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Double-decker trains could hit Britain’s railways to ease overcrowding

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swt_passenger

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Helvellyn

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A few have mentioned the double decker trains used in Sydney. I've never experienced nay problems with delays in boarding/alighting these trains. The mose recent incarnations are the 'A' trains.


A_set_vestibule_fold-up_seats_cityrail.jpg

Vestibule area

A_set_stairs_safety_cityrail.jpg

Stairways and doors

A_set_lower_deck_cityrail1.jpg
Lower deck

A_set_upper_deck1_cityrail_2.jpg
Upper deck
 

Mutant Lemming

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They were mentioned in the original Wessex route study thread, that'll possibly be why:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1980984&postcount=34

This is one of those follow up threads when the mainstream media comes late to the party, many people will feel they've already discussed all this, and won't bother again as it was only about three weeks ago...

Silly me, should know am a typical late coming gate crasher with a bottle of Pomagne and 4 cans of Carling.
I did think there were more of them around and thought I saw them at Waterloo main in the late 70's but it seems I was mistaken as it says they were gone by 1971.
I would imagine they would be as awkward as low bridge double deck buses with sunken gangways and rows of four seats. getting on and off easily would be difficult.
 
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Blamethrower

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A DD train can be created to fit within the UK loading gauge, it just requires some out-of-the-box thinking.

So you take the standard dutch or german design (doors and accessible seat + toilets in the vestibules with massive doors) and then have the bottom deck with the gangway offset to the left or right with blocks of 3 seats in each "compartment" like BR of old.

One would have to duck under the above gangway to sit down but that's what we currently do to get to our seats right now.

The above deck could then be exactly like those in holland or germany. Sure there would be less capacity downstairs, but there would be a huge increase overall.

This absolutely HAS to be considered as an option for capacity improvement in this country, as mentioned earlier, each bridge / station / track renewal should be maintained with this in mind.

However long term thinking in a short term world? forget it :D
 

Bletchleyite

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So you take the standard dutch or german design (doors and accessible seat + toilets in the vestibules with massive doors) and then have the bottom deck with the gangway offset to the left or right with blocks of 3 seats in each "compartment" like BR of old.

One would have to duck under the above gangway to sit down but that's what we currently do to get to our seats right now.

The above deck could then be exactly like those in holland or germany. Sure there would be less capacity downstairs, but there would be a huge increase overall.

There wouldn't, though.

Taking the German end-vestibule design and using that layout, you have two decks in roughly the middle 2/3 of the vehicle between the bogies, plus 8 seats at either end towards the gangway in 4 facing bays of 4. Assuming a 23m vehicle, that's 5 bays upstairs and downstairs (as it is on 23m 170s and the likes), though if you use airline seats you might get an extra 4-6 seats in.

So a typical British double-deck coach of that type, assuming 3 across downstairs and 4 across upstairs (way too narrow for 3+2 as the coach side would curve in) you would get 5*6=30 downstairs, and 5*8=40 upstairs, plus 16 at the ends, or a total of 86 seats.

A 23m single-deck vehicle seated 3+2 throughout (23m vehicles are usually not 3+2 in the UK, but they can be - the Class 323 is) would give you 2+5+2 bays of 10, or 90 seats, or again slightly more if all-airline.

So what's the point of the double-decker again?

Neil
 

Clip

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A few have mentioned the double decker trains used in Sydney. I've never experienced nay problems with delays in boarding/alighting these trains. The mose recent incarnations are the 'A' trains.

Come along now you know you cant have 3+2 seating in the uk - it is scandalous!!
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Why not just use the old double deck design used by British Rail but with some improvements. It had steps behind each seat so people had a seat just above them and feet right behind them. That must have higher capacity.

You could have close to 100% more seats regardless of 2+2/3 seating. This also avoids the need for under floor stuff to be moved. And it might be possible to fit moulded plastic seating like this on existing trains. Given that luggage racks are removed.
 
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jopsuk

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Note that the Network Rail proposal is very speculative AND is based on a programme of gauge enhancements on the specific routes, so the stock would be essentially be captive.
 

AM9

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There wouldn't, though.

.... (way too narrow for 3+2 as the coach side would curve in)....

I think all this double deck talk is chasing very little in route capacity terms, (the only thing that matters), but as an aside, it might be possible to fit bench seats (as on 378s) over the tuck under profile, then have standing room between them. The additional passengers would be near the coach's centre of gravity so the ride would be fairly smooth.
This thread is talking about exceptional measures to avoid more land take, so seats may have to be the first casuality in the quest for capacity.
 

sarahj

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duplicate post

Edit:
Wrong pic shown
 

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sarahj

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One issue of the old SR/BR double decks was slow loading, the other was poor ventilation. they had the classic door at every seat. But folks upstairs had to come down, the squeeze past the folks sitting cramped downstairs.


I have had the classic. I was on a double deck train in Germany. Why can we not have these here.

Answer: Well Sir, a double deck train might leave Brighton, but by the time it got to Hassocks it would be single deck.


Oh well.
 

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Haydn1971

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Double deckers are an unintelligent fudge that wouldn't give the step change that other solutions would deliver for less money.

Longer trains, higher frequencies, more crossrails... All of which will cost money but will deliver the step change.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Double deck trains wont happen in this country on normal lines.



this kid is on the wind up surely!

Double Deck trains will happen. HS2 for example. And as I posted before the Bulleid Double deckers. Since then heights of renewed bridges have been raised.
http://dart75.tripod.com/bddscut.htm
I'm not trying to wind any one up. The train picture I posted showed how a double decker will look, if it's real or not I don't know I found it online.
 

Haydn1971

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Sorry, I'd not want to sit inside something like that....

Double deckers aren't certain for HS2 - the line is specified to allow provision though.
 

swt_passenger

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...And as I posted before the Bulleid Double deckers. Since then heights of renewed bridges have been raised.

No, as others have said the Bullied Double deckers were a miserable failure. The fact they existed at all is pretty much irrelevant to today's needs.

Heights of 'renewed bridges' do not provided sufficient clearance for satisfactory double deck trains either. As I posted earlier, W10/12 gauge is designed for containers - they do not allow for higher passenger trains than present.
 

TBY-Paul

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I'm curious, at what point does "lengthening" a train become impractical. There must be a point at which a train length, and subsequent platform length adjustments become silly and expensive.
 

sprinterguy

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Double deckers are an unintelligent fudge that wouldn't give the step change that other solutions would deliver for less money.

Longer trains, higher frequencies, more crossrails... All of which will cost money but will deliver the step change.
Agreed - On the route that is being considered, I imagine that Crossrail 2 is far more likely to be considered as offering the best solution. As someone has already said, I would imagine that double deck trains have only been considered so that Network Rail can state that they have "considered all possibilities" (which, as others have already backed up, they or their predecessors have already done so on this corridor).
 

jopsuk

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I suspect 12x20m/11x23m, as that is where the UK has maxed out so far.

Neil
11x23? um...


the 11 car Pendolinos are 265m, but they're a special case (the driving cars are over 25m, and the intermediates are 23.9m)

East Coast HSTs are 243m

SWT run 10x23m (Class 444 and I think also 159/158 formations sometimes?)

12-car EMUs are ~245m (Desiro and Electrostar cars are 20.4m)

So it seems ~245m is as long as most parts of the network will handle, with the West Coast being able to handle ~20m more with a couple of trains each way somewhat longer(!).

As far as I understand it HS2 is being built to the UIC High Speed TSI which calls for 400m maximum length- which is, funnily enough, almost exactly the length of the forthcoming Eurostar E320 Class 374 Velaro D 16 carriage sets- slightly longer than the Class 373 TMST Eurostars.

Going ever longer has downsides- longer trains take more time to clear points, for example, which is a major constraint on terminals.
 

NotATrainspott

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11x23? um...


the 11 car Pendolinos are 265m, but they're a special case (the driving cars are over 25m, and the intermediates are 23.9m)

East Coast HSTs are 243m

SWT run 10x23m (Class 444 and I think also 159/158 formations sometimes?)

12-car EMUs are ~245m (Desiro and Electrostar cars are 20.4m)

So it seems ~245m is as long as most parts of the network will handle, with the West Coast being able to handle ~20m more with a couple of trains each way somewhat longer(!).

As far as I understand it HS2 is being built to the UIC High Speed TSI which calls for 400m maximum length- which is, funnily enough, almost exactly the length of the forthcoming Eurostar E320 Class 374 Velaro D 16 carriage sets- slightly longer than the Class 373 TMST Eurostars.

Going ever longer has downsides- longer trains take more time to clear points, for example, which is a major constraint on terminals.

11x23m/12x20m is the maximum for Thameslink and Crossrail 1 so I imagine the same will be true of all other London commuter lines.

265-280m seems to be the new standard platform length for non-commuter lines that will be served by long distance high speed trains. The new Edinburgh Gateway airport/tram interchange station will have platforms this length to allow IEPs to call, and I believe the two platforms at Tweedbank are this length to allow top-and-tailed charter trains. The Javelin platforms along HS1 are 276m long and I believe the new MML Fast platforms at St Pancras are around the same. The plans for a rebuilt Euston also have the WCML Slow lines at 280m long, as are all the GWML/Crossrail platforms at Old Oak Common, so it seems to be reasonably consistent around the idea of a 10x26m IEP or equivalent. However, the new WCML Fast platforms are to be 320m long at Euston to allow 12x26m IEP services, presumably calling only at the stations currently capable of taking the Caledonian Sleeper (which will have its own 400m classic platforms at Euston as well, to complicate matters further).
 

RichmondCommu

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I don't know when. But here's a picture of a Double Deck Virgin train.

I think this should be 'post of the year'. Thanks for making me laugh :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Double Deck trains will happen. HS2 for example. And as I posted before the Bulleid Double deckers. Since then heights of renewed bridges have been raised.
http://dart75.tripod.com/bddscut.htm
I'm not trying to wind any one up. The train picture I posted showed how a double decker will look, if it's real or not I don't know I found it online.

Let's not forget double deck trains have been tested before on Southern and Virgin. Both were disasters! Lack of ventilation when power cuts out. No room for standees. No room for luggage (also seen on TGV Duplex). Lack of space for disabled people.

This is replacing comfort with cattle trucks.
If this happens prices should go down.

Earlier on in this thread you had stated that Virgin Trains had operated Double Deck trains which had not proved to be a success.
 
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DarloRich

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Double Deck trains will happen. HS2 for example. And as I posted before the Bulleid Double deckers. Since then heights of renewed bridges have been raised.
http://dart75.tripod.com/bddscut.htm
I'm not trying to wind any one up. The train picture I posted showed how a double decker will look, if it's real or not I don't know I found it online.

As I said double deck trains won’t operate in normal lines in the UK. I DOUBT they will operate on HS2 either.

If you think a double deck train has been tested on the WCML you are on the wind up. Your earleir post, as RichmondCommu points out, stated Virgin had tested double deck trains. This clearly is false.


Not sure what you are on about with the bullied double deckers, they seem to have been terrible. I also don’t know what you are on about regarding renewed bridge heights etc. They aren’t gauged for double deck trains. Common sense should prove that.

As Haydn says the best option is to use the money required to regauge the entire SE network in providing extra capacity I the current envelope via new technologies.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Some places can handle 348.48m long trains (3xclass 221). What sort of % extra power would an 11 car double decker pull (if one existed in the UK, compared with a 11 car single decker?
 
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