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Double-decker trains could hit Britain’s railways to ease overcrowding

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sprinterguy

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This is an article from the Daily Mail, so perhaps needs to be taken with a (very) large pinch of salt, but I thought was worthy of discussion. I am curious as to which Network Rail reports the article is referring – Presumably a draft Route Utilisation Strategy or somesuch.

I think I have seen the possibility of double-deck trains on the South West main line before, where it was largely ruled out due to the complications of fitting such trains into the restrictive British loading gauge. I've highlighted a couple of pertinent sentences to this effect mid-article.
Double-decker trains could hit Britain’s railways to ease overcrowding on busiest routes: Smaller seats for passengers and new London terminus also among plans

Double-decker trains can carry over 50 per cent more passengers
But they would require significant modifications to routes and stations
Rail 'flyovers' also suggested to speed up express services on busy routes


Published: 21:51, 14 December 2014 | Updated: 09:48, 15 December 2014

Bus passengers are already well used to 'going upstairs' in most of Britain's cities, but now trains may be set to get another level.

Double-decker carriages on busy services are just one of the ideas proposed to pre-empt an explosion in passenger numbers.

Other measures include building rail 'flyovers' for express services to bypass busy stations and squeezing more passengers into narrower seats.

The first new London terminus in nearly 120 years is also mooted.

The proposals are included in a series of reports by Network Rail, the agency that administers most of Britain's rail infrastructure.

The reports, seen by The Sunday Times, set out the options for the coming three decades, during which passenger numbers are expected to double from 1.6billion to 3.2billion a year.

Train companies have already been shamed by figures revealing some routes regularly carry double the passengers they should at peak times, with many thousands forced to stand on long commutes.

It's with this overcrowding in mind that Network Rail officials propose introducing double-decker trains during busy periods between Basingstoke, Woking and London Waterloo.

The 7.32 Woking to Waterloo is Britain's most-overcrowded morning rush hour train, designed to carry 738 passengers but actually cramming 1,278 on board - or 540 more than it should.

Another proposal would be to use double-deckers between London and Southampton, which could ferry up to 7,000 more workers into the capital during peak hours.

Proposals are still at an early stage. Mark Hookham, The Sunday Times' transport correspondent, reports that it was decided that none of the double-decker carriages in use abroad were suitable for Britain's railways, where station platforms are higher than elsewhere and much older railway laid with too small a loading gauge.

The latter of the double-decker proposals would also involve the rebuilding of several low bridges and tunnels, which could offer poor value for money,
the paper cited one report as warning.

Other proposals included the construction of a £100million rail 'flyover' at Woking, and another at Basingstoke costing up to £175million, which would allow express services to quickly bypass those stations.

Another scheme was to increase the number of carriages that cram five seats abreast, a move admitted to be drastically unpopular with the travelling public.

Officials concede that while shrinking seats from 17.7in wide to 16.9in would mean more seats overall, 'it is known that some passengers prefer to stand rather than sit in the middle seat of three on busy trains.'

Another report includes a proposal for the first new rail terminus in London since Marylebone was built in 1899 to connect to the Anglia rail network, as well as more platforms at Liverpool Street Station.

The reports come amid criticism of train companies from campaigners who say that if they were carrying animals instead of human beings they would be prosecuted for cruelty.

According to figures released by the Department for Transport earlier this year, some rush-hour services regularly carry double the numbers they should be.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ats-passengers-new-London-terminus-plans.html
 
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EM2

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I would have thought 'stepping down', into what is the space below platform level, would help in making double-deckers more feasible. However, that leaves the question of where to put all the underframe gubbins...
 

thenorthern

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I didn't think it was possible in this country because of the low loading gauge.

Also if I remember correctly the staircases can and do get congested causing people to miss their stops.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Let's not forget double deck trains have been tested before on Southern and Virgin. Both were disasters! Lack of ventilation when power cuts out. No room for standees. No room for luggage (also seen on TGV Duplex). Lack of space for disabled people.

This is replacing comfort with cattle trucks.
If this happens prices should go down.
 

NSEFAN

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Extension of services to 12 car would probably be cheaper than improving the loading gauge! ATO would also help to reduce headways and increase capacity there too.
 

317666

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Extension of services to 12 car would probably be cheaper than improving the loading gauge! ATO would also help to reduce headways and increase capacity there too.

I seem to remember a few years ago on here when there was an argument for longer trains vs double deckers, someone pointed out that with longer trains, will people actually bother to walk down the platform to use the extra coaches, or just cram themselves into the coach nearest the footbridge/ticket barriers/waiting shelter etc as at present!
 

Tetchytyke

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3+2 seating cuts capacity, whilst notionally more people get to sit fewer people overall can get on the train because there is nowhere to stand. A full and standing 350/2 is a horrible experience if you're sitting in the middle seat or in the aisle seat, unless you are a weirdo who likes having a stranger's groin right in front of your face.

There is a reason why LOROL converted their 313s to 2+2 the second they got hold of them.

As for the loading gauge, it is going to be inconvenient and cost a lot of money but at some point it is going to need to be widened.
 

NotATrainspott

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3+2 seating cuts capacity, whilst notionally more people get to sit fewer people overall can get on the train because there is nowhere to stand. A full and standing 350/2 is a horrible experience if you're sitting in the middle seat or in the aisle seat, unless you are a weirdo who likes having a stranger's groin right in front of your face.

There is a reason why LOROL converted their 313s to 2+2 the second they got hold of them.

As for the loading gauge, it is going to be inconvenient and cost a lot of money but at some point it is going to need to be widened.

Widening the loading gauge would cost so much money that it will never happen. It would be better just to build entirely new railways alongside with brand new infrastructure for services that require as few stations as possible - long distance high speed and freight services. Once you've taken both of them off the railway, there's space for more services without needing to pay for any huge reconstruction works across the network.
 

NSEFAN

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317666 said:
I seem to remember a few years ago on here when there was an argument for longer trains vs double deckers, someone pointed out that with longer trains, will people actually bother to walk down the platform to use the extra coaches, or just cram themselves into the coach nearest the footbridge/ticket barriers/waiting shelter etc as at present!
If additional entrances and exits are added to stations, it would help psychologically to get people to spread along the platform. IIRC Wimbledon is having another footbridge and entrance added for this very purpose, as the main entrance is simply rammed!

gordonthemoron said:
ecept we've already got quite a few 12 coach trains
I was thinking of the South Western suburban network, of course many outer suburban workings are indeed already 12 car.
 

bangyuk

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A fundamental issue is that double deckers take much longer to load and unload, reducing capacity at termini, and reducing the benefit of the extra deck even further.
 

Pugwash

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Surely block signalling would be a lot cheaper way to increase capacity ?.

Imo - Network Rail should have been working towards increasing the loading guage for years, i.e. increasing the heights of bridges and OH equipment when it is being replaced at a relatively small additional cost.
 

higthomas

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Surely block signalling would be a lot cheaper way to increase capacity ?.

Imo - Network Rail should have been working towards increasing the loading guage for years, i.e. increasing the heights of bridges and OH equipment when it is being replaced at a relatively small additional cost.

This is what Network rail had to say on double-deck trains in the recent Wessex route study.
Network Rail
The Route Study has investigated further the possibility of
introducing double deck trains to address the CP6 (and longer term)
capacity gap on Main Line long distance services, a concept which
was referenced in the London and South East Route Utilisation
Study1
An assessment of the suitability of double deck rolling stock currently
in operation internationally has not been able to identify a vehicle
suitable for use in Great Britain, and as a result a new double deck
Electric Multiple Unit (EMU) or preferably an adaptation of an
existing design, would be required for operation on the Wessex Route.
The Route Study has developed an outline ‘concept’ double deck
train, comprising three 26 metre vehicle units operating in multiples
of three (or alternatively, a fixed formation 9-car unit) with doors
situated at the vehicle ends at standard floor height. This concept
provides an estimated 50 per cent increase in useable floor area
compared to existing Class 444 and Class 450 stock deployed on the
route.
Double deck services may suit operation over a limited geographical
area during peak hours only, in order to minimise the investment
required to adapt the rail network and depot and stabling facilities.
Running double deck trains in peak hours only, would also limit the
risk of running such trains which would have no available diversionary
route.
...
Network Rail also intends to work with operators to undertake
further work to better understand the likely cost of procuring and
operating suitable double deck rolling stock. At this stage it is noted
that both of the options described above require a relatively small
fleet of bespoke rolling stock, and the development costs alone are
likely to be significant. When amortised over a small fleet, the cost
per unit might result in the concept of double deck trains providing a
poor value for money solution to the South West main line’s
capacity shortfall (regardless of the size of any investment required
in the capability of the network infrastructure). An initial
assessment of the business case will be presented in the final Route
Study publication.
 

Yew

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I would have thought 'stepping down', into what is the space below platform level, would help in making double-deckers more feasible. However, that leaves the question of where to put all the underframe gubbins...

The only way I can see that happening, is either to have LHCS (with less underframe equipment), or Double Decker trailer cars, in an EMU with single deck, all axles powered motor cars.
 

edwin_m

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Nobody has mentioned the fact that UK platform dimensions mean that the lower deck of a DD train to UK gauge would be impossibly cramped, much more so than a Tube train. To resolve this you'd need to rebuild every platform, after which conventional UK trains wouldn't be able to call at them.
 

talltim

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Surely the title of the article should have been
Double-decker trains could hit Britain’s railway infrastructure
 

Tetchytyke

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NotaTrainspott said:
Widening the loading gauge would cost so much money that it will never happen.

Nobody has mentioned the fact that UK platform dimensions mean that the lower deck of a DD train to UK gauge would be impossibly cramped, much more so than a Tube train.

Widening the gauge will cost a fortune, but lowering the track less so. It's not a small job but there have been plenty of examples of the work being carried out to install overhead catenary. When third rail is eventually replaced by overhead caternary they should look at lowering the track under tunnels and bridges.

Platform heights shouldn't really be an issue, the platform height in Sydney is the same as in the UK and they run double-deck trains there.
 

Bletchleyite

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Platform heights shouldn't really be an issue, the platform height in Sydney is the same as in the UK and they run double-deck trains there.

Platform protrusion is an issue, and will result in a UK gauge double decker either only being wide enough for 2+1 seating, or will result in existing stock having an unacceptably large gap.

Neil
 

Taunton

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If the industry is incapable of even providing normal 2/3 car trains where required, and which used to be provided (Sheffield peak hour service), sending out a single car 153 instead, concepts like double deck trains are beyond fantasy.
 
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