Dr Who - 2017 series

[Bayum]

The zombie monks are Cybermen. Calling it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's rather a cool theory. And I can see the logic behind it. Cybermen would be the perfect entities to run computer simulations.

However, if I recall historical Dr Who correctly, it would create a big continuity problem:

(I can't seem to get spoiler tags to work. So - select the following text to read it. Faint colour used in case anyone hasn't watched the episode yet. ).

Cybermen in our Universe had nowhere near the level of technology that you'd require to do some of the stuff the monks were doing. And besides, since when have cybermen ever cared about love and consent? And why would cybermen feel a need to hide their identity? That's never concerned them before.

On the other hand, turning all humans into cybermen would be a plausible evil interpretation of protecting humanity 'for ever'

 

[Bayum]

That's rather a cool theory. And I can see the logic behind it. Cybermen would be the perfect entities to run computer simulations.

However, if I recall historical Dr Who correctly, it would create a big continuity problem:

(I can't seem to get spoiler tags to work. So - select the following text to read it. Faint colour used in case anyone hasn't watched the episode yet. ).

Cybermen in our Universe had nowhere near the level of technology that you'd require to do some of the stuff the monks were doing. And besides, since when have cybermen ever cared about love and consent? And why would cybermen feel a need to hide their identity? That's never concerned them before.

On the other hand, turning all humans into cybermen would be a plausible evil interpretation of protecting humanity 'for ever'

The Cybermen hid themselves along with Missy in the 'dark water' which only showed the organic parts. The 'monks' we're seeing could be a result of humanities degradation throughout the years, missing the metal exoskeleton. You say the cybermen don't have the technology, but they've had enough technology to cross between parallel worlds and find 'the void' and the sphere to do that, they've managed to get through time and space somehow. The way they look and move their mouth open and closed to speak, rather than open and close per sound, reminds me very much of the Mondasian cybermen. Another part of me wants to think that 'this earth' is actually Mondas in the present day.

 

[cf111]

I think there's definitely something going on connecting the Monks to the Cybermen. I hope it is something to do with Mondas as I've always found that an interesting concept.

 

[Greenback]

As I watched last night's episode (on Iplayer after enjoying the Pro12 rugby union final live) I couldn't help feeling there was a link to the Cybermen somewhere, but I just couldn't think where!

On the face of it, the appearanc eof the monks being decaying organic beings could point to them being on the point of replacing themselves with plastic and steel, but it doesn't really tie in with some of the other things about them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You would also run into problems that - assuming the episode is set in the current year, several classic Dr Who stories tell us that Cybermen - at least the original ones from Mondas, who are the ones rumoured to be appearing in this season - have already been in existence as fully-fledged steel creatures for at least about 50 years (and have already attempted to invade Earth a couple of times).

I think you are correct that there are signs in the episode of a link possibly being there. But I'll be disappointed if continuity is broken by having the monks turn out to be original cybermen, but not yet fully created (Though of course if care is taken by the writers, there are going to be lots of ways that any discrepancy could be explained).

 

[Bayum]

You would also run into problems that - assuming the episode is set in the current year, several classic Dr Who stories tell us that Cybermen - at least the original ones from Mondas, who are the ones rumoured to be appearing in this season - have already been in existence as fully-fledged steel creatures for at least about 50 years (and have already attempted to invade Earth a couple of times).

I think you are correct that there are signs in the episode of a link possibly being there. But I'll be disappointed if continuity is broken by having the monks turn out to be original cybermen, but not yet fully created (Though of course if care is taken by the writers, there are going to be lots of ways that any discrepancy could be explained).

But if the link to Mondas was there, the human population could find themselves at odds and without food from the bacteria being released should they remind on the Monks' offer to keep the race safe. The way the monks turned and then wandered into the pyramid in synch. was a little weird and Cybermen-esque.

 

[Greenback]

The more I think about, the more I want the monks to be the forerunners of the Cybermen. Yet I'm also perturbed byt he continuity porblems and some of the dialogue in the last two episodes. I think that there may be a few twists and turns yet.

 

[Bayum]

I've watched the episode again a few times... And I've thought of some other reasons for my considering the Zombie Monks to be Cybermen.

When asked how long the monks would protect the human race and earth for, they answered 'forever'. Forever as in the current population that would be upgraded? Or forever as in future generations?

My other thinking was around the release of the enzyme. Why that particular enzyme experiment? I get that the food supply would have been destroyed, but so would the population as we saw with the scientists... Why didn't the monks choose another point in history whereby the human race and planet was destroyed? There have been many other points where the humans could destroy themselves... I'm yet to think of another alien race who 'needs' large numbers of a population to be living.

After the monks hijacked the plane and submarine, their movements were extremely coordinated. So coordinated I notxed it straight away.

 

[Bayum]

Sooooooo maybs I was wrong about the zombies. What a letdown that episode was...


HOWEVER. Trailer alert. Also spoiler alerts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jolq_D0R8Yk&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

The Cybermen look super creepy. As do the 'patients'. (Partially converted cybermen, anyone?). Why is the voice talking about evolution? Who is evolving? Are the Timelords considering cyber conversion? Are the masterseseseses plotting with the Cybs again? I'm genuinely so excited for these two episodes.

 

[Bayum]

I've just this second realised what Bill is asking, and what the voice is replying. Sounds sinister, but hopefully one that may raise the whole ethical issue of: Cyber conversion - right or wrong?

 

[Jonny]

The more I think about, the more I want the monks to be the forerunners of the Cybermen. Yet I'm also perturbed byt he continuity porblems and some of the dialogue in the last two episodes. I think that there may be a few twists and turns yet.

The biggest one being no conversions over six months???

 

[Jonny]

Oh, and the "We must evolve to survive" sounds nothing like the Mondasian Cyberman voice in this clip from the Official Doctor Who Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBHGbBJwyh0. Bear in mind that Nicholas Briggs, the usual voice-over artist for such things, is quite capable of reproducing the Tenth Planet variant directly (mostly in licensed spinoff media).

[youtube]FBHGbBJwyh0[/youtube]

 

[Bayum]

Oh, and the "We must evolve to survive" sounds nothing like the Mondasian Cyberman voice in this clip from the Official Doctor Who Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBHGbBJwyh0. Bear in mind that Nicholas Briggs, the usual voice-over artist for such things, is quite capable of reproducing the Tenth Planet variant directly (mostly in licensed spinoff media).

[youtube]FBHGbBJwyh0[/youtube]

I think you'll find I never said it was the cyberman's voice. I reckon it's John Simms, personally. I asked why the voice was discussing the need to evolve and the possibilities thereafter. Not that it was a Cybermen speaking.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On the subject of this season, I thought last Saturday's episode - the Romans one - was one of the best I've seen in a long time. Interesting (and relatively believable) self-contained plot, great humour naturally woven into the story, some nice scenery. And - even better - I hadn't been able to think of any obvious plot-spoiling nits by the end of the episode

 

[Bayum]

On the subject of this season, I thought last Saturday's episode - the Romans one - was one of the best I've seen in a long time. Interesting (and relatively believable) self-contained plot, great humour naturally woven into the story, some nice scenery. And - even better - I hadn't been able to think of any obvious plot-spoiling nits by the end of the episode

I don't think think I've enjoyed any of this season if I'm honest. The first two of 'The Monks' trilogy were great, the final part was so ruddy bland and boring... Monks with all that power? Running away? What!?

 

[Jonny]

Anyway, the official version of the trailer has appeared on the BBC Youtube channel with an elongated version of the "we must evolve to survive" quote and an additional scene...

[youtube]97Md_SwGdMc[/youtube]

 

[Greenback]

Both Mrs Greenback and myself have enjoyed the series overall, though we thought last week's was too similar to the Ice Warriors episode.

It's a shame that Peter Capaldi is leaving at this point,but wiht a new script editor and a new lead, it seems like there could be a total refresh coming.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Both Mrs Greenback and myself have enjoyed the series overall, though we thought last week's was too similar to the Ice Warriors episode.

Interesting. I have to admit I'm struggling to see any similarity between those episodes. Care to elaborate? (I'm asking out of curiosity, not in order to argue or be awkward)

 

[Greenback]

The themes were very similar - foes having to work together in the end. Both episodes featured historical warriors, in the first one it was the Birtish Army of the Victorian era, in the second the Picts and the Romans.

The episodes would have worked better if they hadn't followed on from each other.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The themes were very similar - foes having to work together in the end. Both episodes featured historical warriors, in the first one it was the Birtish Army of the Victorian era, in the second the Picts and the Romans.

The episodes would have worked better if they hadn't followed on from each other.

Ah yes, looking at it that way I can see how you'd get similar themes. Thx!

Interesting how different people reason differently. I didn't see the episodes as at all similar because I primarily thought about the task(kill ravenous monster vs convince assorted military types that they aren't enemies after all), the main scenery (the Scottish highlands versus underground caves on Mars), and the general progression of the story. You're evidently more attuned to underlying nuances than I am

 

[Bayum]

I don't know now what troubles me most about tonight's episode...

The fact that Bill was more than happy to turn up/down the infusion rate of the drug being given to the partially converted Cyberpatients, or the creepy, yet amazing, new-age singsong voice they have.

I'm really hoping we get to hear more of the Mondas Cubs next week, though I wonder if it's full conversion for Bill, or it could be reversed...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I know what troubles me the most...

1. How do the elevators work when time apparently goes many thousands of times slower at the top? (Come to that how does the ship keep its structural integrity?)
2. Time flowing thousands of times slower at the top? Just how close to the event horizon is the top of the ship? I would hazard a strong guess that for any normal sized black hole, time flowing that much slower would also imply you'd be so close that your body would immediately get stretched out like on a rack, and you wouldn't live very long! Besides, what kind of incompetent pilot would've taken the ship that close in the first place?
3. I'm sure they said the ship was hundreds of km long/wide, yet apparently it only has a thousand floors. Just how high are the ceilings?
4. What kind of non-intuitive user interfaces numbers the floor at the top zero and the floor at the bottom floor 1000-ish? No wonder the Mondasians couldn't survive if that's their level of competence in technology design

 

[Bayum]

I know what troubles me the most...

1. How do the elevators work when time apparently goes many thousands of times slower at the top? (Come to that how does the ship keep its structural integrity?)
2. Time flowing thousands of times slower at the top? Just how close to the event horizon is the top of the ship? I would hazard a strong guess that for any normal sized black hole, time flowing that much slower would also imply you'd be so close that your body would immediately get stretched out like on a rack, and you wouldn't live very long! Besides, what kind of incompetent pilot would've taken the ship that close in the first place?
3. I'm sure they said the ship was hundreds of km long/wide, yet apparently it only has a thousand floors. Just how high are the ceilings?
4. What kind of non-intuitive user interfaces numbers the floor at the top zero and the floor at the bottom floor 1000-ish? No wonder the Mondasians couldn't survive if that's their level of competence in technology design

1) Why would that mean that a lift wouldn't work? If the lift is activated and pulled/pushed up and down from the area farthest from the black hole, then you could assume it works as normal, thus explaining how the partially converted patients were able to get to the trio in a minute or so.

2) I guess if it's a space faring ship you'd be sorted against black holes? Saying that, the black hole could have stretched the ship slowly as it pulled away?

3) Did you see the views Bill saw before the 'patients' started getting frantic? There were factories churning out smoke with room to spare. Very high ceilings.

4) Does that necessarily mean that the area was not at the top when they set off from Mondas?

 

[Greenback]

Interesting how different people reason differently. I didn't see the episodes as at all similar because I primarily thought about the task(kill ravenous monster vs convince assorted military types that they aren't enemies after all), the main scenery (the Scottish highlands versus underground caves on Mars), and the general progression of the story. You're evidently more attuned to underlying nuances than I am

I think it might have something to do with my film and theatre degree, which was very much based in critical analysis!

The thing is, after the previous week when the cowardly Brisih officer made a sacrifice which mean that both sides coulkd work together, I sort of expected the same thing to happen with the Picts and Romans right from the off.

As for the timey wimey stuff last night, I;m mor ethan willing to indulge in a suspension of disbelief for the sake of a good story. And I thought it was a very good story which was creepy and emotional for good measure. I recognised John Simm straight away , though, so there was no gasp out loud moment for me like there was when it was revealed that Derek Jacobi was The Master.

 

[Rhydgaled]

what kind of incompetent pilot would've taken the ship that close in the first place?

You remind me of a moment in Red Dwarf (one of the first 2 series I think): "The thing about space is it's black, and the thing about black holes is they're black" or something like that. There was something about the scanner scope being black too I seem to recall.

 

[Jonny]

I think it might have something to do with my film and theatre degree, which was very much based in critical analysis!

The thing is, after the previous week when the cowardly Brisih officer made a sacrifice which mean that both sides coulkd work together, I sort of expected the same thing to happen with the Picts and Romans right from the off.

As for the timey wimey stuff last night, I;m mor ethan willing to indulge in a suspension of disbelief for the sake of a good story. And I thought it was a very good story which was creepy and emotional for good measure. I recognised John Simm straight away , though, so there was no gasp out loud moment for me like there was when it was revealed that Derek Jacobi was The Master.

It took a little while for me to work out that Mr Razor was probably John Simm's Master in disguise... and I could see where Bill was heading from a fairly early stage. Although the Surgeon had very little screen time, he was creepy and perhaps the most important character.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Before I'd watched the episode knowing that the character of Bill was leaving the series and that the Mondasian Cybermen would appear I had a gut feeling that Bill would get converted.

It'll be interesting to see if John Simm's Master forces Missy to regenerate

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Missy is growing on me. I love her acerbic tone and frequent put-downs. And if she stayed in the series as a morally somewhat ambiguous semi-regular character who sometimes helps and sometimes harms things, I could imagine it would add a great new dimension to the stories. So I do hope nothing happens to destroy her character.

I guess we know that John Simm will get out alive, because otherwise there's no way Missy will ever exist. Presumably something will happen at the end of the episode to destroy Simm's memory of the events of it though.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I guess we know that John Simm will get out alive, because otherwise there's no way Missy will ever exist. Presumably something will happen at the end of the episode to destroy Simm's memory of the events of it though.

Could it be like in "The Day Of The Doctor" where the "War Doctor" didn't remember the events once the time streams had sorted themselves out?