Double-Decker carriages

[subway156]

Are there any double-decker carriages in use in the UK? I've seen many photos of them used here and in other parts of the world. Does anyone know?

 

[GNERman]

no, there are none currently in use, and their hasn't really been due to tunnels, bridges, ohle and clearance.

There was a Bullied EMU of which 2 were built and tested on the southern in which a sprial staircase was used, one car is preserved I belive...

 

[90019]

Are there any double-decker carriages in use in the UK? I've seen many photos of them used here and in other parts of the world. Does anyone know?

There are none currently in use sue to the restrictive loading gauge.

As said, there were two prototye 4DD EMUs, but they were abandoned due to the much increased loading times caused by the access to the upper compartments - through the lower ones, which meant you had double th number of people through the same number of doors. And IIRC, they were quite claustrophobic as well.

IIRC there are 2 driving cars preserved, and there was one trailer car, but it was scrapped.

 

[Vulcan]

There wasn't, but here is what it might have looked like if there was a few years ago...

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p28196784.html

a work of photoshopping genius, as always from this site.

 

[Bighat]

no, there are none currently in use, and their hasn't really been due to tunnels, bridges, ohle and clearance.

There was a Bullied EMU of which 2 were built and tested on the southern in which a sprial staircase was used, one car is preserved I belive...

Yes, but weren't they built to conform with 'normal' loading gauges?

I cannot think that there is anywhere on the Southern in the London area where an out of gauge unit could possibly operate, and as they were built for high density work, that is where they would have to be!

 

[Vulcan]

there is a pic of the preserved coach SR double decker here:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...ck+EMU&hl=en&rlz=1T4SMSN_en___GB356&sa=N&um=1

yes, seems to be within normal loading gauges.

 

[Death]

Are there any double-decker carriages in use in the UK? I've seen many photos of them used here and in other parts of the world. Does anyone know?

Sadly, there isn't currently any double-deck rolling stock operating in the UK, and probabally won't ever be, unless a very cramped design gets approved for passenger service (Not likely).

Our loading guage - With a max working height of about four metres (Roughly 12ft) from the top of the rail in C1 loading gauge - Is one of the most constrictive in the World. In most places on the UK network, the very limited clearances between a train's profile and surrounding structures (Bridges, tunnels, OHLE etc) means that double-deck trains wouldn't be able to physically fit onto our lines. hock:

A possible exception to this - I believe (Someone else'll have to confirm/deny this) - Is HS1 between London and Folkestone. As it was designed recently and built to standard European loading guages, most French and German rolling stock would be able to use it if the need ever arose...And I'd imagine that it could accommodate certain French RER and German RE stock (Both of which use double-deck stock on some workings) as well as the more predictable ICE and TGV!

There was a Bullied EMU of which 2 were built and tested on the southern in which a sprial staircase was used, one car is preserved I belive...

I've read up a little on the Bulleid EMU over time as I've often been quite interested in it, and - From what my original research tells me - The Bulleid design wasn't a "double-deck" in the conventional sense, and certainly didn't make use of a spiral staircase from what I know.
Unless of course, ye are referring to an earlier/later prototype that I'm not familiar with.

Because there isn't really enough room in a C1 gauge to fit two passenger decks like those on a double-deck bus - Aside from the fact that construction techniques in Bulleids day couldn't support a slung floor just over the rail head, like the ones on DBAG doubles - Bulleid insted went for a more "mezzanine" orientated approach towards fitting the upper deck in.

In short, this meant that the "lower" deck (Which was roughly 6" below typical platform height) was arranged into compartments similar to the first-class ones on a Mk. 1 CEP or CIG, albeit without the corridor. In the space above the "lower" compartments "upper" compartments were located - Each offset from the lower deck by about half a compartment - With upper compartment seating situated above the partition wall between two adjacent lower compartments.
Each lower compartment had a short flight of steps communicating with it's corresponding upper compartment.

Sadly, I'm not that good at being descriptive - Especially when trying to describe something that was only ever prototyped and isn't that well known. However, I did manage to find a cutaway of how the carriages were arranged via Google Images, which I'm copying across to the board and attaching to this post for historical preservation:

Image credit: The Bulleid Double Decker Society website at http://dart75.tripod.com/bdds.htm - Copied here by Death on 10th Jan 2010CE.​

As it is, I have some ideas of my own for double-deck stock variants (Have initial ideas for Mk. III/HST, Mk. IV/APT, and most Desiro versions so far) that could fit inside our C1 gauge, but alas one of the biggest practical headaches for passengers would be the quite constrictive internal deck height of 1.80m (About 5' 8") which would necessitate at least one single deck carriage in each rake for tall and clustrophobic passengers.

Addendum: Woah...Where did all those posts suddenly appear from?!?!? hock:

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[90019]

 

[Helvellyn]

CityRail in Sydney operate double deck trains. They use various 4-car units that operate as 8-cars. In the late 1980s they introduced Tangara sets, and I've put some images from Wiki below. They have wide entrance doors, wide connecting doors between coaches and from experience loading doesn't seem an issue. They also have platform level seating above the bogies where wheelchairs, buggies, etc can go (as well as toilets on longer distance units). Sadly our loading guage won't support such tains, but the fact Bulleid was looking at it all those years ago shows that capacity has always been an issue into and out of London!

The latest units introduced in the 2000s are the Millennium sets and the long distance variety called Oscars.

 

[jopsuk]

The restrictive loading gauge is one of the (many) prices we pay for being first.

I know the Great Central was designed to a "European" loading gauge- was this just in width, or height as well?

 

[Burkitt]

DCA, the industrial design company responsible for rolling stock including the LU 1986 prototypes, the front of the Eurotunnel Shuttle locos and Sydney's Tangara double deck trains, produced a design study for a UK loading gauge double decker train, which can be found on page 16 of this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf
The train would have a narrower lower deck than upper deck in order to fit within the width of platforms, a design which is also used on Japanese double deck trains.
However, I think it's unlikely we'll ever see double decker trains on the mainline in the UK. They offer fairly limited extra capacity on commuter services, at the expense of longer dwell times. Better results can be achieved with clever single deck design like the new Francilien trains in Paris, which were chosen instead of a double deck design. The extra space would be even less on a design to fit the UK loading gauge, and expensive gauge enhancements would undoubtedly still be needed in places.
Where we will have double deck trains is on HS2, if it ever comes to fruition. To be economic it will have to carry around 20,000 passengers per hour, and that will be achieved using double decker trains. I expect these will be a double deck development of Alstom's AGV, which is reportedly already in development in response to demand from SNCF, who need to make maximum use of capacity on their crowded LGVs (see http://www.e24.fr/entreprises/trans...lstom-va-construire-un-AGV-a-deux-etages.html )

Paul

 

[subway156]

I recall growing up in the Borough of Queens (in a nice little town called Bayside) where the Long Island RR had a line that ran in the northern section of Long Island. They had doulble-decked cars back that far in the mid-1960's. I'll try and find a picture of the old stuff and I'll also post a current model used. Thank you all so much for your responses. I love learning new facts (to me) about your systems. I love what I've seen so far. My only real experience has been in Fife, Scotland. I've also been to Falkirk which was a very scenic route. The trip from Kirkaldy to Edinburgh is also quite cool. We return this coming July for my step-daughter's wedding We'll be staying on Leven beach is a nice cottage. Two weeks of lovely excursions, food, a great party, food, and did I mention all the haggis I can eat?

 

[Vulcan]

Technicly, the Swansea and Mumbles was a railway, with its massive double decker tramcars.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...ailway&hl=en&rlz=1T4SMSN_en___GB356&sa=N&um=1

http://www.route-19.co.uk/userimages/Mumbles-4.jpg

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Crikey, that pic was bigger then I expected.

 

[90019]

I recall growing up in the Borough of Queens (in a nice little town called Bayside) where the Long Island RR had a line that ran in the northern section of Long Island. They had doulble-decked cars back that far in the mid-1960's.

That's just reminded me of the Colorado Railcar DMUs that TriRail use, which are huge things. IIRC they're almost 20' tall.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/7/7/1677.1210991693.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/7/2057.1190289600.jpg

 

[Snapper]

The restrictive loading gauge is one of the (many) prices we pay for being first.

I know the Great Central was designed to a "European" loading gauge- was this just in width, or height as well?

No, it wasn't. This is an urban myth generated by the fact that the line had large clearances on sections around Rugby.

If you look at pictures of the preserved GCR you'll see that it's simply not true. You'll never hear station staff there having to say 'mind the gap'...

As for the Bullied DD stock, they were used on Dartford line services from London Bridge.

Interestingly enough, I was at a conference a few years ago where Iain Coucher (now boss of NR) mused that European DD trains would fit in our W10 clearance...

 

[Death]

DCA, the industrial design company responsible for rolling stock including the LU 1986 prototypes, the front of the Eurotunnel Shuttle locos and Sydney's Tangara double deck trains, produced a design study for a UK loading gauge double decker train, which can be found on page 16 of this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf

Cheers for posting that, Paul! I've just had a good read of it and - Though the design looks rather cramped on paper (At least from my viewpoint) - I'd certainly like to see a prototype carriage or two of that design built into existing SWT Dessie sets, and to try them out for myself on a fast working to see if they'd have the same perceptual effect on passengers as I've found on the lower decks of DB's rolling stock before now!
(The lower deck on DB's doubles is very close to the level of the rail, meaning that the downstairs seating gives the impression that the train is travelling faster than it actually is! 8))

Just out of curiosity though, I've had my own designs in mind for quite some time now. Given that this discussion seems to have gained some ground, would anyone be happy to give some feedback/critique on my designs if I sketched, scanned and posted them here?

My main design at the moment is a hi-cap Dessie with articulated bogies to allow more space to be used in DD formation, possibly even with coupling mounted doors (A principle first tried on the APT-E) for even greater capacity. However, I've also come up with DD Mk. III's, and I think I might even have figured out a way to craft W6 gauge tilting stock (Ala; APT or Pendolino) for much needed extra capacity on VT's Manchester/Brum services!

Incidentally, does anyone know what DCA are like with regard to public feedback? I know that I've had my own ideas in mind for a couple of years now, but I'd really be keen to comment on some aspects of the design and possibly provide input if I could. The reason why I hadn't submitted my ideas to anyone before now was simply because - With the sad demise of BREL - I didn't know where such ideas could be submitted!

That's just reminded me of the Colorado Railcar DMUs that TriRail use, which are huge things. IIRC they're almost 20' tall.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/7/7/1677.1210991693.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/7/2057.1190289600.jpg

Now, that's what I'd call a proper beefed-up multiple unit! Just imagine if EMT's 153's were built like that!

 

[jopsuk]

Pfft "all" we need to do is ream the whole (European) network out to Channel Tunnel (not CTRL- the actual tunnel) loading gauge. Might be an idea to replace the track with something a bit wider whilst we're at it. Just imagine the capacity a seated passenger version of the Eurotunnel Shuttle cars could have! A "well"/low floor version would proabably even have a third deck.
(wider track gauge really needed to run something that massive at speeds Death might almost approve of)

 

[Death]

Hail again!
With this conversation firing up my inventive mind a fair old deal, I spent a bit of time last night putting some of my ideas down on "paper" (As it were!)

At the moment, I'm currently stuck with using a friends rather low-spec PC (With a worn 800x600 CRT, which isn't good for drafting/drawing in the slightest!) and Windows Paint, but I've just managed to assemble the attached image from the initial diagrams that I got done last night. 8)
I've attached the JPEG to the post for direct and rapid viewing, but as the board resizes images to smaller resolutions on upload, I've included the full size JPEG and PNG images in the accompanying ZIP file for high-res viewing.

Anyhow...Putting my poor image editing skills aside for the moment, I'd be interested in what people think of what they see below. Could ye imagine this making it's merry way around the Hounslow Loop in years to come? Thy comments and constructive critique would be most welcome!
And before anyone mentions it: Aye, I can already see that the plug doors over the articulated bogies might normally find themselves fouled by the adjacent carriages when the platform is on the inside of a tight bend...But I've already come up with a sound-looking solution to work around that problem, and - Time permitting - I'll hopefully get a diagram of how these'll work up fairly soon. 8)

Farewell again, and thanks in advance for any comments!
>> Death <<

 

[Drsatan]

That's a good design Death, although the doors look a bit overscale.

 

[Vulcan]

The doors could fold into the coach, like a pacer, the advanced piece of technology that they are.

 

[Death]

That's a good design Death, although the doors look a bit overscale.

Cheers for the feedback, Dr.Satan!

The reason why the doors look overscale is simply because on this design (I've attached a full rake as a GIF) they'd need to be that big to work efficiently!

Because each set of doors serves two adjacent half carriages, and each half-carriage has twice the usual passenger capacity (That's half a 450 to every set of doors on the 452!) my outline design currently has three metre wide exterior doors! hock:
By way of comparison: The doors on DB and VR double-deckers look big enough...But if my memory serves me right, they're only about 2.25m wide...

The doors could fold into the coach, like a pacer, the advanced piece of technology that they are.

I did actually consider going down that route, but the problem with folding leaf doors is that they'd intrude into the carriage when opened...And if each leaf is 1.5m wide, that's the last thing that a commuter would want to squeeze their way around during the morning rushhour! hock:

I also gave some thought to the old "4-fold" doors that buses used to have, but I strongly doubt any kind of door design nicked off a bus would pass rail safety standards nowadays. Besides, bus doors don't really work on rail vehicles anyway...As anyone who's ever ridden a Pacer can testify!

Anyhow, I've just thrown another demo rake together and attached it to this post for anyone who's still interested...And I'll apologise at this point for the truly obscene width of it! hock:
On the bright side, I only made one of a four-car unit...The designs that I've got in mind however include 8, 10, and even 20 car variants! hock:

Farewell, and thanks again for thy comments!
>> Death <<

 

[krus_aragon]

On the bright side, I only made one of a four-car unit...The designs that I've got in mind however include 8, 10, and even 20 car variants! hock:

Eek, are you going to pay for the platform extensions as well?

 

[poshbakerloo]

There wasn't, but here is what it might have looked like if there was a few years ago...

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p28196784.html

a work of photoshopping genius, as always from this site.

haha looks good!

 

[jopsuk]

That's just reminded me of the Colorado Railcar DMUs that TriRail use, which are huge things. IIRC they're almost 20' tall.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/7/7/1677.1210991693.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/7/2057.1190289600.jpg

Just read up about them- the motor cars seat 165 passengers + bikes and luggage, the trailers seat 188 passengers + have luggage/bike space. HUGE doesn't even come into it!
Edit: hmm, manufacturer's site suggests 188 for the motor cars, 218 for trailers. But I guess that depends somewhat on configuration- perhaps Tri Rail in Florida actually went as far as sacrificing some seats for BIKE SPACE on their commuter trains

 

[RobShipway]

With the fact that people are saying about building HS2, would this be designed does anyone think to take in the future perhaps double deck trains if not at the outset?

 

[Dennis]

Out of interest, one of the perceived problems with double decked trains is the extended loading / unloading times; does anywhere use double decked platforms to overcome this?

 

[jon0844]

That works very well on the Hong Kong ferries. I suppose on a railway, the problem is the overhead lines.

 

[Dennis]

I suppose on a railway, the problem is the overhead lines.

valid point if trying to shoehorn DD stock onto lines where clearances are a problem and I suppose neutral sections are not a good idea around stations. However, for a system specifically designed for doubledeckers, it does seem an obvious solution to me.

 

[jon0844]

It would make sense for HS2 and any new lines to be built to take bigger/taller trains. I am sure that would automatically be the case.

Do they have double deck loading anywhere else in the world?

 

[poshbakerloo]

There wasn't, but here is what it might have looked like if there was a few years ago...

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p28196784.html

a work of photoshopping genius, as always from this site.

haha they site has some great pics