Dutch start-up proposes cross-channel service to compete with Eurostar.

[nill]

Ebbsfleet is only a useful interchange for people driving and parking, and potentially coach services

For Kent, Ashford has better connections

For literally everywhere else, Stratford international is better due to presence of the tube/dlr/overground services, as well as GA interchanges

Of course, neither of these beat St. Pancras, which is why that is the station with capacity issues now

I did actually make a post regarding the capacity issues at St Pancras but it is just waiting for an Admin approval, so keep your eyes out for that.

 

[Citybreak1]

I'd say that the only room would be to put a new whole level of platforms under St Pancras (yes under the current Thameslink ones) either for international or domestic services with the other level being for the opposite. EMR & SE could do with more space and so could International services. You would want to keep one or two platforms on the "ground" level as international platforms so that if a Scottish/Northumbrian service to the continent is proposed they can come down the East Coast Mainline and turn around in St. Pancras as I don't see where the link from the ECML to HS1 is on Open Railway Maps without using the North London line which is a no go.

I know that this is a HUGE project but I'm always supprised by now small St Pancras is for what it does and we need to think ahead about the future.

The original plan was to keep Waterloo and St Pancras open. Maybe they made a mistake? But surely the E320 trains wouldn’t operate out of the old Waterloo terminal anyway? I don’t see any major works at St Pancras anyway who knows under future governments. This one just axed much HS2. If another operator does come along I imagine the waiting area would need reworked. Seems to be some unused space and maybe converting a few shops. If 3 operators came along major works would be required.

And personally I would keep things as they are and as a few DB trains to Frankfurt. Seems little evidence a rival will bring prices down any.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The original plan was to keep Waterloo and St Pancras open. Maybe they made a mistake? But surely the E320 trains wouldn’t operate out of the old Waterloo terminal anyway? I don’t see any major works at St Pancras anyway who knows under future governments. This one just axed much HS2. If another operator does come along I imagine the waiting area would need reworked. Seems to be some unused space and maybe converting a few shops. If 3 operators came along major works would be required.

And personally I would keep things as they are and as a few DB trains to Frankfurt. Seems little evidence a rival will bring prices down any.

One could argue that Waterloo desperately needed the capacity that the vacated international platforms provided for SWR services.

 

[Wolfie]

People talk about building a new international station. I think they should instead relocate the high speed trains to Kent and build a second departure area. Going back to Waterloo or Stratford seem unlikely. The Kent stations also won’t bring in much income. A full redevelopment of St Pancras would be required. Makes sense if they can have international trains running to Germany and beyond. The shops at the end could become a new departure area. I am surprised expanding St Pancras has not been discussed.

The problem with that suggestion is that fundamentally very few people want to go to Kent. If you introduce the same complications for train travel as for flying you remove one if the key advantages (i.e. city centre to city centre) and exacerbate the time differential.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A problem with Ebbsfleet is that if anyone is connecting by train to an international service they will have to get a train to London, then mess about in London to get halfway out to the M25 then get on a International train. Whereas at St Pancras it is very accessible from all other London terminals via a short tube journey.

Of course, but extra passenger capacity at St. P seems to be prohibitively expensive, and Ebbsfleet has the facilities, so either Ebbsfleet/Stratford/Ashford are your main options. Stratford is a possibility, but where do you turn back to avoid delaying Eurostar to St. P?

 

[Citybreak1]

The problem with that suggestion is that fundamentally very few people want to go to Kent. If you introduce the same complications for train travel as for flying you remove one if the key advantages (i.e. city centre to city centre) and exacerbate the time differential.

That’s why I don’t see any new company using Kent. They want to use St Pancras but nobody knows where the capacity will come from.

 

[Wolfie]

That’s why I don’t see any new company using Kent. They want to use St Pancras but nobody knows where the capacity will come from.

Yup

 

[Citybreak1]

Of course, but extra passenger capacity at St. P seems to be prohibitively expensive, and Ebbsfleet has the facilities, so either Ebbsfleet/Stratford/Ashford are your main options. Stratford is a possibility, but where do you turn back to avoid delaying Eurostar to St. P?

I am sure I read one of these start ups don’t want to use Kent. I believe the first proposal was London to Paris. They have trains ordered. The other two don’t seem realistic and have start dates of 2028. 2025 is the earliest one I read for London to Paris.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I am sure I read one of these start ups don’t want to use Kent. I believe the first proposal was London to Paris. They have trains ordered. The other two don’t seem realistic and have start dates of 2028. 2025 is the earliest one I read for London to Paris.

They had an "expression of interest" unfortunately, not an actual order - and if they want to use London, they'll have to have serious funding to expand St. P.

 

[Wolfie]

They had an "expression of interest" unfortunately, not an actual order - and if they want to use London, they'll have to have serious funding to expand St. P.

It's not just the physical facilities either. They will need to ensure that Border Force can properly man the facilities. Given the demands currently on them that is far from a given.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's not just the physical facilities either. They will need to ensure that Border Force can properly man the facilities. Given the demands currently on them that is far from a given.

Yes, and I understand getting PAF officials to relocate to the UK and operate the staggered French border is difficult too.

 

[nwales58]

... The other two don’t seem realistic and have start dates of 2028. 2025 is the earliest one I read for London to Paris.

2028 might be realistic, subject to everything already discussed and still pretty risky.
2025 is as realistic as a flying pig.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'd say that the only room would be to put a new whole level of platforms under St Pancras (yes under the current Thameslink ones) either for international or domestic services with the other level being for the opposite. EMR & SE could do with more space and so could International services. You would want to keep one or two platforms on the "ground" level as international platforms so that if a Scottish/Northumbrian service to the continent is proposed they can come down the East Coast Mainline and turn around in St. Pancras as I don't see where the link from the ECML to HS1 is on Open Railway Maps without using the North London line which is a no go.

I know that this is a HUGE project but I'm always supprised by now small St Pancras is for what it does and we need to think ahead about the future.

I'm sure there's a track from the ECML (the same one which turns off towards the slope up to the NLL) which has a link round to the international platforms at St P. Whether or not it's signalled and usable is another matter, but in principle it's an option.

 

[Austriantrain]

I don’t want to open another new thread (maybe it would be useful to consolidate the various threads about potential new operators), but:

SBB have stated that they might consider long-term plans for a Basel - London service, citing high demand form Switzerland to London.

«Basel–London in rund fünf Stunden»: SBB prüfen direkten Zug nach England

Keine andere Stadt wird ab dem Flughafen Zürich häufiger angeflogen als London. Von der Nachfrage wollen nun auch die SBB profitieren.

www.watson.ch

„No other city is served more frequently from Zurich Airport than London. Today, for example, 20 flights are planned. As the proportion of business travellers on the route is high, demand is also relatively evenly distributed throughout the year and the willingness to pay is high. SBB now also wants to benefit from these ideal conditions for travel providers.

As the Travelnews portal reports, they are considering the introduction of a direct train from Switzerland to London as a long-term goal. Philipp Mäder, Head of International Passenger Traffic at SBB, said this last week at a symposium organised by the Swiss Travel Association in Parma. "Basel-London in around five hours is possible," he was quoted as saying. However, it would not be easy to realise the project because the infrastructure on the route is expensive, partly due to the journey through the Eurotunnel.“

 

[mike57]

All these proposals suffer from the same fatal flaw, lack of space and facilities at St Pancras, until that can be addressed I do not see how any additional services can operate.

Services could use a different starting point in the UK, but the reason Eurostar is running at capacity a lot of the time is because St Pancras is convenient, with good connections for passengers originating within London, as well as further afield. ECML and MML both terminate within the King Cross - St Pancras complex, and the WCML is 10 mins walk, thats a huge section of the country that has easy, one train access to Eurostar. It would be interesting to colour a map and show all towns and cities that have a direct service in to King Cross - St Pancras, and possibly Euston as well.

If people travelling to Central London or points beyond end up at Ebbsfleet or Ashford, and have to change trains/modes then the advantage over flying is immediately eroded, and the business case to charge more than a low cost air fare is eroded with it so its no longer profitable

The only scope I see might be a low cost operation from Ashford to Lille Europe, but this was discussed in another thread and given tunnel access charges it looks to me like the cost difference might not be enough to make it attractive.

So this raises two questions, where to expand the facilities at St Pancras, and who is going to pay because its going to be very expensive. I think its very unlikely to be subsidised even by a Euro friendly government as the travel which results would be seen as discretionary or business based, the full cost of which shoud be born by the travellers and quite rightly should not be subsidised. This is before you even get into Border control issues.

The where to expand is an even bigger issue, there just isnt any space without major demolition, the British library hems it in to the west, to the east of Kings Cross might work but would be horrendously expensive, and underground is also very congested.

So yes the demand is there for further services, and premium fares could probably be charged, but unless capacity at the London end can be massively increased I dont see how they will ever get off the ground.

 

[duesselmartin]

lack of capacity at St.P.
has that station really been planned and build without the option of growth?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I don’t want to open another new thread (maybe it would be useful to consolidate the various threads about potential new operators), but:

SBB have stated that they might consider long-term plans for a Basel - London service, citing high demand form Switzerland to London.

«Basel–London in rund fünf Stunden»: SBB prüfen direkten Zug nach England

Keine andere Stadt wird ab dem Flughafen Zürich häufiger angeflogen als London. Von der Nachfrage wollen nun auch die SBB profitieren.

www.watson.ch

„No other city is served more frequently from Zurich Airport than London. Today, for example, 20 flights are planned. As the proportion of business travellers on the route is high, demand is also relatively evenly distributed throughout the year and the willingness to pay is high. SBB now also wants to benefit from these ideal conditions for travel providers.

As the Travelnews portal reports, they are considering the introduction of a direct train from Switzerland to London as a long-term goal. Philipp Mäder, Head of International Passenger Traffic at SBB, said this last week at a symposium organised by the Swiss Travel Association in Parma. "Basel-London in around five hours is possible," he was quoted as saying. However, it would not be easy to realise the project because the infrastructure on the route is expensive, partly due to the journey through the Eurotunnel.“

Started a thread on it.

 

[mike57]

lack of capacity at St.P.
has that station really been planned and build without the option of growth?

'Planned' in the UK, you must be joking surely. Takes cynical hat off.

What was seen as adequate at the time of construction is now at capacity due to a number of things making train travel to the continent more attractive

• Problems at UK airports, and the often poor experience that results when flying, low cost airlines hidden charges, out of town departure and arrival points add to journey time, airport delays, the need to arrive well before departure, luggage restrictions and the lack of comfort when travelling by air to name a few.
• Increased border controls (but I think this is overplayed, the actual slowdown in throughput is fairly small)
• The increase in passengers as people realise they get from London to Paris or Brussels in around two hours by train. To me Hs1 and the resulting speed up tipped the balance to the train from flying.
• A general increase in rail travel over the last 15+ years since St Pancras opened.

The area to the west of St Pancras where the British Library and the Francis Crick institute now stand, which I think used to be the old goods yards should have been protected from development to allow room for growth, but that opportunity is now lost.

 

[NIT100]

As I understand it from reading this thread, the issue at St Pancras is Passenger and border processing capacity, not physical infrastructure capacity for terminating trains. Is there scope for adding stops at Stratford International, and using this to specifically restrict ticket sales from St Pancras. So a train calling at both has a percentage of tickets allocated to each station, and once they are sold, then only tickets from Other stations for that service could be purchased, thus spreading the passenger load between international stations? Shoot me down if this is wrong. Understand Kent stations are not passenger friendly, but Stratford Int. vs St Pancras wouldn't make much difference to many passengers.

 

[YorkRailFan]

lack of capacity at St.P.
has that station really been planned and build without the option of growth?

For a station that was going to be closed, one should be happy it still exists.

 

[mike57]

As I understand it from reading this thread, the issue at St Pancras is Passenger and border processing capacity, not physical infrastructure capacity for terminating trains. Is there scope for adding stops at Stratford International, and using this to specifically restrict ticket sales from St Pancras. So a train calling at both has a percentage of tickets allocated to each station, and once they are sold, then only tickets from Other stations for that service could be purchased, thus spreading the passenger load between international stations? Shoot me down if this is wrong. Understand Kent stations are not passenger friendly, but Stratford Int. vs St Pancras wouldn't make much difference to many passengers.

I think the issue is a lot of (most?) people want to travel to St Pancras, so the only way you will encourage them to change is through price differential. It would also mean a duplication of St Pancras facilities. Or you will find a proportion of the Stratford seats are unsold. Also the extra stop will increase overall journey time

 

[30907]

lack of capacity at St.P.
has that station really been planned and build without the option of growth?

The plan at that stage was for half the ES service to continue using Waterloo.

 

[Citybreak1]

People saying lack of space at St Pancras. I imagine these new operators have a solution to this. Why would they plan it without a solution? Maybe they should make these plans public. I know they have ruled out using Kent.

 

[Gaelan]

It would be interesting to colour a map and show all towns and cities that have a direct service in to King Cross - St Pancras, and possibly Euston as well.

Kings Cross/St Pancras:


Euston:


From https://direkt.bahn.guru/

 

[YorkRailFan]

Kings Cross/St Pancras:
View attachment 147080

Euston:
View attachment 147081

From https://direkt.bahn.guru/

Interesting that stations that only have GC services to London aren't shown.

 

[LLivery]

Genuine question, why is it not up to the owner of St Pancras to fund capacity enhancements at their station?

I think the issue is a lot of (most?) people want to travel to St Pancras, so the only way you will encourage them to change is through price differential. It would also mean a duplication of St Pancras facilities. Or you will find a proportion of the Stratford seats are unsold. Also the extra stop will increase overall journey time

You could just have a quota for the number of passengers to board at St Pancras, with the rest reserved for Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

It's fair to say most passengers want London, but Stratford is basically East London's Clapham, with very different connections to the Eastern side of London (including Canary Wharf) and Eastern Home Counties. Often, Greater Anglia leaves Liverpool Street half full (if that) and fills up at Stratford. Yes, many Anglia pax want the Olympic Park and Westfield and HS1 pax hardly will, but most cross-Channel passengers live in the suburbs of London and Île-de-France, not Central London, especially if fares become more affordable.

And if East Londoners are willing to travel to City, Southend and Stansted Airports, let alone Heathrow, I don't see why Stratford wouldn't be a success.

 

[Citybreak1]

Genuine question, why is it not up to the owner of St Pancras to fund capacity enhancements at their station?



You could just have a quota for the number of passengers to board at St Pancras, with the rest reserved for Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

It's fair to say most passengers want London, but Stratford is basically East London's Clapham, with very different connections to the Eastern side of London (including Canary Wharf) and Eastern Home Counties. Often, Greater Anglia leaves Liverpool Street half full (if that) and fills up at Stratford. Yes, many Anglia pax want the Olympic Park and Westfield and HS1 pax hardly will, but most cross-Channel passengers live in the suburbs of London and Île-de-France, not Central London, especially if fares become more affordable.

And if East Londoners are willing to travel to City, Southend and Stansted Airports, let alone Heathrow, I don't see why Stratford wouldn't be a success.

Where did the funds come from the original move to St Pancras? Personally I think any expansion has to come from a government. There’s an election next year? I think they could add a few trains and expanded the unused space in departures. I think any redevelopment would have to come from a government. I think extra trains will run in the next ten years. There’s a demand for airline free travel and a green future. They could end speculation and tell us how they plan to redevelop the station?

 

[stuu]

lack of capacity at St.P.
has that station really been planned and build without the option of growth?

The issue is getting people off trains. The designers didn't envisage that the country would be stupid enough to leave the EU.

Build a floor above the newer bit for processing arriving passengers?

 

[Gaelan]

The issue is getting people off trains. The designers didn't envisage that the country would be stupid enough to leave the EU.

Build a floor above the newer bit for processing arriving passengers?

Are you proposing an end to juxtaposed controls? Currently no Eurostars have arrival checks.

(It's not a bad idea, to be honest, doing all the checks in London in both directions; it'd allow through service to any European station. Would need a Home Office not trying to exploit a loophole in asylum law, though.)

 

[LLivery]

Where did the funds come from the original move to St Pancras? Personally I think any expansion has to come from a government. There’s an election next year? I think they could add a few trains and expanded the unused space in departures. I think any redevelopment would have to come from a government. I think extra trains will run in the next ten years. There’s a demand for airline free travel and a green future. They could end speculation and tell us how they plan to redevelop the station?

Well, exactly. More international travel is good for the UK economy and Net Zero commitments, so at least some government funding doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Surprisingly, in the 10 European rail improvements, the EU kept London - Amsterdam as an aspiration for better services. So even here, partly funding some improvements for the Schengen border at St Pancras might not be out of the question.

Extra trains are a certainty, a redevelopment, however? I can't see it unless that means removing some shops and expanding the international departures space under platforms.