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Drax and Peel Ports criticise rail infrastructure in North

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furnessvale

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I think you may find that the best hope of the BIG ships are those that are applying the Transatlantic trade rather those coming from the East as their services are almost set in stone serving Rotherdam and Antwerp with Hamburg, Felixstowe and Southampton in the frame too. Peel Holdings are aware of that but if they can get some additional "feeder" services (from Rotherdam as an example) to serve Liverpool instead of the southern ports especially if the containers / goods are meant for the north of England / UK then it could make more economical sense. We will wait and see.

Indeed, the need to upgrade Liverpool was the decision by ACL to order larger ships. They would not fit the old Liverpool facilities and a move to Southampton was on the cards. Peel seem to have gone over the top to retain ACL, and are desperately trying to sell the idea that they can attract existing southern port liners to justify the cost.

If feeders from Rotterdam were viable they could have been operated years ago using the old facilities.

As you say, we will wait and see.
 
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Wavertreelad

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I'm sure their short sea ambitions are well founded.

Where I have difficulty is their ambition to win deep sea calls from the big southern ports. The idea that a modern 20,000teu container vessel would call at Liverpool instead of (say) Felistowe, before sailing to Rotterdam is pie in the sky.

It is one thing getting northern based companies to agree that IF services called at Liverpool they would use them. It is quite another to get shipping lines to commit to 500+ extra miles, and another 1+ day to serve an existing market that is already well served by southern ports and rail north.

I would not be so sure. The modern 14000 teu plus is very fuel efficient so the extra cost of 500 miles falls into insignificance when compared to the potential saving of moving a few thousand containers around our crowded islands. The extra day or two sailing is not a problem either, the days of a 56 round trip from North Europe to the Far East main ports is also gone, today one or more individual loops, some including a transpacific leg will be operated by a larger number of ship with east bound sailings sometimes slow steaming or even running via the Cape instead of Suez. On top of that the lines have to consider port congestion, which is already a growing problem in Felxistowe. Those 20000+ teu vessels that will increasingly dominate the Europe Far East trade as they are being delivered at the rate of one every two to three weeks over the next twelve months have to maintain a very strict schedule to catch their berthing window. Any delay such as bad weather or blockages in the Suez Canal for example can result in a vessel missing a port call and having to have it feedered back to Felixstowe at the lines expense with all the knock on effects this has on the supply chain. Peel are now committed to building phase 2 of Liverpool2 which will allow two vessels of this size to berth simultaneously and the only way they would make that decision is if they had genuine interest from the shipping lines to call at the terminal. I doubt we are going to see these ULCC's berthing on a regular basis for at least twelve months, but we may see the vessel loading empties or doing trials.

Indeed, the need to upgrade Liverpool was the decision by ACL to order larger ships. They would not fit the old Liverpool facilities and a move to Southampton was on the cards. Peel seem to have gone over the top to retain ACL, and are desperately trying to sell the idea that they can attract existing southern port liners to justify the cost.

If feeders from Rotterdam were viable they could have been operated years ago using the old facilities.

As you say, we will wait and see.

You are correct to state that ACL considered Southampton as well as Portbury, but when they did their sums they found the extra cost of the fuel and sailing added about about 3% of the cost of the Liverpool call, but they UK distributions costs demonstrated a 30% saving compared to other UK ports. It should also be considered that ACL's new G4 ro/ro vessels, despite their appearance are still panamax sized and only have a container capacity of about 3800 teu. Furthermore, because of the large difference in the height of the Mersey tides, there was no way these vessels could operate from a river berth using their ro/ro ramps. It true Peel removed the knuckle between the Gladstone passage and Seaforth Dock to allow the ACL G4's more space to manoeuvre, but it also made more accessible and efficient for other container ships that will continue to serve the enclosed Seaforth Dock.

The feeder operations to Rotterdam and Antwerp etc are a means to an end. At the moment the vast majority of traffic does in fact move via Felixstowe, Southampton and London Gateway because of the faster transit times gained by direct calls. The feeder operation favours the lower value and in particular bulk cargoes that often move in large volumes, such as agricultural products, paper and metals, but increasingly the supermarket and discount chains are also being to take advantage as their distribution centres usually require the cargo presented to them on standard pallets on curtain side transport. This means the containers have to be devanned and the contents palletised and labelled etc, which is increasingly be done in the port or surrounding area.
 

HSTEd

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Has noone built a frame container with removable side panels to allow unloading at a dock built for curtain-siders?
 

Olaf

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Indeed the increasing movement of bulk products is one of the reasons for growth in the container industry. In the US in particular import containers are moved huge distances inland to the cities but then the shipping lines have to find return export cargo. Like in UK and Europe the decline in manufacturing means they have had to find other cargoes to load in these containers. In the last twenty years or so recycling products such as paper, plastic and metal started to fill the void, and still form the largest volumes of cargo from Europe to the Far East. The same happened in the US, were the farmers have taken advantage of the empties as it often cheaper to ship the container loaded with grain etc to the Far East than return the container to the port. Sounds bizarre, but basically the shipping lines subsidises the export move to get the container back to China so it can be loaded with higher paying freight.



Almost certainly they have clients to support this. On the same day as the rail announcement Peel also issued these two press releases which confirm their ambitions.

https://www.peelports.com/blogs/2017/warren-marshall-lism-17

https://www.peelports.com/blogs/gh-lisw-17-blog

OK thanks. Neither of those posts mention specific new clients or flows, but appear to imply they are being launched to improve existing flows.
 

Wavertreelad

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Has noone built a frame container with removable side panels to allow unloading at a dock built for curtain-siders?

The problem with that idea sort of design would be the security that the steel box would be lost and it could raise numerous safety issues. For example would the container be allowed on the UK rail network? A side panel coming adrift on a moving train because it was not secured correctly by the shipper could be lethal. The other issue is that the consumer goods being shipped from Asia are mainly packed in outer cartons only and then packed loose into the container so they fill the entire width and length of the container to avoid the use of dunnage and limit movement of the contents. As a result the contents have to be largely removed carton by carton which can then be palletised to the specific standards required by the supermarket chain.


OK thanks. Neither of those posts mention specific new clients or flows, but appear to imply they are being launched to improve existing flows.

I suspect they are probably more to do with future new flows as a result of the port capturing new services which may not be that far away. Commercial sensitivity prevents the names being revealed at this stage.
 

furnessvale

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I would not be so sure. The modern 14000 teu plus is very fuel efficient so the extra cost of 500 miles falls into insignificance when compared to the potential saving of moving a few thousand containers around our crowded islands. The extra day or two sailing is not a problem either, the days of a 56 round trip from North Europe to the Far East main ports is also gone, today one or more individual loops, some including a transpacific leg will be operated by a larger number of ship with east bound sailings sometimes slow steaming or even running via the Cape instead of Suez. On top of that the lines have to consider port congestion, which is already a growing problem in Felxistowe. Those 20000+ teu vessels that will increasingly dominate the Europe Far East trade as they are being delivered at the rate of one every two to three weeks over the next twelve months have to maintain a very strict schedule to catch their berthing window. Any delay such as bad weather or blockages in the Suez Canal for example can result in a vessel missing a port call and having to have it feedered back to Felixstowe at the lines expense with all the knock on effects this has on the supply chain. Peel are now committed to building phase 2 of Liverpool2 which will allow two vessels of this size to berth simultaneously and the only way they would make that decision is if they had genuine interest from the shipping lines to call at the terminal. I doubt we are going to see these ULCC's berthing on a regular basis for at least twelve months, but we may see the vessel loading empties or doing trials.

We will have to see. I personally cannot see it happening. You have to remember that a modern ULCC costs about gbp20,000 per day and Liverpool adds 2 days to the circuit. Even worse EVERY container on that ship, not just the UK ones, goes on a 2 day jaunt up the Irish sea to no benefit. Add on the fact that nearly half of the UK containers on that ship will now be taken south by road, incurring extra cost. Add on the fact that southern ports will not stand idly by and watch this happen.

Yes there will be trials and it will be a very useful emergency diversion port. Of course the shipping lines will support the idea but I doubt there are any signed contracts about.
 

8A Rail

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We will have to see. I personally cannot see it happening. You have to remember that a modern ULCC costs about gbp20,000 per day and Liverpool adds 2 days to the circuit. Even worse EVERY container on that ship, not just the UK ones, goes on a 2 day jaunt up the Irish sea to no benefit. Add on the fact that nearly half of the UK containers on that ship will now be taken south by road, incurring extra cost. Add on the fact that southern ports will not stand idly by and watch this happen.

Yes there will be trials and it will be a very useful emergency diversion port. Of course the shipping lines will support the idea but I doubt there are any signed contracts about.

That is the point exactly, the reason Peel Holdings (Liverpool Docks) is being marketed is because it is more central within the UK. So we not advocating containers arriving at the port to go back down south towards London, as that dont make sense but certainly worth considering for the (North) Midlands and north of there. Likewise, again I believe "new" traffic will come about from the west not east, as I've stated before, those "Eastern" contracts are more or less set in stone at this moment in time.

The way I look at Liverpool Docks is simply this, anything over and above our existing shipping traffic because of "L2" regardless of size of ship, then is "new" traffic and a positive step forward. As we know Acorns grow into trees but they dont grow overnight, it takes time and currently it is very early days.

Personally, I very much doubt that either Felixstowe or Southampton are worried about "L2" to be honest, they are in a good place and know it.
 

furnessvale

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That is the point exactly, the reason Peel Holdings (Liverpool Docks) is being marketed is because it is more central within the UK. So we not advocating containers arriving at the port to go back down south towards London, as that dont make sense but certainly worth considering for the (North) Midlands and north of there. Likewise, again I believe "new" traffic will come about from the west not east, as I've stated before, those "Eastern" contracts are more or less set in stone at this moment in time.

That is the problem. The round the world liners make one call at best in the UK. ALL UK containers will be discharged at that one call, be it a southern port or Liverpool.

To suggest Liverpool as a second call only further weakens Liverpool's case.
 
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8A Rail

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That is the problem. The round the world liners make one call at best in the UK. ALL UK containers will be discharged at that one call, be it a southern port or Liverpool.
To suggest Liverpool as a second call only further weakens Liverpool's case.

I have never suggested to make Liverpool a second call, it is you who is thinking that. As we both agree, majority of Containers to/from UK to/from the East (Asia) will call once once in the UK whether Felixstowe or Southampton, and they are definitely not going to sail to Liverpool first or afterwards.

Again I emphasis that any of the ships that are on the transatlantic routes (America's) that Peel Holdings are seeking. As by coming to Liverpool rather than Southampton or sailing around to Felixstowe would ultimately save one/two days sailing and ultimately costs too especially if the goods on board are destined for the Midlands and the North including Scotland which many are anyway.
 

RichmondCommu

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Could do I suppose but would it mean messing about with locomotives to get back on the WCML north of Carlisle? Certainly space for them though, the line is almost completely devoid of freight now with the almost complete demise of coal.

Are we not expecting some spare capacity on the S & C to be potentially taken by coal traveling from the Cumbrian coast for export?
 

Wavertreelad

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We will have to see. I personally cannot see it happening. You have to remember that a modern ULCC costs about gbp20,000 per day and Liverpool adds 2 days to the circuit. Even worse EVERY container on that ship, not just the UK ones, goes on a 2 day jaunt up the Irish sea to no benefit. Add on the fact that nearly half of the UK containers on that ship will now be taken south by road, incurring extra cost. Add on the fact that southern ports will not stand idly by and watch this happen.

Yes there will be trials and it will be a very useful emergency diversion port. Of course the shipping lines will support the idea but I doubt there are any signed contracts about.

The two day "jaunt" is not necessarily a problem, because the ship is potentially earning additional revenue by sailing to Liverpool to collect more containers that otherwise would have moved to southern ports. And that is where those "hidden" costs come in to play. To briefly explain, most import containers in the UK move inland for unloading directly at the receivers premises or nominated warehouse. A relatively small percentage are unloaded in the port area and are usually returned to the quay. Taking Felixstowe which is the UK's largest port, and handles about 4 million TEU per year it probably means that a substantial percentage move "north." either by road or rail. Prices vary widely but a typical rail/road move from Felixstowe to a warehouse in Greater Manchester typically might cost a receiver anything from GBP450.00 to GBP550.00 assuming the line only charges for the single trip. However, some lines charge the full round trip cost, particularly if the receiver requests delivery by road which might be the only way a deadline delivery can be achieved. In this case the cost can easily rise by a further two or three hundred Pounds per 20 ft container. A 40ft container moving rail/road will be even more expensive. Once the container is delivered to that Greater Manchester warehouse, the line will try to match the import load with an export load, but with more containers being imported than exported full this is not always possible.so the line has to either return the empty to a nearby depot or port, or have it return to the port of entry. The alternative is to drop the empty container at a nearby depot or port, but then the line incurs lifting fees and storage so will try to manage it stocks to meet local demand. When the container in the depot is allocated to an export movement, the line will incur another lift charge and possibly an inspection fee as well as the cost of moving the container to the shippers premises and either back to the port or railhead which incurs further costs. Unfortunately, for the carrier, it's unlikely they will be able to secure the full cost of the journey south from the shipper as most carriers subsidise their export haulage costs, particularly along the M62 corridor and the West Midlands due to the local market conditions. As a result, the Carrier can easily end up picking up the cost of any southbound rail movement and even more if volume business like waste paper, plastic scrap and metal being involved. Here it is also worth remembering that these three commodities form the largest volumes to be exported from the UK and Europe generally back to Asia and that's all before we talk about empty units which have no contribution and still incur port handling costs etc. Calling at Liverpool reduces these repositioning costs and therefore for the ship owner the appeal grows, especially if can increase it's appeal across other markets such as Ireland and Scotland through the use of feeders.


That is the problem. The round the world liners make one call at best in the UK. ALL UK containers will be discharged at that one call, be it a southern port or Liverpool.

To suggest Liverpool as a second call only further weakens Liverpool's case.


I have never suggested to make Liverpool a second call, it is you who is thinking that. As we both agree, majority of Containers to/from UK to/from the East (Asia) will call once once in the UK whether Felixstowe or Southampton, and they are definitely not going to sail to Liverpool first or afterwards.

Again I emphasis that any of the ships that are on the transatlantic routes (America's) that Peel Holdings are seeking. As by coming to Liverpool rather than Southampton or sailing around to Felixstowe would ultimately save one/two days sailing and ultimately costs too especially if the goods on board are destined for the Midlands and the North including Scotland which many are anyway.

I'd agree that initially we are likely to see more new services from the west and one may not be far away, with those from the east likely to follow in the next twelve to eighteen months. As for double calls in the by these Far East services not happening, I can confirm this already does happen with 2m (Maersk and MSC) making a call on the AEI service at both Felixstowe and Southampton as below.

https://www.maerskline.com/routes/shipping-from-asia-to-europe/ae1-westbound

whilst the CMA-CGM/APL/MSC operated Epic 1 service also provides a double call at Felixstowe and Southampton as below.

http://www.cma-cgm.com/products-services/line-services/flyer/EPIC1

At the moment the UK market is distorted because the lines charge a premium charge in the freight for serving Liverpool and other Northern ports of anything between USD200.00 and USD500.00 per teu to compensate for the feedering costs and double handling at the transhipment port. Any carrier committing a direct service to Liverpool could reduce or even waive this additional cost and still come out on top assuming that they can gain critical mass, something which MSC for one have been doing over the last two years.
 

8A Rail

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Peel have released a interview with Gary Hodgson in which he provides more detail of how the new train services will work in what is a completely new concept in the UK.

https://youtu.be/nuUVHzBbGQ0

Peel Holdings are taking a "risk" in attempting to get this off the ground - not sure of the new concept though as all that is happening "Peel Holdings" are ordering the train service for customers to use if they so wish. The real issue is getting the customers literally on board and with sufficent quantities too. It is just not getting the trains to the central locations in Scotland and the Midlands as example's but also getting the trucks into place too at those locations to ultimately get the containers to their final destination. The logistics of this operation could be a nightmare if they are not careful. It did tickle me with his last comment though "job done" - if only it was as simple as that. :lol:
 
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Wavertreelad

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Peel Holdings are taking a "risk" in attempting to get this off the ground - not sure of the new concept though as all that is happening "Peel Holdings" are ordering the train service for customers to use if they so wish. The real issue is getting the customers literally on board and with sufficent quantities too. It is just not getting the trains to the central locations in Scotland and the Midlands as example's but also getting the trucks into place too at those locations to ultimately get the containers to their final destination. The logistics of this operation could be a nightmare if they are not careful. It did tickle me with his last comment though "job done" - if only it was as simple as that. :lol:

It's certainly either brave or foolish, but my guess is that Peel will have sourced several "base" traffics which might be moving on different carriers services but either call at Liverpool or could do so in the future. Peel will already have contacts with shippers and receivers* in the steel and chemical industries so will be aware of the potential movements and it's not surprising that the proposed trains will operate to the destinations announced.

Furthermore, this is not just Peel and a TOC teaming up, there is an established distribution company involved with an established rail operation as well which also covers much of the natural hinterland of the port.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/freight/single-view/view/world-rail-freight-news-round-up-51.html

"Peel Ports Group Strategic Projects Director Gary Hodgson told Railway Gazette on September 12 that the company was close to finalising a contract with the future operator of rail services from the Port of Liverpool to Daventry and Scotland. The aim is to commence movements of containers in the next three to four months. Terminal facilities and final road delivery would be provided by WH Malcolm at the Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal and Grangemouth, but it would be 'a Peel service', he stressed, with the port operator responsible for consolidating consignments."

http://www.malcolmgroup.co.uk/rail/rail-services/

The move is actually quite clever because it allows Peel to test the water for a potential investment in the rail industry in the future.
 

Olaf

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There has been a stead growth in exports over the last two years which I suspect is a key source of the growth in demand for traffic through Liverpool. I also suspect that is growth in demand from existing customers rather than from new flows, that is feeding this investment.
 

Wavertreelad

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There has been a stead growth in exports over the last two years which I suspect is a key source of the growth in demand for traffic through Liverpool. I also suspect that is growth in demand from existing customers rather than from new flows, that is feeding this investment.

There has been a steady growth in exports from UK and to the USA in particular driven on by the weak Pound and the improving American economy. Given Liverpool's premier position in this trade the increase is not surprising, and this week Peel will host a conference in Glasgow to promote Greenock and it's links to Liverpool2.

https://www.ajot.com/news/peel-ports-clydeport-to-host-shipping-conference-in-glasgow

However, to support an export growth there has to be a steady supply of empty containers coming into the areas of demand. The present range of services from Liverpool apart the ACL and St Lawrence service are almost entirely targeted at the North of England and north Midlands, ie it's natural hinterland. If Liverpool 2 is to be a success it has to expand this area to encompass a wider part of the UK which can really only be achieved by using trains, The existing network of the Malcolm Group puts Liverpool in the middle and thus in an ideal location to serve the destinations at both ends.
 

8A Rail

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Presumably these, running via Golborne Jn:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H81171/2018/05/08/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H81171/2018/05/08/advanced
More diesel trains running 97% under the wires.
But of course it's good that it has started.

Headcodes are = 4M35 03.06hrs Mossend - Seaforth CT and 4S35 14.07hrs Seaforth CT - Mossend
Second link should be: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H35983/2018/04/24/advanced
Rather novel having 'Intermodal' / 'Liner' trains operating on the western part of the L&M line. Those type of trains have been rare on that part of the line to say the least.

Which are the crew change points and which stops for traffic regulation purposes?

I understand that some 'Carlisle' drivers are route training on the l/e runs this week between Seaforth CT and Arpley.
 
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