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Easing of Covid rules in England, including removal of "plan B" measures

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Failed Unit

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If there is now a growth in rail passengers numbers, will the thinned-out timetables be able to cope?
Judging by my trip in yesterday - they won't. The train was full with standees to a level I haven't seen since pre-pandemic.

Great Northern are only running 2x Metro services per hour, next week is the same (so it will be interesting to see if people start getting left on the platform). They need to get back to the pre-Christmas timetable but I don't know if that is possible before 1st Feb (The are talking about the 17th Feb but hopefully they can at least get some extras in the peak before then). Ironically I saw a driver training train leave just ahead of ours. I know that they can cancel that a very short notice but not very joined up thinking. We are encourage back in from Monday - but the train services is discouraging us to use it.
 
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nw1

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How could this possibly be enforced?

Both in general terms of enforcement, and without stigmatising as "infected" those who choose to continue wearing a mask?

It would be even less enforceable than the current requirement to stay at home after testing positive.

I was just trying to come up with a 'compromise' solution to end the self-isolation requirement soon.

But perhaps as you imply we need to remove the 'stigma' of having Covid.
 

nw1

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There should not be a stigma attached to having Covid because it is no big deal.

Exactly, the problem is there is in the eyes of some people. We certainly can't go on forever being afraid of it.
 

21C101

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Always worth remembering that it could have been far worse. This is a genuine tweet from the First Minister of Queensland [their version of Sturgeon] introducing the Camp Commandant Commissioner of their new Toowomba Wellcamp Covid Quarantine Camp. It appears that Hugo Boss designed the eerily familiar uniform.
 

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nedchester

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Some great virtue signalling on Twitter…….

This one tickled and annoyed me:

“It’s my little boy’s birthday next week and we’re not having a party. Regardless of what politicians say, COVID rates are really high, lots of people are still vulnerable and we need to protect our communities.

We have to think about our society and care for one another.”

So deny your child of some much needed social interaction because you have the fear / want to be virtuous?
 

Bantamzen

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Always worth remembering that it could have been far worse. This is a genuine tweet from the First Minister of Queensland [their version of Sturgeon] introducing the Camp Commandant Commissioner of their new Toowomba Wellcamp Covid Quarantine Camp. It appears that Hugo Boss designed the eerily familiar uniform.
What the actual @*£$?
 

nw1

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Some great virtue signalling on Twitter…….

This one tickled and annoyed me:

“It’s my little boy’s birthday next week and we’re not having a party. Regardless of what politicians say, COVID rates are really high, lots of people are still vulnerable and we need to protect our communities.

We have to think about our society and care for one another.”

So deny your child of some much needed social interaction because you have the fear / want to be virtuous?

Yes, quite, how about care for your child and think about his future mental health which will suffer the longer you leave him in isolation.

How parents treat their children has a profound effect on how they turn out as adults.
 

nw1

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Always worth remembering that it could have been far worse. This is a genuine tweet from the First Minister of Queensland [their version of Sturgeon] introducing the Camp Commandant Commissioner of their new Toowomba Wellcamp Covid Quarantine Camp. It appears that Hugo Boss designed the eerily familiar uniform.

Why are Australia still going along with this managed quarantine nonsense? It is utterly pointless, especially given how much Covid there is in Australia now. Are they trying to beat China to the no.1 spot for pointless, over-the-top measures?
 

yorkie

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Judgemental, much?

Oh yes, this is the internet, I forgot.
What did I say that was judgemental?

Can you answer any of my points?

The medium makes no difference; I'd be happy to ask the same questions through any other medium.

(assuming you are replying to me; you've not quoted anyone, so it is difficult to tell)
 

43066

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Always worth remembering that it could have been far worse. This is a genuine tweet from the First Minister of Queensland [their version of Sturgeon] introducing the Camp Commandant Commissioner of their new Toowomba Wellcamp Covid Quarantine Camp. It appears that Hugo Boss designed the eerily familiar uniform.

That has to be parody… Surely?!
 

Feathers44

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What did I say that was judgemental?

Can you answer any of my points?

The medium makes no difference; I'd be happy to ask the same questions through any other medium.

(assuming you are replying to me; you've not quoted anyone, so it is difficult to tell)
No, not at you at all. My apologies.

it was more that, in the moment, I found it somewhat distasteful to pile into some random parents off the internet just because they took a different decision to the one others would have taken. It’s the partisan reaction I was, in turn, reacting to.

All tolerance of opposing views is dead and that’s a shame.
 

takno

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No, not at you at all. My apologies.

it was more that, in the moment, I found it somewhat distasteful to pile into some random parents off the internet just because they took a different decision to the one others would have taken. It’s the partisan reaction I was, in turn, reacting to.

All tolerance of opposing views is dead and that’s a shame.
I suspect the original tweet (the authors of which are extremely unlikely to read this thread anyway) was a lot more defence through aggression than anything else. It reads as a rather smug declaration that they are doing something because it's the "right thing to do" and that they are better than other people. I suspect they actually did a lot of worrying about it and came reluctantly to the (wrong) conclusion, and are now trying to convince themselves as much as anybody else that they are right.

It's a shame people have been misled into this state of mind by a relentless media, and government Comms which have been heartlessly designed to achieve a single outcome without any consideration at all of the collateral damage they cause.
 

kristiang85

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I do worry about the current "COVID generation" of children and what it will lead to in adulthood. If a life of screen only communication and restricted socialising is ingrained in them now, how will this manifest long term?
 

Feathers44

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I think, as a society, we’re all far too precious about stuff like that. People have coped with generations of change (in the last century more than others of course). This is just one more iteration and people will cope. They always do.
 

LAX54

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Yes, quite, how about care for your child and think about his future mental health which will suffer the longer you leave him in isolation.

How parents treat their children has a profound effect on how they turn out as adults.
Reminds me of an 'incident' after the second lockdown, I was in a shopping centre, standing outside a store, a Woman and her daughter walked up towards the door, the girl, about 8 or 9 years old, suddenly stopped when she saw me, and hid behind her Mum (who was already wearing her mask), she stayed glued to her Mum until in the shop, (mind you of course...it could have been me scaring her !!)
 

yorksrob

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I think, as a society, we’re all far too precious about stuff like that. People have coped with generations of change (in the last century more than others of course). This is just one more iteration and people will cope. They always do.

Fortunately, I don't think society will be undergoing long term change to the way it socialises. People are getting back to normal even now.
 

43066

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No, not at you at all. My apologies.

it was more that, in the moment, I found it somewhat distasteful to pile into some random parents off the internet just because they took a different decision to the one others would have taken. It’s the partisan reaction I was, in turn, reacting to.

All tolerance of opposing views is dead and that’s a shame.

Agreed. However there’s been far more of that coming from the pro restriction camp over the past couple of years.
 

brad465

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That is what I thuught but it is a genuine tweet from the premier [first minister] of Queensland State. Blue tick genuine but some very godwinesque responses from outraged Queenslanders.


Yes while I do my best to avoid fulfilling Godwin's law in arguments, there comes a point where comparisons are practically unavoidable. If this situation is not a suitable comparison, it won't be far off one.

"The only thing we learn from history is we learn nothing from history."
 

bramling

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I think, as a society, we’re all far too precious about stuff like that. People have coped with generations of change (in the last century more than others of course). This is just one more iteration and people will cope. They always do.

I do think it’s going to take time to shake off some of the negative behaviours which have spawned as a result of all this. Constant working at home with little supervision and not having to answer to anyone does seem to have bred bad attitude in some people.

Many people working in public-facing roles say they’ve found themselves taking increased attitude and abuse over the last two years. Yet isn’t all the working from home supposed to lead to people being more chilled? If so, it doesn’t seem to be happening.
 

21C101

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Peter Hitchens I think hits the nail right on the head this morning (my bold):

PETER HITCHENS: Who is Labour's hero? A nurse who stopped a man seeing his dying wife


Who wants to pull Al Johnson down, and why? I’m no friend of the Prime Minister and would gladly have seen him fall in March 2020 when he launched his Maoist plan to close the country, trash our liberty and wreck the economy.
But at that time, and for months afterwards, I had almost no allies at all. Gosh, if someone had called me in May 2020 and said ‘Downing Street is holding boozy parties while Johnson is ordering the nation into strict isolation’, I’d have welcomed the leak and used it to try to destroy a policy I always saw as wrong and out of proportion.
But nobody did call me, even though lots of people must have known then.
It is only now, when Johnson has finally stood up to the panic-mongers and begun to liberate the country, that the leaks have come.

And for once there is an actual difference between Labour and the Tories. And in one official tweet by the Labour Party, you can see what it is.
The tweet was issued by the Labour Party on January 13 and has attracted remarkably little attention.
In truth, it should have led every bulletin and been on every front page, for it takes you directly into the mind of Sir Keir Starmer and all the other lockdown fanatics, in a way never previously possible.
It approvingly quotes a nurse, whose name is given as ‘Jenny, NHS nurse’. She says: ‘I remember May 20, 2020 vividly. I spent hours on the phone to a man who was in the hospital car park, utterly desperate to see his wife.
‘He begged, wept, shouted to be let in but we said no – for the greater good of everyone else. She died unexpectedly and alone, as the Government had a party.’
I feel sorry for ‘Jenny’, because she was deluded by fear propaganda and did not really know what she was doing. But I still think that what she did was terribly wrong.
If I had prevented a husband from seeing his dying wife ‘for the greater good of everyone else’, while the poor man begged and shouted for mercy, I might now keep quiet about it.
Even more, I might feel a deep sense of regret and shame that my self-righteous officiousness had so utterly blinded me to the simple human necessity for kindness above all.

God knows we are all capable of appalling cruelty, but it is never worse than when we think we are doing it for a good reason. This is why all Utopias end with the idealists arresting and then killing those who will not conform to the new paradise. The fanaticism of the Covid authoritarians is frantic mainly because they think that what they are doing is unquestionably right.
And it is these zealots who now seek to destroy Johnson because he has finally deserted them
and begun to rediscover the world of proportion, reason and kindness, in which a man who wishes to see his dying wife is not left howling in tears, alone in the car park, but is granted his wish.
For that simple difference between the two sides in this row, I back Johnson against Starmer – because I have to and if you are wise, you will too.
You don’t want people like Jenny running the Government.
 

bramling

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Peter Hitchens I think hits the nail right on the head this morning (my bold):

Whilst I very much agree with the undercurrent of this article, I'm not sure hospital visits is necessarily the topic to pick as the best example.

My thinking on this is rather influenced by being aware of a case in my (fairly) close circles where a vaccinated husband *was* allowed to visit his unvaccinated wife. He contracted Covid almost certainly from this exposure, and almost certainly passed it to his daughter (early 60s - unvaccinated - with cancer - carer for him) who subsequently passed away with Covid. I use the term "with" carefully, however in this case it does seem to have resulted in the daughter passing away much sooner than would otherwise have been the case, depending on the prospects for the cancer treatment. Unfortunately, when there's such careless and self-oriented individuals about, I think some form of restriction on hospital visits was largely unavoidable - before widespread vaccination at least. In this case this was in the early days of vaccination, the father was one of the first to get it.
 

nw1

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Peter Hitchens I think hits the nail right on the head this morning (my bold):

Except that in the next election, people will have long forgotten Covid issues I suspect, and I'd prefer a prime minister who has not manipulated us constantly in the past few years to further his own ends.

Personally I don't believe that Johnson is a new convert to moderation on Covid issues. To be honest, all along, Johnson has appeared to me to take the line on Covid that bests suits his own ends and probably doesn't have a particular opinion either way. Just like he probably doesn't have an opinion on Brexit either way, or anything else for that matter.

It was the policies of the Conservative Government, and the likes of Hancock, which caused 'Jenny' to do what she did. I'd like to see the tweet of Labour to make my own mind up about it, anyone got a link? I don't really trust Hitchens as a fair source.
 
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Bantamzen

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Whilst I very much agree with the undercurrent of this article, I'm not sure hospital visits is necessarily the topic to pick as the best example.

My thinking on this is rather influenced by being aware of a case in my (fairly) close circles where a vaccinated husband *was* allowed to visit his unvaccinated wife. He contracted Covid almost certainly from this exposure, and almost certainly passed it to his daughter (early 60s - unvaccinated - with cancer - carer for him) who subsequently passed away with Covid. I use the term "with" carefully, however in this case it does seem to have resulted in the daughter passing away much sooner than would otherwise have been the case, depending on the prospects for the cancer treatment. Unfortunately, when there's such careless and self-oriented individuals about, I think some form of restriction on hospital visits was largely unavoidable - before widespread vaccination at least. In this case this was in the early days of vaccination, the father was one of the first to get it.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the point @21C101 is making is of how humanity has taken a back seat for covid-phobia. In your example whilst it is entirely possible that the guy passed the virus from his wife to his daughter, it is also possible that this wasn't the source of infection. Yes some restrictions and / or measures were needed in the early days of the pandemic when it was unclear just how dangerous the virus was. However to deny any family member access to a loved one on the brink of death is inexcusable, especially when that same health service was quite willing to tip thousands of elderly, vulnerable people out of hospitals back into care homes without a by your leave.

I have never worked in healthcare, but I do know many that do & not one of them would be willing to deny someone that final goodbye to save their own skins. Quite honestly it makes me really angry that so many families were denied the chance to say goodbye during the pandemic.
 

duncanp

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I understand where you are coming from, but I think the point @21C101 is making is of how humanity has taken a back seat for covid-phobia. In your example whilst it is entirely possible that the guy passed the virus from his wife to his daughter, it is also possible that this wasn't the source of infection. Yes some restrictions and / or measures were needed in the early days of the pandemic when it was unclear just how dangerous the virus was. However to deny any family member access to a loved one on the brink of death is inexcusable, especially when that same health service was quite willing to tip thousands of elderly, vulnerable people out of hospitals back into care homes without a by your leave.

I have never worked in healthcare, but I do know many that do & not one of them would be willing to deny someone that final goodbye to save their own skins. Quite honestly it makes me really angry that so many families were denied the chance to say goodbye during the pandemic.

The hospital in question could quite easily have given the man whose wife was dying a lateral flow test, and made him wait in isolation until the result was known, which should only be a matter of minutes.

Then they could have allowed him to see his wife, after appropriate measures such as hand sanitising, and possibly a face covering.

As you say, there is a lot of COVID phobia around, and it is going to take a long time, possibly a couple of years, before it is all dispersed.
 

bramling

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I understand where you are coming from, but I think the point @21C101 is making is of how humanity has taken a back seat for covid-phobia. In your example whilst it is entirely possible that the guy passed the virus from his wife to his daughter, it is also possible that this wasn't the source of infection. Yes some restrictions and / or measures were needed in the early days of the pandemic when it was unclear just how dangerous the virus was. However to deny any family member access to a loved one on the brink of death is inexcusable, especially when that same health service was quite willing to tip thousands of elderly, vulnerable people out of hospitals back into care homes without a by your leave.

It's a difficult one for sure, as I imagine it's a fairly unusual situation for someone to be being cared-for by a CEV. In that situation, I'd not have visited though, or if I did then I'd ensure alternative arrangements were in place to ensure the daughter remained shielded. There's an element of "it won't happen to us" with some people, though, hence why I'd find it difficult pre-vaccines to justify not advocating some form of control on visits where the person being visited was a confirmed Covid case.

You're quite right it isn't absolutely definite the hospital visits were the cause of the cross-infection, however from what I gather it is very strongly suspected - by his own admission the father didn't follow the guidance he was given, and the timings match up perfectly. Naturally now vaccines are more widespread then this is all more academic.
 

21C101

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The hospital in question could quite easily have given the man whose wife was dying a lateral flow test, and made him wait in isolation until the result was known, which should only be a matter of minutes.

Then they could have allowed him to see his wife, after appropriate measures such as hand sanitising, and possibly a face covering.

As you say, there is a lot of COVID phobia around, and it is going to take a long time, possibly a couple of years, before it is all dispersed.
I think the point Mr Hitchens is trying to make is that if the rules/laws are inhumane, then it arguably becomes the duty of the citizen to disregard and subvert them.

The most obvious example is some recent cases where former guards at certain Godwinesque institions have recently been put on trial in their nineties, because they were conscripts who obeyed orders to act as such guards, that were at the time lawful.

(Personally I think that was going too far as if they hadn't they would have been summarily executed, rock and a hard place springs to mind).
 

317 forever

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I think it's excellent. Life becomes incredibly difficult when you can't go out and get supplies for days because you have to stay home despite feeling fine.

It should just be treated like a cold in future.
In this 1 respect, being forced to isolate is inhumane, although it does beyond that make sense even though it's hard.

Anyway, with the 7-day average of case numbers having halved, and patient numbers on ventilators having barely risen under Omicron, I feel we no longer need many Covid restrictions.
 
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