Downham Market to Welwyn Garden Citry Off Peak confusion

[tankmc]

Hi all hoping someone can help.

I am looking at travelling from Downham Market to Welwyn Garden city tomorrow. My understanding that off-peak tickets are available on trains that arrive into London after 10am?

From this understanding I should be able to get the 8:41 from DOW as both that train and my connecting train arrive into London after 10am.

Yet on the Trainline, it is giving me the first off-peak option as 09:49.

Could someone clear this up for me. Thanks

 

[Polarbear]

According to BR Fares, the Off Peak Return priced £29.70 is not valid for departure until after 09:30. The Off Peak day return priced at £28.30 is valid after 08:44 on weekdays. The information on BR fares does not make reference to any arrival times in London.

Someone else may be able to shed some more light on this, but unless there's an easement, you won't be able to use the earlier train with an Off Peak return.

 

[gazthomas]

National Rail is showing an anytime return as £29.80 and the off speak return as £28.30 with the first departure as 9.11

Am I missing something?

 

[tankmc]

National Rail is showing an anytime return as £29.80 and the off speak return as £28.30 with the first departure as 9.11

Am I missing something?

What has confused me is the Great Northern website which says

Off-Peak tickets to London stations can’t be used on trains scheduled to arrive at King’s Cross or Moorgate before 10.00.

So i was thinking that the train arriving after 10 is off peak.

 

[gazthomas]

What has confused me is the Great Northern website which says

Off-Peak tickets to London stations can’t be used on trains scheduled to arrive at King’s Cross or Moorgate before 10.00.

So i was thinking that the train arriving after 10 is off peak.

If the website will allow you to buy the ticket and you take a copy of the itinerary with you I wouldn't worry.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm afraid there is no standard definition of off peak they vary from operator to operator and by station to destination. The OP has assumed there's some logic to it like avoiding arriving into a major metrolpoitan area before 0930. However in the quest for extra £ many operators have moved the goalpost from something that try's to manage peak demand to a much larger timeframe. The worst offender is VTWC.

 

[tankmc]

If the website will allow you to buy the ticket and you take a copy of the itinerary with you I wouldn't worry.

It was the fact I couldn't that I was confused about. Also meeting someone in Cambridge on the way who has got the same train as off peak. Very odd.

 

[gazthomas]

It was the fact I couldn't that I was confused about. Also meeting someone in Cambridge on the way who has got the same train as off peak. Very odd.

I could definitely do on the Thameslink website. As you say, very odd

 

[47513 Severn]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/5M
States the £29.70 off peak return is not valid from Downham Market before 0841 (the after 0930 restriction mentioned in an earlier post is for return travel rather than outward)

If you read further into the restriction code on brfares.com it also contains the following under "Unpublished restrictions":
Not valid to depart DOWNHAM MARKET 0430–0940 on any TOC
Which must be what the booking engine is applying.

The question is why doesn't it match the published restriction?

As you can't be expected to know the unpublished restrictions (it's kind of in the name!) you could just book the ticket and use it on any train from 0841 onwards as National Rail is supposed to be the definitive source of this information.

Don't use the trainline though!

 

[gazthomas]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/5M
States the £29.70 off peak return is not valid from Downham Market before 0841 (the after 0930 restriction mentioned in an earlier post is for return travel rather than outward)

If you read further into the restriction code on brfares.com it also contains the following under "Unpublished restrictions":
Not valid to depart DOWNHAM MARKET 0430–0940 on any TOC
Which must be what the booking engine is applying.

The question is why doesn't it match the published restriction?

As you can't be expected to know the unpublished restrictions (it's kind of in the name!) you could just book the ticket and use it on any train from 0841 onwards as National Rail is supposed to be the definitive source of this information.

Don't use the trainline though!

I agree with you! But if you buy the Anytime ticket at just over £1 more what's the problem?

 

[47513 Severn]

I agree with you! But if you buy the Anytime ticket at just over £1 more what's the problem?

That is for the anytime DAY return though, the fare in question is the 'saver' off peak return which allows return up to a month later. To do that on anytime tickets would involve singles, at least one of which will be the £26.10 anytime as that is the only one available on weekdays, plus the same again (or £19.80 if travelling on a weekend) to get back.

Tankmc - will you actually be returning on a later date?

 

[tankmc]

I agree with you! But if you buy the Anytime ticket at just over £1 more what's the problem?

It was the off peak return i was hoping i could get, but i guess not. Its only £19.60 off peak return.

 

[gazthomas]

It was the off peak return i was hoping i could get, but i guess not. Its only £19.60 off peak return.

Ah - I understand now. When I looked it was £28+

 

[47513 Severn]

£19.60 is the railcard discounted off peak return. You will be able to us this on the 0841 train as per the restriction http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/5M regardless of what the trainline says.

It will also be cheaper to buy on the day at the ticket office rather than use the trainline (again regardless of what they might claim!)

I'm assuming your railcard is valid at that time of course.

 

[Hadders]

The outward portion of a Downham Market - Welwyn Garden City Off Peak Return is indisputably valid after 0841. Booking sites are incorrectly interpreting the timing restrictions.

Now it has been highlighted here I suspect it will be fixed.....

As others have said don't use trainline to book tickets as they're never cheaper as they add booking and credit card fees which train company websites don't do. This ticket is available on the day of travel from the station at exactly the same price.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all hoping someone can help.

I am looking at travelling from Downham Market to Welwyn Garden city tomorrow. My understanding that off-peak tickets are available on trains that arrive into London after 10am?

From this understanding I should be able to get the 8:41 from DOW as both that train and my connecting train arrive into London after 10am.

Yet on the Trainline, it is giving me the first off-peak option as 09:49.

Could someone clear this up for me. Thanks

Your understanding isn't correct for this particular flow.

The Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is not valid "on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45" and the Off Peak Return (SVR) is similarly restricted from 0430 in the morning, with no evening peak restrictionl, except it is valid on the 08:41.

(Incidentally, a passenger holding an Off Peak Day Return who travels on the 0841 will be told that they are travelling at a time that is not considered to be Off Peak for that ticket type, and excessed up to the Off Peak Return for £1.40, as 0841 is considered to be off peak for that ticket type and origin/destination combination. This is considered by the rail industry to be "simple ticketing")

The electronic data appears to be correct for the CDR, but the SVR is wrongly encoded as not valid from Downham Market between 0430-0940.

This is a data error and all booking engines will be affected. It isn't the fault of the booking engines themselves, but the relevant TOC(s) who provide the data.

Fares data is riddled with errors like this, many of which result in booking engines unwittingly overcharging people. There have been numerous instances reported on this forum recently:

Thanks for the examples Starmill. I hadn't realised there were such differences between electronic data (you are right, that's what journey planners use) and NRE data. I will have to bring this stuff up with RDG as it really shouldn't be the case...

A good example: Pangbourne to Dorking Deepdene & "off peak" tickets ?

This sort of thing is surprisingly widespread. It's just the tip of the iceberg and puts online booking sites at a severe disadvantage (compared to a ticket office) and confuses their customers..

The contractual restriction is shown here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/5M

 

[tankmc]

Your understanding isn't correct for this particular flow.

The Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is not valid "on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:45" and the Off Peak Return (SVR) is similarly restricted from 0430 in the morning, with no evening peak restrictionl, except it is valid on the 08:41.

(Incidentally, a passenger holding an Off Peak Day Return who travels on the 0841 will be told that they are travelling at a time that is not considered to be Off Peak for that ticket type, and excessed up to the Off Peak Return for £1.40, as 0841 is considered to be off peak for that ticket type and origin/destination combination. This is considered by the rail industry to be "simple ticketing")

The electronic data appears to be correct for the CDR, but the SVR is wrongly encoded as not valid from Downham Market between 0430-0940.

This is a data error and all booking engines will be affected. It isn't the fault of the booking engines themselves, but the relevant TOC(s) who provide the data.

Fares data is riddled with errors like this, many of which result in booking engines unwittingly overcharging people. There have been numerous instances reported on this forum recently:


The contractual restriction is shown here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/5M

Fantastic thanks! I'm going go get the 8:41 so will head to ticket office and grab an off peak return