156s do have drivers train door controls but certainly ours are never to be used by instruction. Some 158s but not all had them, all ours were ripped out. I *think* off the top of my head the number 1 end of class 153 have them but not the number 2 (new) end. There's not anywhere in the cabs to put VDUs for cameras though.
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DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements
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It's been said previously on this forum that new DOO schemes using platform mounted monitors /mirrors/ lookback are no longer allowed , if so then the 319s would still need a fair bit of work to fit external door cameras and cab monitors to continue to operate DOO on their new routes, All currently running ex BR slide door unit cabs were originally equipped for DOO but much has since been removed and plated over during various refurbs
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Bletchleyite
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(from the locked thread)
Is that true of the new-style on-train CCTV such as that fitted to Southern's Electrostars? If so, why is it? My suggestion would be that it should remain on until the driver turns it off having fully left the platform.
Neil
Is that true of the new-style on-train CCTV such as that fitted to Southern's Electrostars? If so, why is it? My suggestion would be that it should remain on until the driver turns it off having fully left the platform.
Neil
So the driver can drive!
Would you want the driver to be looking at the monitors and miss somebody falling/jumping in front or the signal going back or several other very good reasons why the driver needs to be looking out the front windows as the train leaves the platform!
My suggestion is that you are quite young and don't actually know very much about this subject which you are so quick to offer as a solution to something which isn't really a problem.
The 'quicker' opening certainly isn't anything to write home about and a good guard will be able to hurry people up and save a few seconds at every station which means that guard worked trains can actually be quicker than DOOR trains because the passenger's will take their time boarding because there isn't anyone blowing a whistle at them to speed them up.
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Monty
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Pretty much this, as soon as the train starts to move the driver needs to have his attention fully focused on the line in front of him. He does not need the added distraction of looking at monitors of the side of the train.
CCTV on the Underground trains that has it fitted allows the Train Operator to view the train as it leaves the platform. Of course there are a few differences such as some Network Rail stations not having a signal at the end of the platform which may slightly increase the risk of a Spad, but I myself have had no issues with monitoring the PTI at the same time as observing the road ahead.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW Deutsche Bahn disagree - it is usual for drivers to stick their head out of the window and look back as they depart. And SBB with their loco mounted rear view mirrors. And bus drivers, who easily have as much to watch for.
As for the previous poster, comments on my age are irrelevant to the subject under discussion, though if it makes any difference I am 35.
As for timings, on a local service seconds matter. Merseyrail, for example, had to add two minutes to the Liverpool to Ormskirk timings when hustle alarms were fitted.
Neil
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "people running around on the end of the platforms?" Are you referring to the fact that shorter trains sometimes stop towards the rear of the platforms? If so, I am not sure how this would affect the operation of in-cab CCTV.
It wouldn't!
But it would effect your ability to see somebody fall in front of you if you are looking at the monitors.
Most LU trains stop at the end of the platform so no (non railway) distractions in front!
This will be my last post on this thread which is turning into a DOO love in!
Monty
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Just because it's accepted policy for one railway operator (be it foreign or domestic) doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea and should be adopted by others. For example I for one would be rather concerned if we leaned towards a Japanese model of operation considering how their staff are treated and the pressures put upon them.
Also I'm not quite sure what you mean about adding extra time to timetables because of hustle alarms, if anything it should take less time as they are there to tell passengers to get a wriggle on.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
With regard to hustle alarms, you're presumably speaking from the point of view of a driver on heavily overcrowded SWT suburban services? Merseyrail does not suffer this issue, and as such all adding them did was to add 10 seconds to the door closure procedure.
Bus drivers are regulated in a different way though , As for other overseas operators thats how they operate . What about japan where they retain guards on local services ? we could quote international examples all day but what it boils down to is the opinion of people who do the relavant jobs .
I know drivers who would not want to go out there on their own , they dont want to have to deal with stuff like potential accidents , fatalities , derailments on their own . They want to have another safety critical member of staff on the train as back up . I can fully understand that I wouldn't want to be out their on my own .
As for timing , minutes also get added to timetables for leaffall , and what ? It doesn't make any difference if time is added to timetables because its timetables that dictate pathing and stuff like that , its when time delays occur outside of the timetable that things go wrong.
Im sure time delays could be incurred with stuff like passengers trying to load bikes , buggies , big suitcases stuff like that . I have before walked down and told someone there is no chance that they are getting their bike on despite them standing with their front wheel in the train and the rest of the bike off it . If it was DOO you would either need platform staff everywhere in case that happened everywhere . Or the driver would have to secure his cab , walk down , tell the person this and then return to his cab .
For what it's worth I've been involved in several issues over the last few months that show why having a single safety trained individual is a lousy idea. My train failed as one example and while the driver was underneath it in the driving rain trying to fix it, I was alternating between detraining and assisting the passengers around a reasonably sized but unmanned station (using my own detailed knowledge of my route), liaising with control about customer service and operational issues while the driver handled his safety critical comms with the signaller to keep himself safe, and using my own traction knowledge to assist the driver with rectifying the fault while we were stopping the job with the nearest fitters 10s of miles away (no built up urban area here).
He didn't have 10 seconds to spare to talk to or reassure the busy train load of passengers, particularly while he was underneath it, and 2 hands and brains were far better than one. Particularly when due to the fault the emergency brakes applied in a tunnel and swift action was required both to nip any panic in the bud and get the unit limping again.
He didn't have 10 seconds to spare to talk to or reassure the busy train load of passengers, particularly while he was underneath it, and 2 hands and brains were far better than one. Particularly when due to the fault the emergency brakes applied in a tunnel and swift action was required both to nip any panic in the bud and get the unit limping again.
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Must be a great place to be a guard! No weekend working, or late nights
Fincra5
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I can't imagine fitting DOO equipment to old trains is an easy task. And the cost of installing DOO equipment to platforms isn't cheap.
To increase revenue why don't they try and adapt older trains to have door release at every door, like 450's. The reason we don't work 377's often from the back cab (where its safest) is for the dollar! (A manager once told me)
To increase revenue why don't they try and adapt older trains to have door release at every door, like 450's. The reason we don't work 377's often from the back cab (where its safest) is for the dollar! (A manager once told me)
Bletchleyite
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323235
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Are they non-commercial guards then? How many do they have? More to the point how many 12 car services do they have? Must be a very easy job compared to other guard roles.
Fincra5
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Bit like SWT Non-Commercial guards I guess. And aye it seems the DOO equipment is not suited for 12 cars...
357's have no cameras from what i've seen, and rely on Mirrors. Which I believe are unsuitable for 12car DOO. I could be wrong there.
87015
Established Member
No 12 car DOO equipment provided on install as wasn't justified for the very few 12 car trains as c2c DOO equipment is franchise owned not NR like elsewhere. It was in the new franchise ITT for 12 car DOO to be put in place however so presumably new mirrors/cameras going in at some stage.
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Fincra5
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In my opinion.. They might say it would increase revenue but it seems more of a way to employ less staff and less cost.
When I've been on C2C and Greater Anglia I've not had my tickets checked on a DOO service. The only time it has it by a Guard.
When I've been on C2C and Greater Anglia I've not had my tickets checked on a DOO service. The only time it has it by a Guard.
superhands
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You got to love the misinformation about performance on the c2c, website does it mention that when guards worked on the line it was slam door stock!
That was mostly the case but latterly they also worked all the 317s and 357s for several years before DOO came in around 2004
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bramling
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It's certainly possible, but it's definitely not ideal by any means. Certainly on LUL looking at the monitors has been cited as a causal factor in very many SPADs on the lines fitted with in-cab monitors.
I would suggest that this risk is tolerated thanks to the SPAD risk on LUL being mitigated by the trainstop/tripcock system, or other forms of ATP, and the (virtual) guarantee that the train would stop within a designated overlap.
On the mainline there is no guarantee that any form of protection will be provided (TPWS not universal), plus on the mainline the overlap is provided to cater for driver misjudgement rather than disregard.
I would concur with others that on the mainline I would prefer for the driver's attention to be focussed on the road ahead.
Having said all of this, the most important safety-critical part of the process is the safety check between closing the doors and starting to move the train. In this respect I would view in-cab monitors as perfectly adequate, but they should definitely switch off the moment the train starts to move. On LUL it's fair to say you cannot *rely* on the driver picking up an unsafe incident in the monitors once the train starts to move, as drivers are taught to balance their time between checking the monitor and observing the road ahead, the simple reality is it's impossible to reliably carry out both tasks at the same time - and this has been officially acknowledged in human-factors studies.
It's also worth adding that the in-cab monitors on LUL are not fantastically reliable, due to the realities of the technology available. LUL mitigates against this risk by having procedures that rely on station staff being available as a fall-back at platforms where all doors cannot safety be seen from the cab. On the mainline many stations would be unstaffed or the staff present might not be safety-critical.
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