East Coast 2330 King's Cross-Leeds 40 minute delay

[benish]

Hi there, just after someone with a bit of knowledge of the railways to come up with a reason behind a bizzare routing last night!

Me and my mates went down to Wembley for the England match (from Leeds). We booked on the East Coast 2330 Kings Cross to leeds service. When we got to the station we noticed the train would be going via York. We were due to arrive at Leeds at 0237.
So we got to Doncaster and only then does the conductor/driver finally mention a stop at York (only prior knowledge of this was the departure board in Kings Cross, nothing on website, nothing on ticket, telephone salesman never mentioned it either). So we carried on to York where we sat for 10mins as the driver made his way to the other end of the train to go back down to Leeds.
Next thing we know were on Doncaster station again. The driver says were now going to Leeds and away we go. Why? What on earth was going on?
It took 25 mins back down to Donny and the same back upto Leeds where we then ahd to sit for around 15MINS at a red light. WHY?
We finally arrived at leeds at around 0320, and we were very peeved off. Ive never seen a train full of passengers so angry (train was very busy).

York to Leeds takes at best 30mins by car, surely a 100mph train on the York to Leeds line would have taken 20mins or less! (I think the train was a diesel 125?)
So why did this happen? Does anyone know anything/know of maintenance or anything going on?! In the past this exact service has gone straight to leeds from york. I think I'll be making a complaint to the operator, the lack of info was dire!

Cheers
Ben

 

[scotsman]

Hi there!

You seem to have got the times wrong.

The train arrived in Leeds at 0317 (10mins early)

Not only that, but this would have appeared in the timetables.

I'd imagine that this was for route knowledge purposes, but because of some unforseen circumstances (little help here lads? Emergency engineering works perhaps)

Oh, and it was a 125.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FYI

Headcode: 1D53 UID: G09890 17/11/2010 2330 London Kings Cross [KGX] to Leeds [LDS]
This Train is operated by East Coast.

Location FD Scheduled Arrival Scheduled Departure Expected Arrival Expected Departure Pl Lateness DR
London Kings Cross [KGX] 2330 2330 8 On time
KNGXBEL Pass 2332 Pass 2331 -1
Finsbury Park [FPK] Pass 2334 Pass 2334 On time
Harringay [HGY] Pass 2335 Pass 2338 3
Hornsey [HRN] Pass 2335 Pass 2340 5
Alexandra Palace [AAP] Pass 2336 Pass 2342 6
New Southgate [NSG] Pass 2337 Pass 2344 7
Oakleigh Park [OKL] Pass 2338 Pass 2345 7
New Barnet [NBA] Pass 2338 Pass 2346 8
Hadley Wood [HDW] Pass 2339 Pass 2347 8
Potters Bar [PBR] Pass 2341 Pass 2348 7
Brookmans Park [BPK] Pass 2341 Pass 2349 8
Welham Green [WMG] Pass 2342 Pass 2350 8
Hatfield [HAT] Pass 2343 Pass 2351 8
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] Pass 2345 Pass 2352 7
Welwyn North [WLW] Pass 2346 Pass 2353 7
WLMRGRN Pass 2347 Pass 2354 7
Knebworth [KBW] Pass 2347 Pass 2355 8
Stevenage [SVG] Pass 2350 Pass 2355 5
Hitchin [HIT] Pass 2358 Pass 2359 1
Arlesey [ARL] Pass 0004 Pass 0005 -1439
Biggleswade [BIW] Pass 0008 Pass 0010 -1438
Sandy [SDY] Pass 0012 Pass 0014 2
St Neots [SNO] Pass 0017 Pass 0019 -1438
Huntingdon [HUN] Pass 0021 Pass 0023 2
HOLME Pass 0022 Pass 0028 6
Peterborough [PBO] 0023 0034 2 11
HELPSTN Pass 0044 Pass 0046 2
TALNGTN Pass 0047 Pass 0050 3
SOKEJN Pass 0049 Pass 0103 14
Grantham [GRA] 0050 0107 2 17
CLPLLP Pass 0111 Pass 0117 6
Newark North Gate [NNG] 0114 0120 1 6
NWRKFC Pass 0118 Pass 0124 6
Retford [RET] Pass 0127 Pass 0134 7
DONCLCJ Pass 0134 Pass 0140 6
Doncaster [DON] 0144 0144 3 On time
SHFTHLJ Pass 0146 Pass 0150 4
KNTNGSJ Pass 0158 Pass No log
KNTNGWJ Pass 0200 Pass No log
FERYBDG Pass 0201 Pass No log
MILFDY Pass 0211 Pass No log
Church Fenton [CHF] Pass 0214 Pass No log
COLTONJ Pass 0220 Pass 0202 -18
York [YRK] 0227 0206 10 -21
COLTONJ Pass 0240 Pass 0221 -19
Church Fenton [CHF] Pass 0246 Pass No log
MILFDY Pass 0257 Pass No log
Castleford [CFD] Pass 0303 Pass No log
WHWDJN Pass 0305 Pass No log
METHLYJ Pass 0311 Pass No log
ESJLEDS Pass 0322 Pass No log
LEEDSWJ Pass 0323 Pass No log
Leeds [LDS] 0327 0317 -10

The highlighted area is the route your train should have taken, but for some reason didn't.

 

[bradders1983]

Hi there!

You seem to have got the times wrong.

The train arrived in Leeds at 0317 (10mins early)

Not only that, but this would have appeared in the timetables.

I'd imagine that this was for route knowledge purposes, but because of some unforseen circumstances (little help here lads? Emergency engineering works perhaps)

Oh, and it was a 125.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FYI

Headcode: 1D53 UID: G09890 17/11/2010 2330 London Kings Cross [KGX] to Leeds [LDS]
This Train is operated by East Coast.

Location FD Scheduled Arrival Scheduled Departure Expected Arrival Expected Departure Pl Lateness DR
London Kings Cross [KGX] 2330 2330 8 On time
KNGXBEL Pass 2332 Pass 2331 -1
Finsbury Park [FPK] Pass 2334 Pass 2334 On time
Harringay [HGY] Pass 2335 Pass 2338 3
Hornsey [HRN] Pass 2335 Pass 2340 5
Alexandra Palace [AAP] Pass 2336 Pass 2342 6
New Southgate [NSG] Pass 2337 Pass 2344 7
Oakleigh Park [OKL] Pass 2338 Pass 2345 7
New Barnet [NBA] Pass 2338 Pass 2346 8
Hadley Wood [HDW] Pass 2339 Pass 2347 8
Potters Bar [PBR] Pass 2341 Pass 2348 7
Brookmans Park [BPK] Pass 2341 Pass 2349 8
Welham Green [WMG] Pass 2342 Pass 2350 8
Hatfield [HAT] Pass 2343 Pass 2351 8
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] Pass 2345 Pass 2352 7
Welwyn North [WLW] Pass 2346 Pass 2353 7
WLMRGRN Pass 2347 Pass 2354 7
Knebworth [KBW] Pass 2347 Pass 2355 8
Stevenage [SVG] Pass 2350 Pass 2355 5
Hitchin [HIT] Pass 2358 Pass 2359 1
Arlesey [ARL] Pass 0004 Pass 0005 -1439
Biggleswade [BIW] Pass 0008 Pass 0010 -1438
Sandy [SDY] Pass 0012 Pass 0014 2
St Neots [SNO] Pass 0017 Pass 0019 -1438
Huntingdon [HUN] Pass 0021 Pass 0023 2
HOLME Pass 0022 Pass 0028 6
Peterborough [PBO] 0023 0034 2 11
HELPSTN Pass 0044 Pass 0046 2
TALNGTN Pass 0047 Pass 0050 3
SOKEJN Pass 0049 Pass 0103 14
Grantham [GRA] 0050 0107 2 17
CLPLLP Pass 0111 Pass 0117 6
Newark North Gate [NNG] 0114 0120 1 6
NWRKFC Pass 0118 Pass 0124 6
Retford [RET] Pass 0127 Pass 0134 7
DONCLCJ Pass 0134 Pass 0140 6
Doncaster [DON] 0144 0144 3 On time
SHFTHLJ Pass 0146 Pass 0150 4
KNTNGSJ Pass 0158 Pass No log
KNTNGWJ Pass 0200 Pass No log
FERYBDG Pass 0201 Pass No log
MILFDY Pass 0211 Pass No log
Church Fenton [CHF] Pass 0214 Pass No log
COLTONJ Pass 0220 Pass 0202 -18
York [YRK] 0227 0206 10 -21
COLTONJ Pass 0240 Pass 0221 -19
Church Fenton [CHF] Pass 0246 Pass No log
MILFDY Pass 0257 Pass No log
Castleford [CFD] Pass 0303 Pass No log
WHWDJN Pass 0305 Pass No log
METHLYJ Pass 0311 Pass No log
ESJLEDS Pass 0322 Pass No log
LEEDSWJ Pass 0323 Pass No log
Leeds [LDS] 0327 0317 -10

The highlighted area is the route your train should have taken, but for some reason didn't.

Is this the train that only sets down at every stop? I was under the presumption it didnt go to York either, but took a route not via Wakefield W to get to Leeds? Bit bizarre for it to go to York, then back to Doncaster again??!!

 

[TheBigD]

NX are (were?) sponsors of some description of the England team. When they had the franchise they used to run extra's for the football and alter the 2330 ex KX as well. No doubt that the extra stop at York is a hangover from the NX days.

Just a thought!

 

[bradders1983]

NX are (were?) sponsors of some description of the England team. When they had the franchise they used to run extra's for the football and alter the 2330 ex KX as well. No doubt that the extra stop at York is a hangover from the NX days.

Just a thought!

Doesnt explain the routing down to Doncaster again though.

 

[Welshman]

I was under the impression that to allow for engineering possessions and for route retention purposes it went via Knottingley, Calder Bridge Junction and Normanton, and was scheduled into Leeds at 0237.
You certainly had a mystery tour on your trip!

 

[yorkie]

Hi there!

You seem to have got the times wrong.

The train arrived in Leeds at 0317 (10mins early)

No. The train arrived late! As you appear to be rail staff or have been given info from rail staff, you should know this

The train was due at 02:37 and it arrived at 03:17. I make that 40 minutes late. The OP is able to claim 50% of the single ticket cost back as compensation, if he held an Advance single, or 25% of the return ticket cost (ie half of the return portion) if he held a return ticket.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter1/Delay-Repay/

 

[Failed Unit]

If you look on East Coast timetable for that day it was a planned stop at York for the football so the timetable was altered accordingly. Good for England fans in York not good for Leeds. So it wasn't late that night

 

[YorkshireRider]

It was on the website for a number of weeks that this train would be making an additional stop at York because of the football with an ammended arrival time into Leeds of 0325. Why the signaller put it that route i dont know, maybe the paths were clear of any frieght so it was the best route??

 

[yorkie]

It was on the website for a number of weeks that this train would be making an additional stop at York because of the football with an ammended arrival time into Leeds of 0325. Why the signaller put it that route i dont know, maybe the paths were clear of any frieght so it was the best route??

That's odd because the EC website said that there were "no alterations" that day, unless they removed it the following day?

benish - did you book online? If so, log in to your account (or find the original email) to check what the booking confirmation said the arrival time should have been.

It was on the website for a number of weeks that this train would be making an additional stop at York because of the football with an ammended arrival time into Leeds of 0325. Why the signaller put it that route i dont know, maybe the paths were clear of any frieght so it was the best route??

The best route would be via Garforth but this is often closed at night and trains tend to go via Castleford, which is the 2nd best route. In the event of neither route being available then it would have to be back to Doncaster to reverse. (Harrogate is not an option as the crew won't know the route and the manual signal boxes would be closed).

 

[YorkshireRider]

The EC website doesnt show alterations once that day has passed, yes Garforth would be the best route but was obviously not possible, it could have been the driver or guard did not pass Castleford because they had not had any recent route learning that way. Bit puzzaling why it stood outside Leeds for so long though, no shortage of platforms at that time??

 

[DannyBoy]

Hi all,

The East Coast website did clearly say of the alteration (due to the football), and the amended arrival time at Leeds. However, I see it's no longer there.

Obviously, Leeds is where the depot is, so to terminate it there seems fair enough, but I think it's a blatent disregard for the regular customers of that service, no matter how many use it, that they should be expected to sit an extra hour on the train at that hour to please some football fans from York, and to please the TOC. The OP is well within his rights to feel peed-off, but I doubt theres nothing they can do, since the change was advertised on the website.

Very odd.

 

[Aictos]

No. The train arrived late! As you appear to be rail staff or have been given info from rail staff, you should know this

The train was due at 02:37 and it arrived at 03:17. I make that 40 minutes late. The OP is able to claim 50% of the single ticket cost back as compensation, if he held an Advance single, or 25% of the return ticket cost (ie half of the return portion) if he held a return ticket.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter1/Delay-Repay/

No Yorkie, you are wrong for once as I've checked the TRUST schedule for 1D53 which was the 2330 Kings Cross to Leeds on the 17/11/10 and it clearly states the train has been revised to arrive at Leeds at 0327 and as luck would have it, it actually arrived at 0317 so basically arrived 10 minutes earlier so no operator in their right mind would offer compo and would be rightly laughed at.

I guess the OP didn't check if the times for their train was going to be revised as East Coast as do ATOC and all other TOCs advertise engineering works on their sites and it's down to the passenger to check if any engineering works affect their journey.

 

[yorkie]

But, as I said in a later post, it really does depend on when this change was advertised and when the OP booked.

If tickets were released before the change, and if the OP has a booking confirmation showing the 0237 arrival, then I believe they are entitled to compensation. If not, then he isn't. I do not know if either of these is the case as the OP has not been back to tell us!

Changes to the schedule can happen at any time, sometimes just hours before departure. OK, so we now know it was known"weeks" in advance, but how many weeks? I've booked tickets that have then had the times changed between date of booking and date of travel. It can happen!

 

[87015]

As it was for operational convenience rather than engineering work an extension of more than 30 minutes is very naughty and, although I don't know about East Coast in particular (perhaps as a long-distance operator they'll be allowed longer), would be service requirement busting for other TOCs and compensation would be due. Certainly against ATOC service guidlines...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thanks to a friend looking this up on TRUST for me, I can confirm the following route, and timings, took place on Wednesday night:
Headcode: 1D53
Doncaster 0141
Milford (PASS): 0211
York: 0227-0235
Castleford (PASS): 0303
Leeds: 0325

 

[benish]

Hi guys, thanks for all your replies.

I took the advise of 'Yorkie' and I spoke to East Coast about a 'delay repay'. At first she did say the train was on time as some have mentioned, but given the date I booked my ticket (back end of september) the arrival time on my ticket/booking stated 0237 and therefore it was late.
I had not been advised by e-mail, letter, phone etc of any changes so I wasn't to know. I didn't think to check the website for updates, no one prompts customers to do so!

Anyway the lady on the phone said I should be entitled to some compo, and she also explained that due to high winds blowing leaves on the line, hence making it slippery, the driver diverted! (Not sure if that is an official reason or her reckoning!)

Out of interest is 1D53 the reg mark of the train I was on or just a service name?!

Thanks again!

Ben

(I see the thread title was renamed, my apologies for the original!)

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of interest is 1D53 the reg mark of the train I was on or just a service name?!

That is the headcode and is used to describe a train, it is unique (I think) to the service that it relates to (so the service you were on would always be 1D53) rather than the train that actually runs it. The trains themselves have a descriptor for the specific set (loco+coaches) as well as numbers relating to the locomotive and coaching stock individually.

 

[MCR247]

Headcodes are reused and I'd be surprised if there wasn't another 1D53

 

[ainsworth74]

Headcodes are reused and I'd be surprised if there wasn't another 1D53

Fair enough, wasn't too sure on that point.

 

[yorkie]

benish - that's good news, thanks for letting us know

MRC247 - you're right, but there won't be another 1D53 on East Coast (the TOC or the route).

Other 1D53s:

1D53     Birmingham New Street [BHM]  0749    Nottingham [NOT]    0905
1D53     Crewe [CRE]                  0923    Chester [CTR]       0946
1D53     London Paddington [PAD]      1718    Oxford [OXF]        1845
1D53     London Waterloo [WAT]        1824    Dorking [DKG]       1913
1D53     London Kings Cross [KGX]     2330    Leeds [LDS]         0230

 

[MCR247]

How did you find those out?

 

[jd]

Headcodes are unique in the area in question, but there may be other trains with the same headcode elsewhere in the country.

There's also some sort of logic to them, though I don't understand it fully. It might be on wikipedia. The first number is a train type, e.g. 1 is a fast/intercity/long distance train, 2 a more local/regional/commuter train, 5 is ECS. 0B00 is a replacement bus.

 

[thefab444]

Headcodes *are* unique, because in full they are 10 characters long. However, for ease of use they are generally shortened to 4 characters long, which as mentioned means there are duplicates.

The logic is:

0 - Light engine or replacement bus
1 - Express passenger
2 - Stopping passenger
3 - Priority ECS (sometimes also used for RHTT and test trains)
4 - 75mph Freight
5 - Normal ECS
6 - 60mph Freight
7 - 45mph Freight
8 - 35mph Freight
9 - Under 35mph Freight (also used for Eurostar services)

The letter after this denotes either a particular route within an area, or a cross-area service:

E - to Eastern region
L - to Anglian region
M - to Midland region
O - to Southern region
S - to Scottish region
V - to Western region

Q - test train working
X - abnormal width working
Z - short term plan working

The two numbers after are random.

 

[Legzr1]

Class 4 and 6 aren't strictly correct in that list

 

[E&W Lucas]

The letter after this denotes either a particular route within an area, or a cross-area service:

E - to Eastern region
L - to Anglian region
M - to Midland region
O - to Southern region
S - to Scottish region
V - to Western region

Q - test train working
X - abnormal width working
Z - short term plan working

The two numbers after are random.

Not quite right either, but you're sort of got the idea. The letter indicates general destination, but for a particular route and operator. You'll find several letters in use on a route. You'd soon run out of headcodes if everything heading to the Southern had to have an "S" in it. The numbers aren't random, but are sequential through the day.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The numbers relate to the service and are sequential. If a line goes from a to b for instance, trains from a to b will start at 00 and increment by 2 and trains from b to a will start at 01 and increment by 2. This, of course is an example.

When I did a stint in train planning (work ex) I certainly didn't see any 10 character headcodes and they weren't like that on the system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm also not sure about your description of class 9. Incidentally, 9 is also the class used for London overground services.

 

[jd]

Not quite right either, but you're sort of got the idea. The letter indicates general destination, but for a particular route and operator. You'll find several letters in use on a route. You'd soon run out of headcodes if everything heading to the Southern had to have an "S" in it. The numbers aren't random, but are sequential through the day.

Yes, you seem to be right. I was looking at trains on the Snow Hill lines in the West Midlands - it seems trains towards Whitlocks End and Stratford have an 'S', trains to Dorridge a 'C', trains to Stourbridge a 'J', Kidderminster a 'K', and Malvern or Worcester a 'V'. Trains terminating at Snow Hill (LM) have a 'B', and Chiltern trains to London have a 'H', from London a 'G'.

 

[33056]

494M00CE22

Example of a full headcode (4M00 0901 Ipswich Griffin Wharf to Hams Hall)
49 = identifies area from which it originated
4 = class of train
M = Train to "Midland Region" originating from another region
00 = Identifying number
C = Company train (for most timetabled passenger trains this is M for Mandatory)
E = ? Will have to bow to somebody's superior knowledge on this one.
22 = Day that train started it's journey (ie today 22/11/2010)

As for re-using numbers, try 2N04 - there are at least 17 of them, including repetitions on a couple of routes!

Ralph, class 9s are only used on the East London Line; the North London and Euston - Watford DC lines use conventional class 2s (including the Bakerloo services)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

ions on a couple of routes!

Ralph, class 9s are only used on the East London Line; the North London and Euston - Watford DC lines use conventional class 2s (including the Bakerloo services)

Ah right. When I went to London Bridge Box I saw that all LO services on the panel were 9x and assumed that it was like that for the whole line