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Doncaster to Leeds/York

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johnnychips

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A few friends and I are going to visit Leeds today (Sat) afternoon from Doncaster and will probably buy a day return. But if we don't like Leeds and want to go on to York and buy a Leeds-York day return, I expect we will not be able to take a direct train back to Donny using both return portions.

If we bought a day return from Donny to York, is a journey via Leeds (breaking the journey) permissible at all, or would it be possible if we bought an ordinary return?

Thanking the experts on this site in anticipation.

John
 
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yorkie

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Historically York <> Doncaster has always been valid via Leeds, but someone really needs to put a Freedom of Information (FOI) Act request to the Department for Transport (DfT) asking them why they allowed ATOC to change the Routeing Guide, to remove this as a permitted route.

Of course, it's perfectly reasonable and I'd be shocked if a guard did not accept it!

There are two types of Day return on the York <> Doncaster flow. The Off Peak Day (CDR) will suffice, this is £13.50 (10 years ago this was priced at £5.00!)

I believe the term "Ordinary Return" meant a ticket valid for return within 3 months or something and was abolished some time in the 1980s? They no longer exist. The non-Day products are now simply denoted by the lack of "Day" suffix. But unless you are staying for more than one day, a Day ticket will suffice!

Update: York to Doncaster validity via Leeds was restored a few years later
 
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34D

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A few friends and I are going to visit Leeds today (Sat) afternoon from Doncaster and will probably buy a day return. But if we don't like Leeds and want to go on to York and buy a Leeds-York day return, I expect we will not be able to take a direct train back to Donny using both return portions.

If we bought a day return from Donny to York, is a journey via Leeds (breaking the journey) permissible at all, or would it be possible if we bought an ordinary return?

Thanking the experts on this site in anticipation.

John

NXEC changed policy (but not the routeing guide) to allow Leeds-Donny to be valid via York and York-Donny to be valid via Leeds - donny and points south.

Buy donny to micklefield and you should be fine.

 

yorkie

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I witnessed today passengers using a York > Doncaster ticket on the CrossCountry 1044 from York, wanting to change at Wakefield. The guard told them it was "not valid" and that if they remained on the train beyond Leeds they would be charged for a new ticket from Leeds.

Clearly we need to take this matter up with the DfT/ATOC as I do not think that permission should have been granted to remove this as a permitted route!

If anyone is charged, some strongly worded letters would need to be written!
 

johnnychips

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This question arose because our department have had their Xmas day out in York for the past few years. This year some young whippersnapper suggested a day out in Leeds instead. More conservative (with a small 'c') members had heard that Leeds was 'a bit rough' (quite ironic, I thought, as we all live in Donny) and wanted the option to travel on to York if this proved to be so.

In fact, when we arrived at Donny station today, the whippersnapper produced a long list from the Internet of non-rough activities attainable in Leeds: we trusted him and bought a £12-50 day return. He was proved correct as we had a great time in a beer keller, and then went on to the German market.

The younger members of the department are still out there, while we older ones have prudently returned before we fall over. We were impressed by the 322 to Leeds and can't remember much about the 321 back, but it must have been quiet as we slept all the way. For some reason it didn't make its scheduled stop at Bentley.

Cheersh

John
 

yorkie

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£12.50 is a bit much for LDS <> DON, I wouldn't pay that unless I was in a massive rush or if Valentas were still in operation on East Coast ;)

Next time, split at South Elmsall (SES) if getting the Northern stopper.

DON - SES £2.60
SES - LDS £4.90
Total = £7.50

Discount of 40% :)

For some reason it didn't make its scheduled stop at Bentley.
I suspect that may be where the fatality occurred earlier in the evening.
 

johnnychips

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I suspect that may be where the fatality occurred earlier in the evening.

Really sorry about that.

It was pure accident we ended upon stopping trains, and to be honest as it's the equivalent of our Xmas party, you don't worry about cost too much. But I'll remember it next time. Thanks.

On a strange note, something you might not notice on a HST or 225: I thought for a whlie I was in Sweden (this was before the beer keller). Then I realised every stop before Wakefield had had their pit closed down, and Silver Birch is evidently the tree of choice to stabilise and recolonise slagheaps.
 
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clagmonster

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£12.50 is a bit much for LDS <> DON, I wouldn't pay that unless I was in a massive rush or if Valentas were still in operation on East Coast ;)

Next time, split at South Elmsall (SES) if getting the Northern stopper.

DON - SES £2.60
SES - LDS £4.90
Total = £7.50

Discount of 40% :)
Alternatively, to be valid on the fasts:
Donny-Wakey SDR £8.20
Wakey-Leeds CDR £3.60
Total £11.80
 

yorkie

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I see an FOI request has gone to the DfT:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/routeing_guide_change_york_donca

Glynn Magheramorne

10 December 2011


Dear Department for Transport,

I understand that all changes to the National Routeing Guide must,
by law, be approved by the DfT. Can you please explain why York <>
Doncaster, which has always traditionally been valid via Leeds, is
no longer valid via Leeds?

There can be no justification for this change, as there is no fares
anomaly or advantage to a passenger going to Leeds to use this
ticket, and the route via Leeds is often used as a diversionary
route when the main line is closed, and indeed on Sundays trains
frequently take the Leeds route.

I am most concerned to ensure that the DfT is meeting its legal
obligations in respect of Routeing Guide changes, therefore I would
you like you explain why you agreed to this change, when you agreed
to this change, and I would also like the decision reversed and for
the Leeds route to be permitted.

If the Leeds route is not re-instated promptly, this matter will be
robustly pursued.

Yours faithfully,

Glynn Magheramorne
 

Tim R-T-C

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Related question, should/would/is a Leeds to Doncaster ticket valid via York?

Basically if I went for a day of spotting in Donny, could I go up to York for a change of scene and then back to Leeds?
 

34D

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Alternatively, to be valid on the fasts:
Donny-Wakey SDR £8.20
Wakey-Leeds CDR £3.60
Total £11.80

Note that a couple of Don-Lds omit Wakefield.

Related question, should/would/is a Leeds to Doncaster ticket valid via York?

Basically if I went for a day of spotting in Donny, could I go up to York for a change of scene and then back to Leeds?

I was going to say yes, however the technical answer may be different.
 

Tim R-T-C

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I was going to say yes, however the technical answer may be different.

That is what I thought. Not to mention that you might get a conductor who lets you go one way, but an different conductor might stop you on the way back.
 

clagmonster

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Related question, should/would/is a Leeds to Doncaster ticket valid via York?

Basically if I went for a day of spotting in Donny, could I go up to York for a change of scene and then back to Leeds?
Tickets are valid via direct trains, the shortest route and by routes shown in the National Routeing Guide. There are no Leeds-Doncaster via York trains and the shortest route is via Wakefield. Therefore, to find the answer to this, we refer to the National Routeing Guide: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Leeds is a routeing point.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 36

Doncaster is a routeing point.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 19

JL is the only routeing permission for Leeds-Doncaster.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 563

Map JL gives:
Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf

Thus, there is no permitted route via York.
 

brompton rail

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Apart from that GNER stated around 5 years ago that tickets from leeds or york to donc (and points south) were valid via the other.

Only during disruption - say wires down/cable theft between Doncaster and Wakefield/Leeds. Then KX - Leeds services often divert to York. No good if you have split ticketted though!
 

34D

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Only during disruption - say wires down/cable theft between Doncaster and Wakefield/Leeds. Then KX - Leeds services often divert to York. No good if you have split ticketted though!

Two points:

-was a general statement not just applicable to diversions, however I can't find any reference to it.

-in times of unplanned disruption, persons with split tickets _are_ conveyed to their destination by alternatve routes. Example splitting doncaster-leeds at wakefield, and flooding resulting in diversions via Hambleton - you'll be carried to Leeds. Though if diversions were PLANNED you would be on the rail rep bus
 

yorkie

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Apart from that GNER stated around 5 years ago that tickets from leeds or york to donc (and points south) were valid via the other.
There have been a lot of changes in the last 5 years to the Routeing Guide in this area. The DfT has approved all the changes and must justify the changes, they must also consult Passenger Focus. Perhaps some probing questions should be asked?

Around 5 years ago it is true that they harmonised the fares from York/Leeds to places beyond Doncaster, and got rid rid of silly things like "Micklefield to London route Any Permitted is not valid via York but route York is valid via Leeds" however they did not harmonise the local fares to Doncaster.

York-Doncaster has always traditionally been valid via Leeds, trains go that way fairly often and the DfT have no justification for approving ATOCs outrageous removal of this route.

Leeds-Doncaster was made valid via York when they removed York-Doncaster via Leeds, but this was then also removed, around 2 years ago.

As the DfT approve all these changes, and Passenger Focus must be consulted, by law, both bodies should have records of all of this.
 

34D

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Around 5 years ago it is true that they harmonised the fares from York/Leeds to places beyond Doncaster

I apologise - memory is not 100%

I'll be interested to hear the response to the FOI mentioned earlier. Can FOI requests be made to EC, given they're public sector at present?

Have the DfT done _any_ consultation on _any_ changes to the routeing guide?
 

OwlMan

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Since the National Routeing Guide was computerised in 2002 the mapped routes for Doncaster - York have not shown via Leeds as a valid route.
It was shown as a valid route in the original non-computerised editions issued in 1997/8.

Peter
 

John @ home

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Can FOI requests be made to EC, given they're public sector at present?
Yes, East Coast Main Line Company answers FoI requests.
Have the DfT done _any_ consultation on _any_ changes to the routeing guide?
A summary of the position is in DfT's letter to T McCabe dated 14 January 2010.
Changes to the (NRG) may be needed from time to time, if errors are discovered, new rail routes opened or reopened, additional routes are to be allowed, or train operators propose to disallow a route. The ATOC document, the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (TSA) allows changes to permitted routes to be made. The TSA requires ATOC to obtain approval from the Secretary of State for any changes, and that the SoS consults with Passenger Focus to ensure that passengers' routing flexibility is preserved.

Approximately 20,000 flows were amended in and around 2001/2 through this full change process. Since the Department for Transport have been responsible for the change approval process to the NRG no such requests have been received at all from ATOC in the intervening period. Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are negative easements.

It may be helpful to explain the concept of easements. A normal easement allows additional permissions, even including doubling back which is normally forbidden. One such example is a trip from Spooner Row to Cambridge via Norwich even though this adds 25.50 miles to the shortest route because the service from Spooner Row is very sparse. A negative easement however as in the Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through train providing the journey. In this instance the Fife circle services are regular.

The ATOC National Routeing guide permissions feature on the internet in their own right but they also show up in journey planners such as that on the hugely popular NRE website and these sort of sites function on extremely complex software and are dynamic, being subject to routine maintenance by ATOC at the request of train operators and passengers. Many of these maintenance functions are driven by the need to make additional permissions for passengers, typically changes are made to allow additional routes during engineering blockades. Others involve the development of additional mapping to illustrate more clearly the actual routes which are permitted from one station to another. These routine functions do not require the use of the formal change process because they are either relaxations of restricted routes or clarifications of existing routes

If you believe there have been substantive changes to the guide that may have reduced passenger choice between two stations it really would be best to approach ATOC in the first instance providing them with the fullest details so that they can investigate. Given the necessarily tortuous complexity of the suite of software architecture that supports the guide and journey planners. mistakes can and are occasionally made.

ATOC are however keen to ensure the continuing accuracy and integrity of the guide and has told me he would be prepared to examine any written specific station to station list of submissions from you regarding the accuracy of the guide.

I am sure they would welcome your positive input. If you are not satisfied with their response then a dispute on any flow and the permitted routes that remained outstanding would be formally referred to the Department by ATOC for a judgment to be made.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changes_to_naitonal_rail_routein#incoming-65101

It is interesting to read DfT's opinion that the negative easements involving stations on the Fife circle would prevent passengers travelling the long way round the circle on a through train. It is evident from several posts on this forum that this has not been achieved. My guess is that over a hundred members of this forum would have been able to draft changes more effectively.
 
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