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Doors required to be unlocked between MUs on West Midlands Trains?

DBTrainUser

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Doors between MUs are required to be unlocked whilst in passenger service?

Where would this be referred to? RSSB rules? West Midlands Trains SOP? Another document?

Thanks in advance
 
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SCDR_WMR

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It's something the company has decided. Specifically since the introduction of the class 730/0 fleet.*

Causing issues with guards as they cannot operate from the middle cabs without the connecting doors being shut to passengers unless spending their shifts stood up as cannot use the driver's chair in the gangway is open.

*This was also specified on class 172s but as middle cabs are dead this wasn't really an issue
 

trundlewagon

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It's something the company has decided. Specifically since the introduction of the class 730/0 fleet.*

Causing issues with guards as they cannot operate from the middle cabs without the connecting doors being shut to passengers unless spending their shifts stood up as cannot use the driver's chair in the gangway is open.

*This was also specified on class 172s but as middle cabs are dead this wasn't really an issue
It is a wee bit annoying that a number of guards seem to lock the gangway out regardless of how busy the train is. Undermines the purpose of having the gangway in the first place and is particularly irritating when, as seems to be very common, one of the toilets is out of use on a 6 car...
 

PupCuff

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Doors between MUs are required to be unlocked whilst in passenger service?
Where would this be referred to? RSSB rules? West Midlands Trains SOP? Another document?
TIA.
Well, it's a requirement of the RSSB rule book that all internal doors are unlocked except where they're at each end of the train, at each side of any gangway connections which can't be made, or that leads to accommodation which isn't for public use. What instructions individual companies put out is a matter for themselves, but if you're following the rule book, they should ordinarily be unlocked.
 

185

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If there was a requirement for passengers to walk forward, into the front unit for a short platform I'd understand the company-imposed rules (not ORR or RSSB), however the fact that all platforms fit six cars and even if some were short, ASDO allows customers off at the precise number of doors... ergo the company argument doors must be open on safety grounds, fire safety etc is baseless. Their sole remaining argument is for customer experience - however when it comes to the ASB-filled line those double units are mostly on, it's probably better the staff close the connection doors over and work away from the passengers to ensure the resilience of the service. Northerns CAF mess should not be allowed to spread - trains heavily delayed or given not to call orders as the staff can't get to or safely remain at the mid saloon panel during overcrowding, ASB, events, trouble etc.

Long term it would be an aspiration to have the connection doors open, I get it - however modifications need to take place - perhaps remove the huge seat on the second mans side & added a flip down, modify one side of the connector doors - all costs money but the person who ordered them to the current specification failed to consider the what if... ie assumed DOO would happen.
 

SCDR_WMR

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It is a wee bit annoying that a number of guards seem to lock the gangway out regardless of how busy the train is. Undermines the purpose of having the gangway in the first place and is particularly irritating when, as seems to be very common, one of the toilets is out of use on a 6 car...
A knock on the door and letting them know you need to use the other toilet would suffice. No guard would prevent that from happening.

You'll regularly find the doors of a 2x350 due to training or ride outs, doesn't actually prevent anything but is required so 2 people can work in a cab.
 

DelW

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Their sole remaining argument is for customer experience - however when it comes to the ASB-filled line those double units are mostly on, it's probably better the staff close the connection doors over and work away from the passengers to ensure the resilience of the service. Northerns CAF mess should not be allowed to spread - trains heavily delayed or given not to call orders as the staff can't get to or safely remain at the mid saloon panel during overcrowding, ASB, events, trouble etc.
You'll regularly find the doors of a 2x350 due to training or ride outs, doesn't actually prevent anything but is required so 2 people can work in a cab.
Is there a reason why the back cab can't be used in those situations?
 

SCDR_WMR

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Is there a reason why the back cab can't be used in those situations?
Depending on the station, some have mandatory positions due to curvature.

Also, UDS on 350 routes requires being in cab 3.


Doesn’t help if the guard is in the other unit.
Which shouldn't happen as they should be in the front of the rear unit side anyway. If the staff operated 323s this was mandatory to be in the rear of a double set.
 

The exile

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Which shouldn't happen as they should be in the front of the rear unit side anyway. If the staff operated 323s this was mandatory to be in the rear of a double set.
And if you’re in the front unit with a defective toilet? At the very least there’s going to be two end doors between you and the guard who has to hear your knocking above the noise of a moving train.
 
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Over time, the visibility of train guards has reduced on WMR services. Now that they don't check or sell tickets, typically they are only visible when unlocking/locking the doors. There are other good reasons for those guards being there, but the public facing value has certainly reduced significantly in recent years.
 

SCDR_WMR

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What if it's a triple needing to deselect to 8 coaches, do they still need to be in the 3rd cab or are they in the 5th?
Obviously not, that's why I said 2x350. For the 3x350 on the Trent you are constantly moving around the train for either mandatory or optimal positioning, due to UDS (cab 3 or 5 if calling at Bushey which is unlikely) or curvature issues.

And if you’re in the front unit with a defective toilet? At the very least there’s going to be two end doors between you and the guard who has to hear your knocking above the noise of a moving train.
But only the 1 passenger door should be closed, as happens now with 350s. Either way you're knocking on a door to the specific cab that is closed. A simple announcement letting passengers know to knock if they need to move between units.

Over time, the visibility of train guards has reduced on WMR services. Now that they don't check or sell tickets, typically they are only visible when unlocking/locking the doors. There are other good reasons for those guards being there, but the public facing value has certainly reduced significantly in recent years.
Very much depends on the route (and guard). COVID times made it very easy for guards to lock themselves away and some haven't bothered to come back out.
 

Peter Mugridge

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But only the 1 passenger door should be closed, as happens now with 350s. Either way you're knocking on a door to the specific cab that is closed. A simple announcement letting passengers know to knock if they need to move between units.
That's not in my experience... I find roughly a third of all 350 workings have the gangways closed, and in these instances the doors are always locked in both units and the button is not illuminated in either. I have only had one instance of 730s being blocked between units, and again in that instance both doors were closed off.

The result was a quick dash along the platform between units at a station.
 

moogal

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It's very annoying as it's not very clear to passengers why they would be locked shut, given it's pretty inconsistent. I've been caught out before by this - boarded a train attempting to do some work and found that the wifi on one unit was defective, but had to wait til the next station to move forward into the other unit. I've even seen guards coming through to do a ticket check re-lock the doors behind them!
 

Kite159

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There are some guards who will lock out the gangway doors on pairs of 350s, even if the toilets have failed in that unit. I've been on services from Crewe where as soon as the train departs Atherstone heading to London the guard locks the gangway out of use. The sort who will sit in the middle cab only popping out to do the doors at stations with no customer visibility on the train.

Even on a Birmingham - London train where the guards change at Northampton. One of the first things the replacement guard did was lock out the gangway causing issues as it trapped someone in the front unit who had stuff in the rear unit but moved forward to find a working toilet.

Sadly I can see nothing happening until something happens and passengers get injured as a direct result of having the gangway doors locked out of use and unable to be used as an emergency escape
 
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SCDR_WMR

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That's not in my experience... I find roughly a third of all 350 workings have the gangways closed, and in these instances the doors are always locked in both units and the button is not illuminated in either. I have only had one instance of 730s being blocked between units, and again in that instance both doors were closed off.

The result was a quick dash along the platform between units at a station.
Is this on a specific route? There should never be a situation with both sets of doors locked. But also, the button should not be illuminated if the full cab is in use so that I don't have an issue with.

The only time I ever have 1 door locked it when I'm cashing up at the end of my shift for security reasons. That or a ride out with a manager. And I've never locked both ends out.

It should also go without saying, that should a cab door be locked, the guard should always open it if someone knocks on it!
 

WAB

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Yes, unfortunately West Mids guards do have a poor reputation for locking out the gangway doors and hiding away from the public.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Is this on a specific route? There should never be a situation with both sets of doors locked. But also, the button should not be illuminated if the full cab is in use so that I don't have an issue with.
Out of Euston on the Tring and Milton Keynes circuit.
 

slowroad

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There are some guards who will lock out the gangway doors on pairs of 350s, even if the toilets have failed in that unit. I've been on services from Crewe where as soon as the train departs Atherstone heading to London the guard locks the gangway out of use. The sort who will sit in the middle cab only popping out to do the doors at stations with no customer visibility on the train.

Even on a Birmingham - London train where the guards change at Northampton. One of the first things the replacement guard did was lock out the gangway causing issues as it trapped someone in the front unit who had stuff in the rear unit but moved forward to find a working toilet.

Sadly I can see nothing happening until something happens and passengers get injured as a direct result of having the gangway doors locked out of use and unable to be used as an emergency escape
Why is management so ineffective?
 

Russel

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Over time, the visibility of train guards has reduced on WMR services. Now that they don't check or sell tickets, typically they are only visible when unlocking/locking the doors. There are other good reasons for those guards being there, but the public facing value has certainly reduced significantly in recent years.

I've not seen any guard leave the cab on the cross city for a long time now.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have only been kept because no one wants to pick a fight with the unions.
 

SCDR_WMR

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I've not seen any guard leave the cab on the cross city for a long time now.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have only been kept because no one wants to pick a fight with the unions.
That and drivers won't accept DOO.
 
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Every guard that fails to do customer service duties such as ticket checks on trains without a good reason gives those calling for DOO a little bit more ammunition.
The guard is a very versatile and potentially very popular member of Railway staff but WMT management do not offer any meaningful reward or encouragement to guards to carry out customer service duties in the train.
A guard who sells 20 tickets a day is treated exactly the same as the guard who sells one a day.
Customer service training is minimal which means that avoidable conflict is never far away which further encourages invisibility.
Before anyone tries to blame RMT for this there is nothing stopping WMT management from highlighting the importance of guards doing customer service in the train, and recognising those who work hard.
 

800001

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Every guard that fails to do customer service duties such as ticket checks on trains without a good reason gives those calling for DOO a little bit more ammunition.
The guard is a very versatile and potentially very popular member of Railway staff but WMT management do not offer any meaningful reward or encouragement to guards to carry out customer service duties in the train.
A guard who sells 20 tickets a day is treated exactly the same as the guard who sells one a day.
Customer service training is minimal which means that avoidable conflict is never far away which further encourages invisibility.
Before anyone tries to blame RMT for this there is nothing stopping WMT management from highlighting the importance of guards doing customer service in the train, and recognising those who work hard.
Surely the salary and the benefits the guards get is enough ‘encouragement’?

Any other industry where the member of staff failed to carry out there duties would be performance managed out of the company.
 
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Don't most TOCs have commission for guards for each ticket scanned?
I'm guessing WMT does not
WMT does but it doesn't add up to much particularly on the local routes, add the fact that cross city trains stop every two to three minutes which provides very little time to issue a ticket without affecting performance.

Surely the salary and the benefits the guards get is enough ‘encouragement’?

Any other industry where the member of staff failed to carry out there duties would be performance managed out of the company.
I think you'll find performance management is exactly what is missing at WMT.
The issue is a lack of management by the management itself.
 

dingdinger

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For what it's worth I had a different experience on wmt last month- the friendly conductor was walking through the train regularly, checking tickets, then checking again for any new people boarding, managing the issues with the onboard toilets (regular pa updates) and arranging a toilet stop with control. I can't comment if the gangway doors were locked as I didn't need to walk through.
 

SCDR_WMR

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A guard who sells 20 tickets a day is treated exactly the same as the guard who sells one a day..
Just to comment on this particular point, onboard ticket sales are very different now to 2019.

It's very route dependant, but with increased and targeted RPI deployment over the past few years, there are routes where you simply won't sell more than 1 or 2 tickets even if you constantly patrol the train. I scanned over 250 tickets the other day and failed to sell a single ticket - so ticket sales are not a useful way of measuring the productivity of guards on WMT anymore. My commission is less than 10% of what it was prior to COVID with no noticeable difference in passenger numbers except morning rush on London services.

Whilst I agree that the management of train crew could obviously be far more proactive and consistent, the overall picture is not so bleak. Ticketless travel is down, digital fraud team raking in hundreds of thousands per quarter and an overall content workforce.

There will always be some who don't work to the maximum given train crew essentially manager themselves as each manager looks after approximately 30 staff on differing shifts so can probably only touch base once every 8-10 weeks.
 

scrapy

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Well, it's a requirement of the RSSB rule book that all internal doors are unlocked except where they're at each end of the train, at each side of any gangway connections which can't be made, or that leads to accommodation which isn't for public use. What instructions individual companies put out is a matter for themselves, but if you're following the rule book, they should ordinarily be unlocked.
But if they've decided the vestibule and cab areas are not for public use then they are permitted to be locked.
 

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