Easing of Coronavirus restrictions in Scotland

Butts

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We're talking about a zero-enforcement environment where the rules are unclear, the laws have not really been tested for legality, and very little information on the matter will be provided by English airports. I'd expect about 10% of people to comply, and everybody else not to. Whether they fail to comply accidentally, negligently or purposefully is strictly irrelevant to the disease.

To be fair The Scottish Government have not dismissed the proposals out of hand but just delayed indicating whether they will fall into line on October 4th.

As that date is close to Scottish Half Term who knows they may surprise us :E
 
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Butts

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Anyone entering Scotland, by any route, who has been outwith the Common Travel Area in the preceding 10 days is legally obliged to complete a passenger locator form and have a negative COVID test and booked day 2 (and day 8 if applicable) tests.

if that's the case why are you able to enter a Scottish address and an English Test Code on the PLF land in Heathrow with no problems and then connect to a Scottish Domestic flight with no further intervention from the authorities ?
 

island

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if that's the case why are you able to enter a Scottish address and an English Test Code on the PLF land in Heathrow with no problems and then connect to a Scottish Domestic flight with no further intervention from the authorities ?
Scotland accepts English day 2 test codes since a couple of weeks ago.
 

haggishunter

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Sorry, with all due spect you are all quite literally grasping at straws. It will take a second to scan a QR code and see the result, the exact same as checking a ticket electronically. I recently returned from Germany where they have a passport scheme in place for pretty much every attraction or leisure activity indoors. I noticed they could check covid certificates in about 1 second, even my NHS on which didn't scan in their system was verified in about 2 seconds. I am not even particularly in favor of the scheme, but seeing this kind of hysterical reaction from people is really quite maddening.
Not all of the arguments above are grasping at straws, there certainly is technical and logistical challenges that will vary from venue to venue. Not least that sourcing requisite hardware could well be an issue for some because problems with chip supply is having all sorts of knock on effects. As an example we've been quoted July 2022 as the earliest supply for card terminals for a project!

The issue of defining nightclubs under Scots Licensing laws is clearly a problem if you are familiar with the way places either have an on-sale license or they don't, this provides one possible route of scope creep because it would be easier to say the rules apply to all businesses with an alcohol license. That without any additional scope creep would drag the ski areas into the vaccine passport system.

Last autumn considerable time, effort and money was spent at 3 of the Scottish ski areas preparing for level 4 operations, with new online ticket purchase systems put in place, and hardware for self collection of tickets once on site. These reduced interaction with staff, speed things up and eliminated ticket office queues - all good under the covid circumstances. Turned out all that effort was for 9 days of uplift operations under Level 4 Lockdown before things got tightened up to stay at home because of the Alpha variant!

If vaccine passports are now added to the mix, it will make that investment even more of a waste because the self collection of tickets wouldn't be permitted, every ticket collector would have have to have vaccine passports scanned for each ticket. This all on extremely marginal rural internet connections, and if the Scottish app works like the NHS Covid Pass in England then on a busy day that will be more network trauma and indeed 2 of the ski area bases where the ticket offices are located don't have a data signal at all until you are further up the mountain.

Having worked with ticketing systems and scannable tickets both in terms of access to ski areas and at events, both behind the scenes and on the sharp end dealing with the public, I could easily see the vaccine passport system tripling the time to process each patron, particularly where customers have to switch between ticket and Covid Pass and the scanner will need to be switched between apps. If your a football club or a theatre with a fixed start and you can usually get everyone in over 15-20 minutes, that's a problem and with the passports your still trying to get people in 30-45minutes later....

Scope creep of this is a concern for various sectors and it has to be asked can there really be sufficient benefit given Scotland is one of the most vaccinated countries on Earth for the costs and issues that are potentially going to be created?
 

island

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If vaccine passports are now added to the mix, it will make that investment even more of a waste because the self collection of tickets wouldn't be permitted, every ticket collector would have have to have vaccine passports scanned for each ticket. This all on extremely marginal rural internet connections, and if the Scottish app works like the NHS Covid Pass in England then on a busy day that will be more network trauma and indeed 2 of the ski area bases where the ticket offices are located don't have a data signal at all until you are further up the mountain.
The scanning app does not need to be online to work. The English vaccine pass app does need internet to retrieve a pass but it can be stored on the device‘s wallet.
Having worked with ticketing systems and scannable tickets both in terms of access to ski areas and at events, both behind the scenes and on the sharp end dealing with the public, I could easily see the vaccine passport system tripling the time to process each patron, particularly where customers have to switch between ticket and Covid Pass and the scanner will need to be switched between apps. If your a football club or a theatre with a fixed start and you can usually get everyone in over 15-20 minutes, that's a problem and with the passports your still trying to get people in 30-45minutes later....
I suppose you could have different staff scanning ticket and vaccine pass successively, but I can readily see it being a logistical nightmare whatever way you slice it.
 

Butts

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To be fair The Scottish Government have not dismissed the proposals out of hand but just delayed indicating whether they will fall into line on October 4th.

As that date is close to Scottish Half Term who knows they may surprise us :E

And indeed they have - hurrah !!
 

ld0595

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The vaccine passport thread is now locked but it seems like the Scottish Government’s passport rollout tonight has been plagued with issues.

BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Vaccine passport app launch hit by problems

I've tried myself and haven't been successful so far. After several errors during the verification process, it the says I can't be found on the system.

Once again, more shambles from the Scottish Government given that venues will still be checking them as of tomorrow. I guarantee this will lead to fully vaccinated people being refused entry this weekend because they are unable to prove their status on the app.

Spectacularly poor timing as well, releasing them the evening before they are implemented.
 

Berliner

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Mine worked first time and it was set up within about 5 minutes. I don't plan on going anywhere that needs it in the near future, but at least it's an app now which is easy to use and read and not a fiddly PDF file which has no authentication behind it.
 

Scotrail314209

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From Paisley, sadly.
The vaccine passport thread is now locked but it seems like the Scottish Government’s passport rollout tonight has been plagued with issues.

BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Vaccine passport app launch hit by problems

I've tried myself and haven't been successful so far. After several errors during the verification process, it the says I can't be found on the system.

Once again, more shambles from the Scottish Government given that venues will still be checking them as of tomorrow. I guarantee this will lead to fully vaccinated people being refused entry this weekend because they are unable to prove their status on the app.

Spectacularly poor timing as well, releasing them the evening before they are implemented.
ScotGov have said enforcement isn't mandatory until October 18th, with several businesses choosing to wait until the 18th to do mandatory enforcement.

They say the reason is to sort out any technical issues and teething problems.

Nicola Sturgeon has delayed the start of legal enforcement of Scotland’s new vaccine passports by 17 days after a backlash from nightclub and venue owners.

The first minister’s concession comes after the nightclub industry launched legal action against the rules, which force customers at venues and large sports and music events to prove they have had both Covid vaccinations or are exempt.



Sturgeon told MSPs on Tuesday she accepted that venues needed more time to adjust to the regulations and work out how they could be applied. Opposition leaders said the delay justified criticisms of the scheme from across the hospitality and entertainment sectors.
 

TheAlbanach_

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So much easier to get a covid passport on the Irish covid app. Just scan your second dose QR code from the pdf off the website and it’ll come up with your details.

I tried the Scottish app and it’s awful, just didn’t work for me at all
 

Scotrail12

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Do you need an app for it? I refuse to download any government app regardless of what that will mean for me though do have a copy of my vaccine status.
 

kez19

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ScotGov have said enforcement isn't mandatory until October 18th, with several businesses choosing to wait until the 18th to do mandatory enforcement.

They say the reason is to sort out any technical issues and teething problems.

If it’s to sort out teething problems then surely why launch it?

Its the equivalent of updating phones/computers etc, maybe Scottish Government should consider BETA testing in the future (mind you would they even know what that is either?)

Also that’s 3 app’s Scotland now has is it time to consider cutting it to an all in one app? (I do wonder how much this is all costing including running 3 apps)
 

Red Onion

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There’s still no way for those of us with medical exemptions to apply for some sort of proof of exemption. What an absolute mess they’ve made of this.
 

takno

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Also that’s 3 app’s Scotland now has is it time to consider cutting it to an all in one app? (I do wonder how much this is all costing including running 3 apps)
The crazy bureaucracy makes it almost impossible to do any work on any of the apps, because almost the entire day is taken up in "coordinating" the expensive consultancies and updating all the stakeholders. If the apps were combined, both the coordination and the number of stakeholders would increase, and no progress would be possible at all.

That would suit me fine of course, but it wouldn't let the government drive forward their insane agenda
 

kez19

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The crazy bureaucracy makes it almost impossible to do any work on any of the apps, because almost the entire day is taken up in "coordinating" the expensive consultancies and updating all the stakeholders. If the apps were combined, both the coordination and the number of stakeholders would increase, and no progress would be possible at all.

That would suit me fine of course, but it wouldn't let the government drive forward their insane agenda

In general I haven’t downloaded any of the apps, I did download the new app, tried it once with my NHS Inform email didn’t go any further and deleted it for now, I don’t know how good the NHS England app works - it looks good from the outset but haven’t tried it since not registered in England - I just find the Scottish approach seems to be more apps than anything else! Another factor is app space on android (read so far and people are rightly to kick up a fuss and they too have asked why 3 and to put in 1 app), I’m lucky I have an iPhone but I don’t see the point in loading it up full of NHS apps from around the UK it’s totally pointless (well I only go to England that’s it)
 

takno

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In general I haven’t downloaded any of the apps, I did download the new app, tried it once with my NHS Inform email didn’t go any further and deleted it for now, I don’t know how good the NHS England app works - it looks good from the outset but haven’t tried it since not registered in England - I just find the Scottish approach seems to be more apps than anything else! Another factor is app space on android (read so far and people are rightly to kick up a fuss and they too have asked why 3 and to put in 1 app), I’m lucky I have an iPhone but I don’t see the point in loading it up full of NHS apps from around the UK it’s totally pointless (well I only go to England that’s it)
App space on Android hasn't been an issue on any but the cheapest phones for 5 years or so - it's just one of the bogeymen from the past that Apple and their adherents like to drag out to keep people on their dying ecosystem.

More relevantly, if it was all one app it would be bigger than any of the individual apps, so it would be less likely to fit. I assume people would be more concerned about the passport app, which should be absolutely tiny, and less concerned about the increasingly-irrelevant track and trace app, which is potentially much bigger.

EDIT: I'm just reading some more analysis on the Android app and it does sound phenomenally bad. It sounds like they've used a pretty poor development platform and made a complete mess of packaging it for deployment. People with 4-5 year old phones might struggle to get it installed at all, let alone alongside other similarly-badly-built apps.
 
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Highlandspring

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There’s still no way for those of us with medical exemptions to apply for some sort of proof of exemption. What an absolute mess they’ve made of this.
The legislation is published here -


It’s a bit awkward to follow because it has been done as an amendment to an existing Statutory Instrument but in the case of medical ‘exemptions’ it has almost nothing to say other than:

(3) A person is permitted to be on premises for the purposes of paragraph (1) if the person—

(c) cannot be fully vaccinated against coronavirus for medical reasons,

How this is to be determined is not mentioned in law at all. It doesn’t require, for example, this to be certified by a medical practitioner or any sort of proof of the medical inadvisability of vaccination to be presented to anyone.
 

kez19

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App space on Android hasn't been an issue on any but the cheapest phones for 5 years or so - it's just one of the bogeymen from the past that Apple and their adherents like to drag out to keep people on their dying ecosystem.

More relevantly, if it was all one app it would be bigger than any of the individual apps, so it would be less likely to fit. I assume people would be more concerned about the passport app, which should be absolutely tiny, and less concerned about the increasingly-irrelevant track and trace app, which is potentially much bigger.

EDIT: I'm just reading some more analysis on the Android app and it does sound phenomenally bad. It sounds like they've used a pretty poor development platform and made a complete mess of packaging it for deployment. People with 4-5 year old phones might struggle to get it installed at all, let alone alongside other similarly-badly-built apps.

Does anyone know roughly the size of the NHS App for England? I understand that the UK government has said no to it for now but what difference is there (to both Android and Apple users?)

According to Twitter #NHS Scotland COVID App or #NHS Scotland - seems to still be ongoing, in my mind it should be pulled until issues are fixed then relaunch (if that’s the case), why keep a buggy app active ?
 
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takno

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I had to look on iPhone to see what that size was equivalent too, similar to the Just Eat app yet that’s functional!
And yet JustEat also manage to provide a fully-functional website. This idea that you can ask people to install an app for everything went out of date about 10 years ago. Which makes it perfect timing for government IT to get on the bandwagon I guess.
 

kez19

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And yet JustEat also manage to provide a fully-functional website. This idea that you can ask people to install an app for everything went out of date about 10 years ago. Which makes it perfect timing for government IT to get on the bandwagon I guess.

Yet you would think the Scottish Government would be ahead of the game and it’s clear they are not! Might be a bit off topic but even looking for NHS advice I prefer the UK one to the NHS Inform site (I try to avoid the Scottish one as much as I can!)

If we are to believe that the Scottish Government spent £600,000 on an app it’s pretty poor and in a way the last in the UK to have one it makes you wonder what else is to come out of this whole fiasco?

I sent a letter to the Scottish Government recently on my thoughts before launch ie costs and if being valid in England in short fobbed off and quite possibly deflected from my questions - so again what’s the point?
 

devon_metro

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The French app is far superior. Simply scan the pdf from the vaccine certificate. The Scottish venue checking app recognises it too. No need to enter any personal detail. The Scottish app sounds like a privacy and security disaster.
 

duncanp

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It was noticeable that Her Majesty was wearing a mask at the opening of the Scottish Parliament today.

Queen Elizabeth the Second, however, was completely mask free. :D
 

nedchester

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It was noticeable that Her Majesty was wearing a mask at the opening of the Scottish Parliament today.

Queen Elizabeth the Second, however, was completely mask free. :D
:D :D

That genuinely has had me 'laughing out loud'!
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
It was noticeable that Her Majesty was wearing a mask at the opening of the Scottish Parliament today.

Queen Elizabeth the Second, however, was completely mask free. :D

The present monarch in Scotland is not Elizabeth II, as before the Union of the Crowns in 1603, Scotland never had a Queen Elizabeth.

I have heard over the years that Lizzie Windsor is referred to as "The People's Queen" in Scotland.
 

takno

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The present monarch in Scotland is not Elizabeth II, as before the Union of the Crowns in 1603, Scotland never had a Queen Elizabeth.

I have heard over the years that Lizzie Windsor is referred to as "The People's Queen" in Scotland.
This letter covers off why that isn't the case with admirable clarity: https://www.heraldscotland.com/opin...refer-monarch-elizabeth-ii-even-north-border/

I suspect the last remaining people in Scotland who actually care still refer to her as King George's little girl though tbh.
 

102 fan

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The present monarch in Scotland is not Elizabeth II, as before the Union of the Crowns in 1603, Scotland never had a Queen Elizabeth.

I have heard over the years that Lizzie Windsor is referred to as "The People's Queen" in Scotland.


Is it really that difficult for you to call her by her correct title?
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Is it really that difficult for you to call her by her correct title?

I don't do titles, sorry.

We are all born the same way, we all breath the same air, and we all eventually die.

Of course, if you really want to split hairs, the present monarch is a descendant from the Saxe-Coburg Gotha family in Germany. Hence Johnny Rotten's comment years ago that she is a German tourist.
 

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