a location central to Leeds/Hull/Sheffield a bit like East Midlands is (something around Pontefract perhaps), but unlike MEA actually integrated into the rail network. It perhaps would combine existing demand and generate additional demand enough to make it a commercial success.

I agree, I think that a proper Yorkshire international airport would have been any of the former RAF Elvington/Church Fenton/Linton on Ouse (all 3 are pretty close to the ECML, relatively centrally located for Yorkshire, and available with little cost. Teesside would probably still survive in this scenario, as an airport for Cleveland and southern County Durham, but the others would close or never open in the case of DSA.

 

[Nym]

Shouldn’t the airport for Yorkshire be at Leeds International Airstrip?
Where the flight will touch down 20 minutes later…?

 

[BrianW]

Shouldn’t the airport for Yorkshire be at Leeds International Airstrip?
Where the flight will touch down 20 minutes later…?

Why should this airport in Yorkshire be for (only?) Yorkshire? That strikes me as a rather 'Yorkshire's best' argument and perspective. Is Heathrow an airport for London- maybe- but also for a wide swathe, if not the whole of the UK (and beyond). What and who is an airport in Yorkshire to serve? I dare say Yorkshire folk may still feel ok, however reluctantly, about using an airport at Manchester, or Heathrow, or ... wherever.

One of the reasons that the local population liked DSA was because it was quiet, and easy to get through security and to the gates to the handful of holiday flights per day. Exactly the sort of case that will be balked at across the aviation industry, few passengers not spending a great deal, and not driving airport operating profits in the right direction. And for a large part it is the desire to appease these travellers used to empty departure halls that is driving the local council towards trying to reopen. Sure some business may return in the form of the aviation supply chain, but with the forecasted numbers put forward (around 2M pa) by DCC a profit seems highly unlikely (some sources within the industry suggest a throughput of 3-3.5M pa is a more realistic profit making figure).

Any airport to be commercially viable needs to be busy- if anyone wants a 'quiet life' it's not easily found this side of the grave. Perhaps Papa Westray beckons.

Doncaster London Airport- now that may be a possiblity- 6tph to KX- the beating heart of London.

 

[HullRailMan]

I feel bad for Yorkshire when it comes to airports. The region has a population similar to Scotland but doesn't have a 'major' airport. Manchester isn't a million miles away but it isn't the easiest journey over the Pennines.
It seems like a case of splitting eggs across too many baskets with Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster/Sheffield, and Teesside (being just a few yards outside the county), but none of them being centrally located for the entire region and all poor for public transport. I wonder if airports were publicly-owned and centrally-planned as they often are in other countries, we'd see those three closed and something new and purpose-built in a location central to Leeds/Hull/Sheffield a bit like East Midlands is (something around Pontefract perhaps), but unlike MEA actually integrated into the rail network. It perhaps would combine existing demand and generate additional demand enough to make it a commercial success.

To be fair, the bulk of Yorkshire’s population live in West/South Yorks, and they have Manchester, Leeds/Bradford, East Midlands, Humberside and (at a push) Liverpool within a 90 minute drive. Plus, there is Teeside and Newcastle for our North Riding friends. If anything, that’s too much competing capacity, and there certainly isn’t any need for more.

 

[pug1]

I feel bad for Yorkshire when it comes to airports. The region has a population similar to Scotland but doesn't have a 'major' airport. Manchester isn't a million miles away but it isn't the easiest journey over the Pennines.
It seems like a case of splitting eggs across too many baskets with Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster/Sheffield, and Teesside (being just a few yards outside the county), but none of them being centrally located for the entire region and all poor for public transport. I wonder if airports were publicly-owned and centrally-planned as they often are in other countries, we'd see those three closed and something new and purpose-built in a location central to Leeds/Hull/Sheffield a bit like East Midlands is (something around Pontefract perhaps), but unlike MEA actually integrated into the rail network. It perhaps would combine existing demand and generate additional demand enough to make it a commercial success.

Campaign groups in the 60’s wanted to see an airport at Ferrybridge when the M62 was in the planning phase (another one was proposed at Burtonwood for the North West), but airport planning (outside of a strategic few) was left to the local corporations. Hence every City building and running their own and very little inter-regional strategic planning on the matter. An airport for Thorne was later proposed and rubbished by the Leeds Corporation who quite rightly stated that it was in the middle of nowhere and actually Yorkshires demographics cannot support a major airport. It’s why the situation is as it is. Yorkshire and the Humber generates around 11 million air passengers per year, that’s less than the number using Edinburgh Airport every year not to mention Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness etc… Manchester might be a pain to get to but the airlines don’t care if you reached it by horse and cart so long as you continue to use it there is no impetus to serve more airports with all the extra costs and inevitable dilution of load and yield that would entail.

 

[Zamracene749]

Shouldn’t the airport for Yorkshire be at Leeds International Airstrip?
Where the flight will touch down 20 minutes later…?

Flown by Captain Botham, with outdoor plane toilets and mushy peas on all flights?

 

[Killingworth]

Flown by Captain Botham, with outdoor plane toilets and mushy peas on all flights?

I'd Boycott that!

 

[Bantamzen]

I feel bad for Yorkshire when it comes to airports. The region has a population similar to Scotland but doesn't have a 'major' airport. Manchester isn't a million miles away but it isn't the easiest journey over the Pennines.
It seems like a case of splitting eggs across too many baskets with Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster/Sheffield, and Teesside (being just a few yards outside the county), but none of them being centrally located for the entire region and all poor for public transport. I wonder if airports were publicly-owned and centrally-planned as they often are in other countries, we'd see those three closed and something new and purpose-built in a location central to Leeds/Hull/Sheffield a bit like East Midlands is (something around Pontefract perhaps), but unlike MEA actually integrated into the rail network. It perhaps would combine existing demand and generate additional demand enough to make it a commercial success.

Why feel bad for us, we have LBA within the borders which is pretty good for holiday flights plus some connections to hubs like Amsterdam, and rumours are circulating that a trans-Atlantic carrier is eyeing options for a route using A321neos. LBA is also expanding it's terminal & adding extra stands and improving taxiways. All in all, LBA isn't doing too badly despite its location. And for flights further afield, well Manchester really isn't that far away and there is reasonable access to it via the motorway network & (when they run) TPE.

Some people have long dreamed of a brand new international airport to the east of Leeds, Church Fenton or Leeds East as its now known as being cited as the "ideal" location. Ideal in that its fairly close to the M62, and fairly close to the Leeds-York line. But not close enough to not involve a vast amount of expensive work just to connect the current site to them, and that's before the mind-numbing amounts needed to bring the current site up to commercial standards. Basically there isn't going to be a new airport.

Why should this airport in Yorkshire be for (only?) Yorkshire? That strikes me as a rather 'Yorkshire's best' argument and perspective. Is Heathrow an airport for London- maybe- but also for a wide swathe, if not the whole of the UK (and beyond). What and who is an airport in Yorkshire to serve? I dare say Yorkshire folk may still feel ok, however reluctantly, about using an airport at Manchester, or Heathrow, or ... wherever.

As above, we really don't need it. Improve connections to the expanding LBA with a link road & parkway station, and maybe in the distant future a tram connection if the WY tram network ever gets off the ground, and we've got an uncle called Robert.

Any airport to be commercially viable needs to be busy- if anyone wants a 'quiet life' it's not easily found this side of the grave. Perhaps Papa Westray beckons.

Indeed, whilst quite airports are nice, they don't make profits and often need heavy subsidies / higher fares. Some of the good people of South Yorkshire don't quite get that.

Doncaster London Airport- now that may be a possiblity- 6tph to KX- the beating heart of London.

That would really, really be stretching it given that there's little to no possibility of a loop off the ECML.

 

[mpthomson]

Is the correct answer. Promise the airport, get elected, then blame someone else when it doesn't happen. Or am I being too cynical?


One of the reasons that the local population liked DSA was because it was quiet, and easy to get through security and to the gates to the handful of holiday flights per day. Exactly the sort of case that will be balked at across the aviation industry, few passengers not spending a great deal, and not driving airport operating profits in the right direction. And for a large part it is the desire to appease these travellers used to empty departure halls that is driving the local council towards trying to reopen. Sure some business may return in the form of the aviation supply chain, but with the forecasted numbers put forward (around 2M pa) by DCC a profit seems highly unlikely (some sources within the industry suggest a throughput of 3-3.5M pa is a more realistic profit making figure).

Indeed and without understanding that the number of passengers/ flights it requires to operate profitably would mean that the quiet/ easy to park/ short security queues would vanish and it would feel much more like LBA does at the moment.

I agree, I think that a proper Yorkshire international airport would have been any of the former RAF Elvington/Church Fenton/Linton on Ouse (all 3 are pretty close to the ECML, relatively centrally located for Yorkshire, and available with little cost. Teesside would probably still survive in this scenario, as an airport for Cleveland and southern County Durham, but the others would close or never open in the case of DSA.

Other than Elvington (which is nowhere near any rail infrastructure), the other two sites are terribly placed in terms of infrastructure/ road access. They're both miles from motorways down narrow country roads and Church Fenton is at the opposite side of the village from the railway, whilst Linton is a good 5 miles from the ECML with a massive National Trust owned park in between. We've been through all of this this before... Noone is going to be building rail spurs to potential airports and the costs for getting any to commercial standards would dwarf the costs being proposed for DSA.

 

[Nym]

Flown by Captain Botham, with outdoor plane toilets and mushy peas on all flights?

Thank you!

I thought everyone was taking it too seriously

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why should this airport in Yorkshire be for (only?) Yorkshire? That strikes me as a rather 'Yorkshire's best' argument and perspective. Is Heathrow an airport for London- maybe- but also for a wide swathe, if not the whole of the UK (and beyond). What and who is an airport in Yorkshire to serve? I dare say Yorkshire folk may still feel ok, however reluctantly, about using an airport at Manchester, or Heathrow, or ... wherever.

Take it you've never seen the Yorkshire Airlines sketch based on your reply?

Have a watch of this to see context to Nym's comment.

 

[Zamracene749]

I'd Boycott that!

Haha, typical of me to get the wrong cricketer! I hold my hands up to not being a sports fan

 

[mpthomson]

Thank you!

I thought everyone was taking it too seriously

Forum needs some like/dislike/laughing reaction emojis! I got it...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Forum needs some like/dislike/laughing reaction emojis! I got it...

There is at least a laughing one .

...and nothing to stop any of us copying and pasting in a thumbs up or down is there?

 

[BrianW]

Take it you've never seen the Yorkshire Airlines sketch based on your reply?

Have a watch of this to see context to Nym's comment.

Excellent, lad.
Thanks awfully

 

[westv]

TUI is "keen to return" it seems

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/doncaster-sheffield-airport-budget-airline-tui-keen-to-return-to-re-opened-airport-and-could-be-main

Airline TUI has told Doncaster Council that the carrier is ‘keen’ to return to a re-opened Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

 

[mpthomson]

TUI is "keen to return" it seems

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/doncaster-sheffield-airport-budget-airline-tui-keen-to-return-to-re-opened-airport-and-could-be-main

That's been known ever since the re-opening was first proposed. There's TUI and 2Excel have also said they'd move the 727s back up if it reopened because it's closer to where their work area is most likely to be (North Sea). But that's it currently. The problem is TUI couldn't operate enough flights to enable DSA to run profitably and a highly niche outfit like 2Excel, great though it is, doesn't offer that much financially.

 

[pug1]

TUI is "keen to return" it seems

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/doncaster-sheffield-airport-budget-airline-tui-keen-to-return-to-re-opened-airport-and-could-be-main

What you need to understand is that being keen to return and actually agreeing a mutually beneficial arrangement with whoever may operate the airport are two entirely different things. I think it was always pretty clear TUI didn’t want to leave, they had the run of the place because no other airlines could justify competing or complimenting them to any sustainable scale.

Will cost a lot to have a H24 airport with only the levels of traffic it has previously. Would suggest to me that if an operator is appointed, things might not be as cheap as they were previously.

 

[Killingworth]

The electorate in South Yorkshire should have received a leaflet including an election address from each of the 5 candidates. I'd only ever heard of 2, one being the current Mayor, collectively an uninspiring group - not a patch on Andy Burnham and one or two other mayors, but I digress.

Lots were drawn to determine each candidate's position in the leaflet.

1. The Green party, leader of the 14 Greens on Sheffield City Council, cabinet member for Transport & Climate Change and chair for Housing. Features as the first of his 6 priorities BETTER BUSES AND TRAMS - extending the bus and tram network. No mention of aviation or railways.

2.Lib/Dems - seemingly a Barnsley councillor (not stated in the address), 5 photographs with one in front of a railway viaduct, a bus in Barnsley, a police car and the Robin Hood terminal. Wants better public transport, nothing specific written about anything with no trace of railways, trams or the airport

3. Labour, the incumbent Mayor from Sheffield. 10 bullet points, 4 featuring transport. 1 to bring buses under public control, 3 make South Yorkshire Airport City a world leader in sustainable aviation, 6 renew our tram network, 7 pilot free travel on public transport for young people. No mention of railways.

4. Conservative a Doncaster councillor. In his own words the only candidate with a credible plan to support reopening Doncaster Sheffield Airport. Of his 4 priorities No 1 is the airport. Buses and trains get no specific mention beyond making transport accessible - but "not wasting vast amounts of tax-payers cash on the Supertrams". All the way DSA for him.

5. The Social Democratic Party, the country manager of a group of 5 companies employing 350 from 6 different countries, from Mexborough, within the Doncaster area. 8 bullet points No 4 concluding "and plan to RE-OPEN Doncaster Airport ASAP!" No other mention of public transport, bus, tram or train.

2 candidates are from Sheffield, 2 from Doncaster and one from Barnsley, Rotherham not getting a runner in this race.

4 from 5 had to get DSA in somehow. Both from Doncaster clearly see this as the burning issue, particularly so the Tory - a fight against the dominance of Sheffield (where Supertram certainly is eating vast sums of money to benefit relatively few in Sheffield and even fewer in Rotherham). Barnsley acknowledges it exists. The Sheffield incumbent is somewhat evasive. Reading between his other lines the Green from Sheffield must be opposed but daren't say so!

An interesting challenge for local democracy?